The Javale McGee Appreciation Thread

[closg00]

TSW Cherry-picked the numbers and he provided HIS context for the numbers as did you. I provided my own.

[Ruzious]

TSW Cherry-picked the numbers and he provided HIS context for the numbers as did you. I provided my own.

Yeah, Kev is a cherry-picking sunofagun. He chose to use the most obscure of stats, such as points, rebounds, blocks, turnovers, usage, offensive rating, defensive rating, efg, TS%, FT%, and PER - not stats that knowledgable basketball fans would use - like umm.... assists - which Jav is up there in Etan Thomas territory. Ummm, how exactly did he cherry-pick???

[Ruzious]

TSW Cherry-picked the numbers and he provided HIS context for the numbers as did you. I provided my own.

Yeah, Kev is a cherry-picking sunofagun. He chose to use the most obscure of stats, such as points, rebounds, blocks, turnovers, usage, offensive rating, defensive rating, efg, TS%, FT%, and PER - not stats that knowledgable basketball fans would use - like umm.... assists - which Jav is up there in Etan Thomas territory. Ummm, how exactly did he cherry-pick???

[fishercob]

TSW Cherry-picked the numbers and he provided HIS context for the numbers as did you. I provided my own.

Are you Pam McGee?

[TheSecretWeapon]

This is fascinating. I cherry-picked numbers to make McGee look BETTER! People are arguing that McGee is somehow a good center. He's NOT. He might be one day. He shows flashes of good play. But, even when I take the numbers MOST FAVORABLE TO MCGEE, he STILL doesn't compare to quality NBA centers. And those numbers aren't even considering his defense, which is atrocious! He hasn't been mismanaged by anyone but himself.

As for WizarDynasty's "argument," you may think you've laid out a case that Haywood is bottom third or whatever, but you're preposterously, idiotically, delusionally wrong. Haywood is actually a net contributor on the offensive end despite not having a fluid post-up game because he's a) low usage; b) he sets excellent screens; c) he grabs lots of offensive rebounds; and d) he converts inside because he usually doesn't take bad shots. His career offensive rating is roughly 7 points per 100 possessions better than the league average during his career.

In fact, since 1978-79 (when the NBA began collecting the stats necessary to calculate offensive rating), Haywood's offensive rating (114 points produced per 100 possessions) ranks 8th among centers with at least 10,000 career minutes. Assuredly, his offensive rating is boosted by the fact that he's low usage. However, his ortg is better than many other low usage centers. The contention that he is "a way below offensive player" is false.

WizarDynasty's claims about Haywood's defense are also mostly wrong. Haywood is not a good defensive rebounder. Not horrible, but not good either. It would be better if he was better on the defensive glass, but he more than makes up for it by forcing misses. And, forcing misses is BY FAR the most important factor in NBA defense. In addition, Haywood is an excellent help defender, does a great job challenging shots on the perimeter when he's required to rotate, and is one of the league's better defenders at the rim. Claims otherwise betray a serious lack of knowledge.

This thread is a celebration of how mcgee looks eons better protecting the rim than haywood. Mcgee is also a better help defender and three times better defending the perimeter.
That boy mcgee can play is all ready better than haywood. I never liked brenda as a starter and guess what he is gone. Let's celebrate significant upgrade of defense at center. That boy mcgee can play.

This quote is testament to blind ignorance. It's staggering how many erroneous statements can be jammed into 6 short sentences.

[pancakes3]

every day, i pour out a splash of my malt liquor for haywood.

[dangermouse]

Haywood is a bottom tier non playoff center that would be a bench player on top 8 teams.

Ok, lets see about that, top 4 teams from each confrence. Note: im throwing team chemistry and current injuries out of the window in this.

Lakers: He might not make starter here. Id say it would be 50/50. But a front line of Wood and Gasol would be scary. I say theyd go for it and bench Bynum for the year.

Dallas: ...

Denver: Definitely would start.

Utah: I think their need is more at SF, but he would probably still start here just because he can defend the post unlike Okur.

Cleveland: Ok, he probably wouldnt start here. But its not a talent issue here.

Orlando: Here it is a talent issue. This is the only team in the top 8 where he wouldnt start based on talent.

