Bryan Colangelo
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Bryan Colangelo
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Bryan Colangelo
Im a Raptors fans and the Suns are my second favourite team, so I hope you guys do well this season. I was interested in knowing your opinions on Bryan Colangelo. The guy was magical in Phoenix for a few years and came in with a lot of hype in Toronto. When he came to Toronto, he had a ton of cap space, a budding star in Bosh, the second best rookie in Charlie Villanueva, and the first overall pick. He was great in his first year with 47 wins, but the team has won 41, 33 after that and wont win more than 42 this year. In 4 seasons, his record here is 153-156. Hes a competent executive and has executed some brilliant moves, but his vision has been very flawed with the no defense lineup. With our losing streak, a lot of people are starting to question him. Hes getting paid as a top executive, but he hasnt delivered yet.
Hes also been pretty bad with his contracts. He gave Calderon 45 million deal over 5 years, Turkoglu 55 million over 5 years, Bargnani 50 million over 5 years, and Kapono 24 million over 4 years. On the other hand, hes great at picking up pieces no one else discovers and he makes great trades.
I heard someone mention that he wanted Tsiktzvilli (sp?) over Amare, but that he was overruled by his father. A lot of his detractors say that his dad was probably the most responsible for the success over the past few years (I disagree with this). So how do you guys view him? If we squeak into the playoffs and Bosh leaves, do you think he should be replaced or that he should be given another chance?
Was he just lucky in Phoenix or was he legit back then? Why do you think hes failed to bring success to Toronto?
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=995264&start=0
Hes also been pretty bad with his contracts. He gave Calderon 45 million deal over 5 years, Turkoglu 55 million over 5 years, Bargnani 50 million over 5 years, and Kapono 24 million over 4 years. On the other hand, hes great at picking up pieces no one else discovers and he makes great trades.
I heard someone mention that he wanted Tsiktzvilli (sp?) over Amare, but that he was overruled by his father. A lot of his detractors say that his dad was probably the most responsible for the success over the past few years (I disagree with this). So how do you guys view him? If we squeak into the playoffs and Bosh leaves, do you think he should be replaced or that he should be given another chance?
Was he just lucky in Phoenix or was he legit back then? Why do you think hes failed to bring success to Toronto?
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=995264&start=0

Profanity wrote:This is why I question a Canadian team in our league. it's a govt conspiracy trina to sell all our milk to Russia. They let the raptors participate to not let canadians demand crossing taxes. it will backfire one day.
Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
darth_federer wrote:Why do you think hes failed to bring success to Toronto?
Because no one wants to play/live in Toronto.
/end of thread.
Its #DUMPSTERFIRE SEASON! #TeamTRAINWRECK -KERRSED- The Mod, The Myth, The Legend


Re: Bryan Colangelo
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He made some good short term deals. I think he tried to bring Toronto what the Suns had. A versatile team with an amazing point guard. Unfortunately , Calderon isn't that point guard that he believed he would be. I knew Hedo going there would be a bad fit, he was simply playing for a contract and thrived in the Magic system. I'd like the Raptors to keep Bosh because I don't want to see him in another team's uniform. They could easily be one or two pieces away from being legitimate contenders.
Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
I liked BC here and was upset when he left for Toronto. You can't blame him that much for Calderon, Calderon was looking good there for a while. Yeah he's made some questionable signings but here in Phoenix we envy willingness to spend. Some gambles just don't pay off, so I'd give him another chance to start from scratch instead of trying to mix and match what he had done back in Phoenix with the bits and pieces in Toronto.
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
It will be interesting to see what he does with Bosh this summer. That decision might decide if he'll still have a job or not.
fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.
Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
One word about BC: overrated.
Some of his deals?
Trading the #7 pick for a future pick that wouldn't be lottery because he though Iguodala would be off the board just so he could overpay for Quentin Richardson.
Trading Googs and 2 unprotected picks for instant cap relief.
Trading Q and picks for Kurt Thomas just the next year.
Many more.. Sign and trade for Penny etc..
Some of his deals?
Trading the #7 pick for a future pick that wouldn't be lottery because he though Iguodala would be off the board just so he could overpay for Quentin Richardson.
