Wizards vs Boston Sunday 8PM ESPN

[VictorPage44]

^^^^^
because blatche didnt actually do anything wrong- so the "negative reinforcement" doesnt really apply. It was more like, "my coach just took a **** on me".

[LyricalRico]

I agree with the chorus that takes issue with what Saunders said -- the part about him being way to deferential to KG.

But I wonder why it's OK for Bruce Boudreau to call out individual Caps player publicly all the time, but it's the unpardonable sin for Flip to do it. I'm not a particularly negative guy, but I recognize that negative reinforcement does have its place and can be very effective.

Parcells called Terry Glenn "she" and Glenn became a "Parcells guy" for his entire career. Bob Knight and Coach K routinely eviscerated their players in plain view on the sideline and got pretty decent results. Phil Jackson has always been publicly critical of his guys when warranted.

Just asking the question -- why the need to treat these guys with kid gloves?

IMO it's not what Flip said or who he said it about. Once the group latches on to a guy's potential, anybody who says otherwise (coaches, GMs, other posters, etc) must be flamed. Maybe they each use different criteria to fall in love with a guy (wingspan, footspeed, ability to score 20 points once a month in a losing effort) but the result is the same - once they decide they know something everybody else doesn't, get out of their way.

If Flip had said those things about Nick Young last night, people would be agreeing with him. Why? Because the board has finally decided that Young is a bum. But a year ago Young would have been defended to the last because back then most still believed he was a future All-Star. Heck, this could be a championship team but if a really athletic second round pick is racking up DNP's, you can believe somebody's going to gripe about the coaches lineup decisions. Anything to vindicate "their guy".

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Yeah, I agree that Flip was in the wrong for criticizing Blatche.

Moreover, as I've said before in this forum, I think the "don't talk trash, lest we wake the dragon" strategy is a loser strategy. I'm not saying that all winners talk trash - some do (Bird, Jordan); some don't (Dream, Duncan). But I can't think of any winners who didn't talk trash (or return trash-talk in kind) for fear of antagonizing his opponent.

Flip shouldn't be encouraging Blatche to back down from KG, just because KG is "a guy that's been defensive player of the year and is probably the best power forward." If Blatche is going to be a legit player in this league, then he needs to be able to take it to the KGs of the league, *especially* when they're "juiced up to play against" him. If Blatche is a trash-talker, let him talk trash. If Blatche is a "strong, silent" type, then let *him* decide when and where to respond to an opponent's woofing.

thats what makes me mad. I love the fact that Blatche stood up to him and was not giving in yet Flip is probably going to now turn Dray into a punk. Now if any player challanges him he will never say or do anything back. He is not why we lost this game anymore than he was the reason why we blew the Raps game at the end. He was our best guy in both games

I've been feeling this way about Flip since November. He's been routinely calling out young guys and taking away their minutes, opportunities, and ultimately their confidence. Blatche has been MUCH BETTER THAN FLIP this season.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I agree with the chorus that takes issue with what Saunders said -- the part about him being way to deferential to KG.

But I wonder why it's OK for Bruce Boudreau to call out individual Caps player publicly all the time, but it's the unpardonable sin for Flip to do it. I'm not a particularly negative guy, but I recognize that negative reinforcement does have its place and can be very effective.

Parcells called Terry Glenn "she" and Glenn became a "Parcells guy" for his entire career. Bob Knight and Coach K routinely eviscerated their players in plain view on the sideline and got pretty decent results. Phil Jackson has always been publicly critical of his guys when warranted.

Just asking the question -- why the need to treat these guys with kid gloves?

IMO it's not what Flip said or who he said it about. Once the group latches on to a guy's potential, anybody who says otherwise (coaches, GMs, other posters, etc) must be flamed. Maybe they each use different criteria to fall in love with a guy (wingspan, footspeed, ability to score 20 points once a month in a losing effort) but the result is the same - once they decide they know something everybody else doesn't, get out of their way.

If Flip had said those things about Nick Young last night, people would be agreeing with him. Why? Because the board has finally decided that Young is a bum. But a year ago Young would have been defended to the last because back then most still believed he was a future All-Star. Heck, this could be a championship team but if a really athletic second round pick is racking up DNP's, you can believe somebody's going to gripe about the coaches lineup decisions. Anything to vindicate "their guy".

LR, I'm still not convinced Young can't be decent. He sure looked that way against Wade this season. Flip pretty much went away from him 2 games later. I'm more convinced Flip has demotivated or discouraged Young than I am that Young's a bum.

[Kanyewest]

I didn't witness the entire collapse- I was watching it when the Wizards were still up 4-5. The key plays that caused the downfall.