Boston: Start.

Atlanta: Ditto.

WizDynasty, good defense isnt about spectacular blocks. Haywood had the smarts and the beef to defend the post. And i dont see how you think hes a poor rebounder, look at his numbers. McGee is a worse rebounder, he doesnt make an effort to box out or fight for position. He relies on athletecism, and has probably done so his whole life. You cant get by on that alone playing C on an NBA team. He needs to hit the weight room with his ipod loaded with game tapes.

[montestewart]

Even if I don't really agree with it, I understand the prior post about the "cherry picking" of the numbers offered to show how bad McGee is. It's not so much ignoring the numbers, but the feeling that McGee has lacked both coaching and enough PT (even garbage time) to develop his game, and suddenly held to a standard against veterans that perhaps got a better window in which to develop. Still, you just can't ignore McGee's obvious issues, and the numbers help illustrate that these issues remain.

I'm still quite excited about McGee's potential, and I think the Wizards need to aggressively try to maximize their investment: a better big man coach for starters, and really, maybe you can't make McGee do things right, but just as with the Wizards medical staff, I often wonder about the organization's motivational techniques, or whether they even have any. Sure, you can say "He's an adult and a professional, and it should be on him to develop and give the effort," and to an extent that's true, but if he doesn't, whether from lack of coaching, maturity, motivation, or whatever, it's not just his loss, because the Wizards wasted a 1st round pick, millions in salary, and years of development time and roster space. Many players come to the NBA lacking maturity; to be blind to that and unprepared to deal with that is just foolishness.

As to comparing McGee to Haywood, I posted this in December (excuse me for quoting myself):

The defensive rebounding issue is a straw man argument; since 04-05, the Wizards defensive rebounding percentage is marginally ( about .001%) worse than their opponents, and the years where the Wizards were marginally better or worse than their opponents don't correspond to increased/decreased minutes or defensive rebounding percentage for Haywood. The Wizards take and miss more shots, so their opponents always get a higher raw number of defensive rebounds, and these Wizards have always had poor perimeter defense, so opponents tend to take more 3-point shots and outside shots in general, producing more long rebounds that someone other than the man under the basket will get.

See post above; Haywood boxes out. Other than his size, he's not extraordinarily physically gifted, as is demonstrated any time he puts the ball on the floor, clangs a FT, etc., but he understands the game and his role and generally maximizes his abilities. Other than his rookie year (his best overall rebounding year) all of Jamison's best defensive rebounding per minute numbers have come since he arrived in DC. All of Butler's best defensive rebounding per minute numbers are since he arrived in DC. I don't think they suddenly upped their production because they saw they had to cover for the weak rebounding Haywood. If Haywood was the backup center on half the teams in the league, he'd be the starter without a competition. Boston and Orlando don't need him, but Cleveland and San Antonio would be better with him, as would Dallas, Phoenix, Miami, and quite a few other teams that beat the Wizards on a regular basis. Even LA would likely be better off this year (especially with Artest out) with him rather than with Bynum.

McGee has natural ability beyond anything Haywood could dream of and can do things right now that Haywood could never do, but he's got a long way to go to be as good a center as Haywood.

PS: I'm not so sure Haywood would automatically start over Perkins in Boston, but either way, they'd have a powerful (and for now underpaid) tandem.

[dangermouse]

Only just saw highlights of the Rockets game, but i saw Scola bumped McGee out of the way for 2. How many of Scola's 23 came that way? Come on WizDynasty i thought this kid was a defensive beast? Until he gets stronger, stands his ground, learns to shrug off contact and give it back just as much, and doesnt bite on head fakes and try to block every shot with his arm pit then he just isnt going to cut the mustard as a post defender.

[WizarDynasty]

As long as mcgee continues to study tapes of pau gasol pratice using customized 40lb vmax weightvest and continue developing his iso handles dribbling far from his body and to his side not in front ..basically mimic blatche he will reach his ceiling. Mcgee has the x factor blatche to improve against.
And blatche is a by product of years battling against jamison and haywood so haywood and jamison live through blatche and mcgee. They aren't really gone. I am just glad jamison and haywood are physically on another team.
But mcgee and blatche both seven footers will push each other just as marc and pau gasol...the lopez brothers off the court. The right mix took years and luck to make but part of grunfeld longterm plan and luck is start to actualize which is why grunfeld earns a lot of respect from me.