Trading Googs and 2 unprotected picks for instant cap relief.
Trading Q and picks for Kurt Thomas just the next year.
Many more.. Sign and trade for Penny etc..
Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
I think the biggest problem with the Raps right now is that they have too much money committed to guys that don't fill championship needs. The Raps have one of the worst defenses in the NBA and it doesn't help when they have starting guys that are paid huge sums of money and can't play defense. Colangelo has dished out a $50m contract to Bargs, who so happens to be a terrible rebounder and a below average defender. He also gave a $45m deal to Calderon, who is a solid PG, but is arguably the worst defensive PG in the NBA. Hedo is a solid offensive player and defensively he's not bad, but he looked great last season with Orlando because they played great team defense. Hedo was also way overpaid at $55m since he's probably already played his best basketball with Orlando and is on his way down. That's three guys they have committed to roughly $10m a year until at least 2013. Of those three guys, only one is arguably a championship piece.
Colangelo's biggest mistake was not that he overpaid players, but that he signed players not to build a team but to try and keep Bosh in Toronto. Now he's got too much money committed to non-championship pieces and without significant cap space until at least 2012, they are stuck in limbo and I can't see why Bosh wouldn't bolt.
Colangelo's biggest mistake was not that he overpaid players, but that he signed players not to build a team but to try and keep Bosh in Toronto. Now he's got too much money committed to non-championship pieces and without significant cap space until at least 2012, they are stuck in limbo and I can't see why Bosh wouldn't bolt.
Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
MarJJMar wrote:One word about BC: overrated.
Some of his deals?
Trading the #7 pick for a future pick that wouldn't be lottery because he though Iguodala would be off the board just so he could overpay for Quentin Richardson.
Trading Googs and 2 unprotected picks for instant cap relief.
Trading Q and picks for Kurt Thomas just the next year.
Many more.. Sign and trade for Penny etc..
I gotta disagree on some of this. Getting ANYTHING for googs was good, and the sign and trade for Penny was a great move at the time, not knowing he would have the injury issue. The Suns gave up nothing but money there and got it all back by moving him and Steph to get them Nash - a move made by Bryan Colangelo.
The good thing about BC is that he was trained by his father who did things the right way. In sports, nothing is guaranteed, you build a team and you hope it works. As long as you do things the right way with a goal towards winning, you have a chance. Ultimately, BC will be successful in Toronto if he stays there. I wish he was still in Phx.
Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
Kerrsed wrote:darth_federer wrote:Why do you think hes failed to bring success to Toronto?
Because no one wants to play/live in Toronto.
/end of thread.
Yeah, prety much

Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
I'm pretty much fed up with his hardcore Euro-obsession.
Don't mistake me, there are many good players from Europe. Well-schooled in fundamentals, clever players, etc, etc. Some are even athletic enough to be exceptional players. But a team full of guys who don't have significant athleticism and relying almost entirely on outside shooting is just stupid, especially without a really spectacular point guard. Colangelo tried to build his Skita-vision team and it sucks at the NBA level. Once in a while, he makes a concession to the need for physicality and athleticism and it makes a difference (e.g. TJ Ford, the brief fling with Fred Jones, the acquisition of Shawn Marion, etc) but I am so very tired of Hedo, Calderon and Bargnani... and Hedo's barely been here any time at all. It's not even so much the individual players. Calderon is a phenomenal 6th man, Hedo was a starter on a Finals squad, Bargs could be the best 6th man the league has seen in a long time...
It's that we have all THREE of them, a weak coach, an unimpressive bench and never really seem to fill the voids that this team has. We've declined precipitously on defense under his watch, haven't added a legit second scorer, haven't acquired any real wing talent, don't have a frontcourt that makes any sense, don't rebound well at all... Ugh.
Toronto isn't even fun to watch. If they were horrible but fun, then I could handle it, but he's gone and mostly ruined the team for me.