- Rondo or KG missing a free throw, a loose ball foul was committed by Boston that of course wasn't called abd but Ray Allen nails an open 3

- With the Wizards up by a point, Mike Miller secured an offensive rebound and was tripped up and no loose ball was called. Sure, people can criticize Foye for taking/missing the shot but IMO it was a good look and he had made the previous shot to put the Wizards up.

- With the Wizards down by 1 in the final minute of the game, Blatche took a HORRIBLE post up jumper on Garnett. In any other part of the game, that would have been an OK play but the refs were not going to call a foul on KG at Boston against the "lowly" Wizards. Wizards would have been best served to move the ball around, while I give blatche props for having the courage to take that shot, the play should not have gone to him IMO.

- While bad officiating may have cost the Wizards, I believe a big reason why the Wizards had this collapse was because the Wizards went to a very VERY short rotation. Since Josh Howard is injured, the Wizards are going to have to suck it up and play Nick Young for more than 3 minutes.

[Tyrone Messby]

I've been a supporter of Flip this season, but this was a total douche move on his part. I hope Blatche is man enough to come back from this and continue playing like a beast. If Flip somehow damaged him with this bs move I'm going to be extremely pissed. What exactly was the point of this? Blatche and McGee dominated KG. He had his worst game since 96. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he didn't do anything really of consequence in the final 6 minutes. If anyone won that game for the Celtics it was Ray Allen and the refs. Man I'm praying Blatche comes back from this stronger, and maybe Flip thought this would light a fire under him..but this was not the game to do it. Maybe if Blatche got worked all game then it would be warranted, but when you help limit the man to 0-7 from fg range, it makes no sense. And I really do worry about this fiasco because the Wizards have basically exhausted all other possibilities in ruining a star's career. This would be just another inventive way. Maybe that is why I'm so pissed off at this situation, because it is completely within the realm of possibility that a once promising star gets called out after a terrific game and tunes out the coach for the rest of the season and reverts to his old ways.

[Kanyewest]

Flip isn't going to criticize guys like Foye and Miller since he was one of the biggest proponents of that trade. But one of those two was guarding Ray Allen down the stretch and wasn't doing a very good job. Dare I say Nick Young could have guarded Ray Allen down the stretch.

[hands11]

Blatche can say all he wants that he was "standing up for himself as a man". The best way to do that is to win the game. The bottom line is that KG still got the best of him because his team won. It's easy to talk junk when you're up by 10. It's much harder to hit buckets down the stretch on the road, which is why it's more important than running your mouth.

Can we play amateur psychologists and say that public criticism is the wrong way to go with a young player? Sure, and maybe we'd be right. But I guarantee that if Blatche had hit a couple more shots in the 4th and led the team to victory instead of getting a tight sphincter when the game was on the line, Flip's comments to the media would have been different.

Dray told him to stop kissing him. I have no problem with that. Do I wish the team would have responder better as a group. Of course.

But I hardly blame Dray. Had Miller, Foye, McGee, or AT made that last shot, none of us would be talking about this.

We just saw how this team handled MILs pressure. We shouldn't be surprised they had a hard time once Boston tightened things up. Dray is a go to player but against that kind of D, you need more then one. Allen beat us, not KG.

They played well. One national TV. Dray played well. McGee played well for McGee.

To many posters on here are like leaves. They blow with the wind. And yet they ask the player to stand tall.

[hands11]

I didn't witness the entire collapse- I was watching it when the Wizards were still up 4-5. The key plays that caused the downfall.

- Rondo or KG missing a free throw, a loose ball foul was committed by Boston that of course wasn't called abd but Ray Allen nails an open 3

- With the Wizards up by a point, Mike Miller secured an offensive rebound and was tripped up and no loose ball was called. Sure, people can criticize Foye for taking/missing the shot but IMO it was a good look and he had made the previous shot to put the Wizards up.

- With the Wizards down by 1 in the final minute of the game, Blatche took a HORRIBLE post up jumper on Garnett. In any other part of the game, that would have been an OK play but the refs were not going to call a foul on KG at Boston against the "lowly" Wizards. Wizards would have been best served to move the ball around, while I give blatche props for having the courage to take that shot, the play should not have gone to him IMO.

- While bad officiating may have cost the Wizards, I believe a big reason why the Wizards had this collapse was because the Wizards went to a very VERY short rotation. Since Josh Howard is injured, the Wizards are going to have to suck it up and play Nick Young for more than 3 minutes.

Or at least Livingston for more then zero minutes.

I really pray Flip gets word of all these posts one way or another. I haven't been way down on him nor way up on him but I think this is a down moment and he needs to take a look in the mirror. Hopefully he realizes he messed up and talk to Dray and the team about it. He chocked tonight also.

People mess up sometimes. Its what they do about it that counts the most.