[likwitdesi]

Something I've noticed about Javale is that his touch around the rim isn't very good. Maybe, for starters, before he works on the jumpers, he should work on finishing...

[hands11]

Something I've noticed about Javale is that his touch around the rim isn't very good. Maybe, for starters, before he works on the jumpers, he should work on finishing...

His touch around the rim is an elbow dunk

I stand by my write up on him vs Haywood.

Haywood developed a piece at a time also and it happened over a few years. He brought the ball to low and fixed that. He didn't have a post move so he added one or two. He wasn't strong enough and had poor foot work, so he hit the weight. Haywood is hands down a way better player right now but McGee has speed, quickness and leaps Haywood never had. The kid just needs some more time.

McGee was more of a PF/C then Haywood who was a pure center. McGee thinks way more offensively then Haywood ever did. As for a post game, he tries to over use his athleticism by jumping toward the basket even when he can't get the dunk. He needs a post move and he doesn't have one so he just goes by instinct and kind of over reacts when he is close to the hoop instead of going into a known move. But the kid is a freak when he can take one long step and jump and dunk it from 6-7 feet out.

The kid is at least two years away from looking like anything that resembles a polished player. But once he gets there, he will be able to dominate a game on both ends of the court. I think he is going to get there.

Haywood is about as good a bread and butter solid defensive center as your going to find while McGee has the potential to be something special. But Haywood has done it and McGee is still potential. The kid is only 22. Can't wait to see the 25 year old version.

[closg00]

This is fascinating. I cherry-picked numbers to make McGee look BETTER! People are arguing that McGee is somehow a good center. He's NOT. He might be one day. He shows flashes of good play. But, even when I take the numbers MOST FAVORABLE TO MCGEE, he STILL doesn't compare to quality NBA centers. And those numbers aren't even considering his defense, which is atrocious! He hasn't been mismanaged by anyone but himself.

As for WizarDynasty's "argument," you may think you've laid out a case that Haywood is bottom third or whatever, but you're preposterously, idiotically, delusionally wrong. Haywood is actually a net contributor on the offensive end despite not having a fluid post-up game because he's a) low usage; b) he sets excellent screens; c) he grabs lots of offensive rebounds; and d) he converts inside because he usually doesn't take bad shots. His career offensive rating is roughly 7 points per 100 possessions better than the league average during his career.

In fact, since 1978-79 (when the NBA began collecting the stats necessary to calculate offensive rating), Haywood's offensive rating (114 points produced per 100 possessions) ranks 8th among centers with at least 10,000 career minutes. Assuredly, his offensive rating is boosted by the fact that he's low usage. However, his ortg is better than many other low usage centers. The contention that he is "a way below offensive player" is false.

WizarDynasty's claims about Haywood's defense are also mostly wrong. Haywood is not a good defensive rebounder. Not horrible, but not good either. It would be better if he was better on the defensive glass, but he more than makes up for it by forcing misses. And, forcing misses is BY FAR the most important factor in NBA defense. In addition, Haywood is an excellent help defender, does a great job challenging shots on the perimeter when he's required to rotate, and is one of the league's better defenders at the rim. Claims otherwise betray a serious lack of knowledge.

This thread is a celebration of how mcgee looks eons better protecting the rim than haywood. Mcgee is also a better help defender and three times better defending the perimeter.
That boy mcgee can play is all ready better than haywood. I never liked brenda as a starter and guess what he is gone. Let's celebrate significant upgrade of defense at center. That boy mcgee can play.

This quote is testament to blind ignorance. It's staggering how many erroneous statements can be jammed into 6 short sentences.

Just to close the loop on this from my end, I agree with you that JM has tons of upside and could potentially be a star in the future. I thought Ernie and Flip were dumb by not sending JM to the D-League like other rookie bigs this-year. The team also erred by having JM sit-out most of the year, so when they finally had to start using, people wanted to bitch about him not being Dwight Howard right away when he came in cold. JM IS going to need some good coaching and he most-def will have to bulk-up. He is a project.