Don't mistake me, there are many good players from Europe. Well-schooled in fundamentals, clever players, etc, etc. Some are even athletic enough to be exceptional players. But a team full of guys who don't have significant athleticism and relying almost entirely on outside shooting is just stupid, especially without a really spectacular point guard. Colangelo tried to build his Skita-vision team and it sucks at the NBA level. Once in a while, he makes a concession to the need for physicality and athleticism and it makes a difference (e.g. TJ Ford, the brief fling with Fred Jones, the acquisition of Shawn Marion, etc) but I am so very tired of Hedo, Calderon and Bargnani... and Hedo's barely been here any time at all. It's not even so much the individual players. Calderon is a phenomenal 6th man, Hedo was a starter on a Finals squad, Bargs could be the best 6th man the league has seen in a long time...
It's that we have all THREE of them, a weak coach, an unimpressive bench and never really seem to fill the voids that this team has. We've declined precipitously on defense under his watch, haven't added a legit second scorer, haven't acquired any real wing talent, don't have a frontcourt that makes any sense, don't rebound well at all... Ugh.
Toronto isn't even fun to watch. If they were horrible but fun, then I could handle it, but he's gone and mostly ruined the team for me.
Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
Kerrsed wrote:darth_federer wrote:Why do you think hes failed to bring success to Toronto?
Because no one wants to play/live in Toronto.
/end of thread.
I dont want to derail this thread, but I would love to hear about players who declined to come to Toronto because of the city.
Players always praise Toronto because its cosmopolitan, safe, and clean. Its also a beautiful city and was ranked among the top 15 cities in the whole world.

Profanity wrote:This is why I question a Canadian team in our league. it's a govt conspiracy trina to sell all our milk to Russia. They let the raptors participate to not let canadians demand crossing taxes. it will backfire one day.
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
Seattlesun wrote:MarJJMar wrote:One word about BC: overrated.
Some of his deals?
Trading the #7 pick for a future pick that wouldn't be lottery because he though Iguodala would be off the board just so he could overpay for Quentin Richardson.
Trading Googs and 2 unprotected picks for instant cap relief.
Trading Q and picks for Kurt Thomas just the next year.
Many more.. Sign and trade for Penny etc..
I gotta disagree on some of this. Getting ANYTHING for googs was good, and the sign and trade for Penny was a great move at the time, not knowing he would have the injury issue. The Suns gave up nothing but money there and got it all back by moving him and Steph to get them Nash - a move made by Bryan Colangelo.
The good thing about BC is that he was trained by his father who did things the right way. In sports, nothing is guaranteed, you build a team and you hope it works. As long as you do things the right way with a goal towards winning, you have a chance. Ultimately, BC will be successful in Toronto if he stays there. I wish he was still in Phx.
Thats a pretty balanced analysis and I only hope it happens. Ownership still has a lot of confidence in him and they recently picked up his option for next year.
Hes definitely built an impressive brain trust and the ownership has committed to going over the tax next year publicly, so I hope he fixes the mistakes.

Profanity wrote:This is why I question a Canadian team in our league. it's a govt conspiracy trina to sell all our milk to Russia. They let the raptors participate to not let canadians demand crossing taxes. it will backfire one day.
Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
Seattlesun wrote:MarJJMar wrote:One word about BC: overrated.
Some of his deals?
Trading the #7 pick for a future pick that wouldn't be lottery because he though Iguodala would be off the board just so he could overpay for Quentin Richardson.
Trading Googs and 2 unprotected picks for instant cap relief.
Trading Q and picks for Kurt Thomas just the next year.
Many more.. Sign and trade for Penny etc..
I gotta disagree on some of this. Getting ANYTHING for googs was good, and the sign and trade for Penny was a great move at the time, not knowing he would have the injury issue. The Suns gave up nothing but money there and got it all back by moving him and Steph to get them Nash - a move made by Bryan Colangelo.
The good thing about BC is that he was trained by his father who did things the right way. In sports, nothing is guaranteed, you build a team and you hope it works. As long as you do things the right way with a goal towards winning, you have a chance. Ultimately, BC will be successful in Toronto if he stays there. I wish he was still in Phx.
Yeah I disagree with a couple of these
Googs was out of the picture long before we shipped him. He willingly gave Amar'e his starting spot and his minutes. Getting cap relief was a bonus.
Q for Kurt Thomas was a great trade. Thomas was one of those guys we would STILL like to have around. A piece like that puts a good team in contention.