[fishercob]

^^^^^
because blatche didnt actually do anything wrong- so the "negative reinforcement" doesnt really apply. It was more like, "my coach just took a **** on me".

I disagree. Flip's comments were indeed out of line, but that's because of the loony KG praise. But I think Blatche did in fact "do something wrong." He let KG get under his skin and into his head. KG's dragging one leg behind him, didn't make a shot all night; the best he could do to help his team that night was to take the other team's best player out of the game mentally. It's exactly what Deshawn did to Lebron at the VC earlier this year with the same result. DRay got drawn into a personal battle, and took some baaaad shots in an effort to show his manhood. He got played.

It happens. It's part of growing up. Anyone who has older or younger siblings knows it. Dray will be going it to some of Shawn Kemp's kids in a few years. But I think Dray would admit that KG took him out of his game, and allowing him to do so was his big mistake.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

The content of Flip's comment is completely out of bounds for a coach. Basically telling a player not to aggressively challenge another player because he is a good defender can lead to nothing but passivity and lack of confidence.

I remember a great UVa-MD game when Buck Williams, during a key possession, got two straight shots blocked by Ralph Sampson, but went up strong for the third try, scored the fg and got fouled. It sent a message to Virginia that MD wasn't going to back down. I remember Lefty singing Buck's praises for it after the game.... which, not coincidentally, MD won.

Go to bloody coaching school Flip... that kind of call out is a no-brainer no-no in coaching 101. You WANT your players to be aggressive.

[Wizards2Lottery]

But I wonder why it's OK for Bruce Boudreau to call out individual Caps player publicly all the time, but it's the unpardonable sin for Flip to do it. I'm not a particularly negative guy, but I recognize that negative reinforcement does have its place and can be very effective.

The only person that Boudreau calls out on a weekly basis is Eric Fehr and he never maligns him and puts him down with stuff like "we pissed all over ourselves". Flip never takes the blame on himself and always hands it out to EVERYONE but himself. Where was he talking about Randy Foye and his god awful shot selection or his own dumb decision to have Mike Miller be the one chasing Ray Allen through multiple screens.

This isn't a first time thing with Flip.

[fishercob]

Just following up my previous post on the subject, Mikey Prada got some great follow-up from quotes on the Blatche/KG thing:

"[Garnett] gets more frustrated with guys like Tim Duncan who don't talk back to him," Saunders said. "Guys that talk back to him, he feels like he's getting inside their heads. It motivates him. It gets his juices flowing."

I decided to ask Saunders why he elected to, in my words, "challenge" Blatche when some coaches always defend their own player in similar situations. Here's what Saunders said.

"The bottom line is to win the game," Saunders said. "There might be personal agendas within the game, but the proof in the pudding is that Garnett won. In the last six minutes, Dray didn't score, had three turnovers, went to three different spots offensively, so [Garnett] clearly got to him from that standpoint."

I agree 100%. I disagree with the kissing of KG's ass, but whatever.

By the way, for all who consider themselves cerebral Wizards fans, you must be reading BUlletsForever.com and/or following them on Twitter.

[Wizards2Lottery]

How much of Blatche's struggles late in the game came from the fact that Randy Foye never bothered to get him the ball down low? Rewind the game and look at it, Foye had Blatche down low and just decided to go one on one and be a fourth quarter hero.

Flip is making it out sound like we just lost game seven of the ECF. It's not that serious and he has no reason to be blasting his own guy while sucking up to KG.

[Donkey McDonkerton]

Just following up my previous post on the subject, Mikey Prada got some great follow-up from quotes on the Blatche/KG thing:

"[Garnett] gets more frustrated with guys like Tim Duncan who don't talk back to him," Saunders said. "Guys that talk back to him, he feels like he's getting inside their heads. It motivates him. It gets his juices flowing."

I decided to ask Saunders why he elected to, in my words, "challenge" Blatche when some coaches always defend their own player in similar situations. Here's what Saunders said.

"The bottom line is to win the game," Saunders said. "There might be personal agendas within the game, but the proof in the pudding is that Garnett won. In the last six minutes, Dray didn't score, had three turnovers, went to three different spots offensively, so [Garnett] clearly got to him from that standpoint."

I agree 100%. I disagree with the kissing of KG's ass, but whatever.

By the way, for all who consider themselves cerebral Wizards fans, you must be reading BUlletsForever.com and/or following them on Twitter.

Yep, and Mike posts here too.....

[montestewart]

By the way, for all who consider themselves cerebral Wizards fans, you must be reading BUlletsForever.com and/or following them on Twitter.

No one's ever implied I was a cerebral anything, but fortunately, Bullets Forever is a great site for regular Joes too. And I like that he visits here as well.