[hands11]

Against ATL 10-13, 9 boards, 20 pts. several alley-oops and I think 8 dunks. Tied for most this season with D Howard.

Just saw a McGee highlight reel on comcast.

I think we can call that playing. And he still have a ton of upside.

[keynote]

I watched the game on tape delay. JaVale "The Advair Up There" McGee certainly looked spry. He even had a nice (well, nice-ish) dish to Blatche for a J in the corner.

I'm looking forward to him bulking up, though; it's tough to play D when the Al Horfords of the league can easily back you down and get drop step layups.

[Tyrone Messby]

In 12 games since trade averaging 11 ppg and 6 rpg in 25 min per game. Not too shabby. I wish Tapscott would've played him more last season. Still very pissed off at the handling of the young talent on this team last year (Blatche and McGee).

[dlts20]

Where is our boy Ed Tapscott? I want to see him bench McGee and give him 5mpg while giving Oberto 36mpg even though we are a million games out the playoffs and Oberto probably wont be here next year. It was genuis of him doing that last year and now Songalia is gone. Think about where Javelle could be right now if he had played some last year. It makes no sense to have done that and I bet anything he would be doing it right now if he were coaching. Trying to covince us how Oberto is so much better and how McGee needs to watch him and this will benefit us in the long run.


BTW, Im a big Oberto fan but you guys know where Im getting at

[ZonkertheBrainless]

Speaking of Javale's issues being mental: "I feel like I’m still going to leave my feet sometimes because that’s what has people scared to come to the hole half the time. So if I stop doing that then there’d be more scoring. I’d rather just be one foul and I leave my feet all the time and there’s five misses than everybody score and just shoot it and not be afraid of me."

Wow. Can you say "fundamental misunderstanding of good defensive principles"? He's basically saying "I'd rather let my guy get good position and fake me out of my jock strap than play strong position defense and force him to take a tough shot."

This is the same guy who showed off how hard he was working in the offseason by posting online his HALF HOUR daily workout.

[cdouglas]

Something I've noticed about Javale is that his touch around the rim isn't very good. Maybe, for starters, before he works on the jumpers, he should work on finishing...

His touch around the rim is an elbow dunk

I stand by my write up on him vs Haywood.

Haywood developed a piece at a time also and it happened over a few years. He brought the ball to low and fixed that. He didn't have a post move so he added one or two. He wasn't strong enough and had poor foot work, so he hit the weight. Haywood is hands down a way better player right now but McGee has speed, quickness and leaps Haywood never had. The kid just needs some more time.

McGee was more of a PF/C then Haywood who was a pure center. McGee thinks way more offensively then Haywood ever did. As for a post game, he tries to over use his athleticism by jumping toward the basket even when he can't get the dunk. He needs a post move and he doesn't have one so he just goes by instinct and kind of over reacts when he is close to the hoop instead of going into a known move. But the kid is a freak when he can take one long step and jump and dunk it from 6-7 feet out.

The kid is at least two years away from looking like anything that resembles a polished player. But once he gets there, he will be able to dominate a game on both ends of the court. I think he is going to get there.

Haywood is about as good a bread and butter solid defensive center as your going to find while McGee has the potential to be something special. But Haywood has done it and McGee is still potential. The kid is only 22. Can't wait to see the 25 year old version.

Yeah, hope the Wizards will reap the benefits!

[LyricalRico]

Speaking of Javale's issues being mental: "I feel like I’m still going to leave my feet sometimes because that’s what has people scared to come to the hole half the time. So if I stop doing that then there’d be more scoring. I’d rather just be one foul and I leave my feet all the time and there’s five misses than everybody score and just shoot it and not be afraid of me."

Wow. Can you say "fundamental misunderstanding of good defensive principles"? He's basically saying "I'd rather let my guy get good position and fake me out of my jock strap than play strong position defense and force him to take a tough shot."

This is the same guy who showed off how hard he was working in the offseason by posting online his HALF HOUR daily workout.

This guy's ceiling is Birdman 2.0, which isn't bad but it's far short of what many here think he's capable of (not me, though). He's pretty much costing himself tens of millions of dollars by being uncoachable on defense.