You can't really call the Penny deal a bad deal either
And Seattlesun, I agree with your comments about BC...I wish we still had him as well and see him being successful.
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
BC made some mistakes, but we'd prolly be a better team right now if he was still around. He wouldn't have went after the same types of players that he went after in Toronto, given that both teams have been playing diff styles of basketball (open court vs half court).
At the time he left PHX, the roster consisted of Nash on a 11ish mill per year contract, Amare on a 13ish mill per contract, Marion overpaid but locked up for his prime years, prime Raja and James Jones on cheap contracts, Diaw and Barbosa on rookie contracts, Eddie House and Brian Grant's expirings, a still very usefull K.Thomas who was overpaid but only on a 2 year deal, + Burke and Dijon on dirt cheap. And that team made the WCF for the 2nd year in a row. It's not like he left PHX in a bad situation...
Also very different types of players compared to Toronto's roster (a lot more athletic and better defense).
At the time he left PHX, the roster consisted of Nash on a 11ish mill per year contract, Amare on a 13ish mill per contract, Marion overpaid but locked up for his prime years, prime Raja and James Jones on cheap contracts, Diaw and Barbosa on rookie contracts, Eddie House and Brian Grant's expirings, a still very usefull K.Thomas who was overpaid but only on a 2 year deal, + Burke and Dijon on dirt cheap. And that team made the WCF for the 2nd year in a row. It's not like he left PHX in a bad situation...
Also very different types of players compared to Toronto's roster (a lot more athletic and better defense).

Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Agree with some of your others but always liked Kurt here. He was brought in to Phoenix to bring toughness and D and he delivered. His importance to the defense and even the offense of the team was underrated by fans and obviously Kerr.MarJJMar wrote:Trading Q and picks for Kurt Thomas just the next year.
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
Miklo wrote:Seattlesun wrote:MarJJMar wrote:One word about BC: overrated.
Some of his deals?
Trading the #7 pick for a future pick that wouldn't be lottery because he though Iguodala would be off the board just so he could overpay for Quentin Richardson.
Trading Googs and 2 unprotected picks for instant cap relief.
Trading Q and picks for Kurt Thomas just the next year.
Many more.. Sign and trade for Penny etc..
I gotta disagree on some of this. Getting ANYTHING for googs was good, and the sign and trade for Penny was a great move at the time, not knowing he would have the injury issue. The Suns gave up nothing but money there and got it all back by moving him and Steph to get them Nash - a move made by Bryan Colangelo.
The good thing about BC is that he was trained by his father who did things the right way. In sports, nothing is guaranteed, you build a team and you hope it works. As long as you do things the right way with a goal towards winning, you have a chance. Ultimately, BC will be successful in Toronto if he stays there. I wish he was still in Phx.
Yeah I disagree with a couple of these
Googs was out of the picture long before we shipped him. He willingly gave Amar'e his starting spot and his minutes. Getting cap relief was a bonus.
Q for Kurt Thomas was a great trade. Thomas was one of those guys we would STILL like to have around. A piece like that puts a good team in contention.
You can't really call the Penny deal a bad deal either
And Seattlesun, I agree with your comments about BC...I wish we still had him as well and see him being successful.
and i disagree with most of this:
the ONE thing BC was good at was bailing himself out of STUPID moves he made himself.
1.) he traded Kidd for Marbury. the reason behind it was stupid at the time, and it is stupid now. Kidd is a HOF, while Marbury.....well Marbury is Marbury
2.) he traded 2 Firsts, 2 Seconds, and Wesley Person for McDyess. There was no security in trading for an expiring rookie contract at the time, and he proceeded to walk right back to denver after one season.
3.) he traded a first round pick for freaking Luc Longley
4.) he resigned Marbury.....but was able to unload him.
5.) he traded for Penny. YES this was a bad deal. Penny was obvious damanged goods from the start. he had missed 23, 61 and 32 games the previous three years before the deal. AND it cost us 2 first round picks to get him.
6.) traded #7 pick for a future first....who ended up being nate robinson....who then turned into nothing (i know it wasnt BC though)
7.) he traded Googs and 2 first rounders for cap space. i know this was a move to sell the team....but it was HORRIBLE
8.) drafted and then traded Gortat to the Magic for nothing
there have been many things he HASNT done that he should have also. but i'm done nameing
Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
I'll out myself as a big BC fan, yeah he had his bumps but I think the last few years of his Phx gig and his stay in toronto have been very successful as far as a talent acquisition standpoint is concerned.
Look at Toronto's roster and tell me the pieces aren't there to compete in the East. For whatever reason the team hasn't clicked. maybe its the coach, maybe its chemistry but I think as far as the roster is concerned Toronto BC has done a solid job.
Bargnani was a solid selection, he has developed into a very good player, may be an allstar if Bosh bolts. If they had to do it over again I'm sure they would have picked Aldridge Roy or Gay but Bargnani has not been a bust at all. Especially considering all the busts that were drafted in the top 10 that year.
The jury's still out on DeRozan.. he has a ton of potential but maybe Jennings should have been the pick here. Although he seemed like quite the knuckle head so I don't blame BC for that one. Collison wouldn't have been bad either but everyone seemed to underrate him.
Garbajosa was a great singing, unfortunately he got hurt then went back to Europe. Belinelli was a good trade. Delfino trade was a good trade, Marion Trade was a good trade for Toronto as he was the most valuable asset in the deal. Turkigklu was a good singing even if he hasn't exactly thrived there. Other good signings include Moon, Kapono and Jack among others.
Overall I think BC's tenure in Toronto has been a success. I think the raptors were summed up really well by Michael Wilbon today on PTI when he said "the parts are greater than the whole in Toronto, They got enough Talent... They got nice Parts there.. they're under achieving."
Time for a proven Coach... If they can re-sign Bosh.
Look at Toronto's roster and tell me the pieces aren't there to compete in the East. For whatever reason the team hasn't clicked. maybe its the coach, maybe its chemistry but I think as far as the roster is concerned Toronto BC has done a solid job.
Bargnani was a solid selection, he has developed into a very good player, may be an allstar if Bosh bolts. If they had to do it over again I'm sure they would have picked Aldridge Roy or Gay but Bargnani has not been a bust at all. Especially considering all the busts that were drafted in the top 10 that year.
The jury's still out on DeRozan.. he has a ton of potential but maybe Jennings should have been the pick here. Although he seemed like quite the knuckle head so I don't blame BC for that one. Collison wouldn't have been bad either but everyone seemed to underrate him.
Garbajosa was a great singing, unfortunately he got hurt then went back to Europe. Belinelli was a good trade. Delfino trade was a good trade, Marion Trade was a good trade for Toronto as he was the most valuable asset in the deal. Turkigklu was a good singing even if he hasn't exactly thrived there. Other good signings include Moon, Kapono and Jack among others.
Overall I think BC's tenure in Toronto has been a success. I think the raptors were summed up really well by Michael Wilbon today on PTI when he said "the parts are greater than the whole in Toronto, They got enough Talent... They got nice Parts there.. they're under achieving."
Time for a proven Coach... If they can re-sign Bosh.

Re: Bryan Colangelo
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Re: Bryan Colangelo
Orange_Blooded wrote:Look at Toronto's roster and tell me the pieces aren't there to compete in the East. For whatever reason the team hasn't clicked. maybe its the coach, maybe its chemistry but I think as far as the roster is concerned Toronto BC has done a solid job.
Compete in the East? Sure. But they are seriously no better than say, Memphis and if you look at their roster, can you really say they are a lot better than the Clippers? The team sucks because they don't play defense and they don't have a system that makes them an overwhelmingly good offensive team either. You got guys who can't play defense starting at the C and PG and if it wasn't for CB4, they wouldn't be talking playoffs.
Bargnani was a solid selection, he has developed into a very good player, may be an allstar if Bosh bolts. If they had to do it over again I'm sure they would have picked Aldridge Roy or Gay but Bargnani has not been a bust at all. Especially considering all the busts that were drafted in the top 10 that year.
He's a decent player but not a number 1 pick. But other teams would've probably taken him at #1 if Toronto didn't. I would consider him a bust purely on the fact that he was the #1 pick, but if draft position wasn't a criteria for calling someone a bust then I probably wouldn't label him a bust.
The jury's still out on DeRozan.. he has a ton of potential but maybe Jennings should have been the pick here. Although he seemed like quite the knuckle head so I don't blame BC for that one. Collison wouldn't have been bad either but everyone seemed to underrate him.
I like Derozan and I think he was a solid pick. The kid plays defense and is an athletic freak. But overall he was a solid pick if you consider the players that got drafted after him and Toronto's need at he time.
Garbajosa was a great singing, unfortunately he got hurt then went back to Europe. Belinelli was a good trade. Delfino trade was a good trade, Marion Trade was a good trade for Toronto as he was the most valuable asset in the deal. Turkigklu was a good singing even if he hasn't exactly thrived there. Other good signings include Moon, Kapono and Jack among others.
I think Kerr is a little like BC at how they manage to sign decent talent for cheap. Kerr got us Hill, Lou, Frye and Barnes. He got a decent talent in Belinelli, who hasn't really shown much but he got him for cheap so whatever. I liked the Moon and Jack signing but not so much Kapono. My biggest beef is his signing of Bargs, Calderon and Turkeyglue. Turkeyglue is a good player but he's one of those final piece for a championship team kinda guy. He's not someone you pay $50+m at his age, so he can carry your team. That was a bad signing and Portland and Orlando both knew they got away with one there.
Overall I think BC's tenure in Toronto has been a success. I think the raptors were summed up really well by Michael Wilbon today on PTI when he said "the parts are greater than the whole in Toronto, They got enough Talent... They got nice Parts there.. they're under achieving."
Time for a proven Coach... If they can re-sign Bosh.
I think the jury is still out on BC as Toronto GM. How he handles this off season will be critical. Personal I don't think he's done a great job at managing big assets. They are currently sitting at 8th spot *with* Bosh, if he leaves and with no financial wiggle room, they will be who they are this season but without Bosh. They will be over the cap for another two seasons so that's another two seasons of mediocrity before they can make any major moves, unless they manage to move Calderon or Turkeyglue.
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Seattlesun wrote:I gotta disagree on some of this. Getting ANYTHING for googs was good,
You must not remember the details of the trade. Googs' contract was expiring in a couple months all the Suns did was cash in on the league payout before selling the team by getting far enough under the cap. They gave up 2 firsts to do this, one of which is the NYK pick this year.
So they didn't get ANYTHING as far as basketball value and as it turns out gave up quite a bit just to get a small league payout(basically what Sarver makes off late 1st round draft picks).
Re: Bryan Colangelo
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lilfishi22 wrote:I think Kerr is a little like BC at how they manage to sign decent talent for cheap. Kerr got us Hill, Lou, Frye and Barnes.
We get cheap talent here because playing with Steve Nash usually equals a big pay day or better numbers than you could put up elsewhere. Also Phoenix has always gotten cheap talent due to the weather here during the NBA season is the best in the league.
I agree that BC hasn't sealed a successful legacy in Toronto yet, but I think he has put together a good group around Bosh. Honestly, I think Bosh is part of the problem, not that he's not a stud, he obviously is.. but he will only contend for a title when he's the 2nd best player on a team. Which he wont be in toronto with this current squad. BC had to build around him in order to keep him.
If Roy was drafted instead of Bargnani they could compete right now but he wasn't.
If Turkey-Glue wasn't signed maybe they would have more cap flexibility this off season but he was.
Neither were bad moves, but both will be 2nd guessed. Best case scenario if raps re-sign Bosh, They Hire a top notch coach, luck upon a solid FA or Draft pick and be a top 4 team in the east for a while.
If Bosh signs else where then Raps will get some lotto picks and will actually have a better chance to be an actual competitor in the long run... or screw up and be a laughing stock for a while. From an outside perspective you would almost wish they'd lose bosh to have a chance to win seriously... but we're in a similar situation with stat. It's a tough position to have to be a horrible team in order to possibly succeed in the future. A position us suns fans have never really been in (at least since i've been a fan in 91-92). We seem to reload and be a playoff team almost every year (we've only missed playoffs 3x in last 22 seasons).
As a fan would you rather be a bottom dweller for a few seasons and then have a chance to have a really good team... or would you rather have a solid team almost every year, usually be in the mix, but only occasionally an actual contender?
