Thunder hater of the week

[Clangus]

I have dedicated a thread for us Thunderfans to vent about the Thunder haters because I am so sick of Thier stupid ill informed posts that I simply cannot try and have a decent debate with them. This certain posters posts are often self contradicting and generally filled with rambling, insult and dribble.

Here are some things that have pissed me off
thier claims

- Presti is an over-rated Gm that hasn't actually doe anything good.
- Westbrook is worse than Evans, Kidd, Harris, Rose, Arenas etc
- KD cannot reach the same level as Kobe, Wade and Lebron
- Westbrook does not have superstar potential
- Westbrook is a poor man's Rondo
- Westbrook is a bad playmaker
- He has said that he has watched every Thunder game on one thread in another he said misseed all but 2 in another post he said all but 4 - personally I think he may have actually watched about 4


Wow that was just from memory of one thread and re-reading another ones first 4 pages.

Mind boggling.

[Clangus]

i cant be the only one frustrated by this?

[mcmokken]

Rose is on another level in terms of scoring. And as much as you rave about Westbrook's defense, he's certainly never stopped Rose defensively. You put Westbrook on the Bulls, they suck, because Westbrook sucks offensively. You put Rose on the Thunder, next to 2nd greatest player in the game, and they go to the finals. Westbrook is not marginally better than Rose by any means, lol.

Thunder fans don't understand the struggles of resigning their young players yet. It's cute. It reminds me of a more innocent time before the Blazers had to resign their young guys.

He is a poor playmaker. There's nothing opinionated about it, you see his turnovers on teams with a better than average point guard on defense.

And Harris isn't better than Westbrook? Are you watching the NBA? Did you see the 9 turnover outing he put up against Harris. Devin is an All-Star. Arenas, though coming off two surgeries, is a far harder player to cover than Westbrook. Sure he has an uglier contract, stupid decisions and is more immature than a 3 year old kid, but he's definitely a better basketball player.

And please don't compare Westbrook to Evans. Evans is a legit star already, Westbrook still needs time. Teams devise game plans to stop Evans, teams go under picks to let Westbrook shoot. And no, Westbrook isn't as good as Rose. Rose may be putting up worse stats, but take a look at his team. He's shown in the playoffs, he's a performer. There's no indication Westbrook can ever become as good as a performer as Rose(if you watched his playoff series vs. Boston).

When Westbrook can hit anywhere near 30% from 3's, and 44% from the field, he'll be a respectable player. Till now, he's one of the easiest players to take out of the game.

edit: If I had to pick one of the two getting on that caliber, I'd say Tyreke mainly because he's shown already in his rookie year he can make big time plays, and be a facilitator. In order to crack the top 3, 4 in the game you have to make others around you better. Tyreke hasn't YET, but certainly has the ability too. That's one facet of the game Durant will probably never have(playmaking, court vision).

Westbrook is a poor man's Rajon Rondo. Not Rose. Rose is way too gifted to be insulted like that.

Westbrook is a consecuence player, not a cause player.

No GM would have him over Rose, Nash or many other PG Stars, even if he rebounds, shoots and assists more and better, simply, because he is not as talented as the others are, and of course, the main reason, as much as his stats are pretty good, he is a worse player.

Salutations.

[mcmokken]

i cant be the only one frustrated by this?

I'm not so much frustrated because these people can't really back up what they say anyway. Their "arguments" usually just perplex/amuse me.

[OzThunder]

The Shiv....lol

All he ever does is little one sentence lines bagging out the thunder in thunder related threads

[ThunderPoke]

The main board is populated by idiots who know very little about the NBA. The Thunder easily have the brightest future in the league, this season vindicates Sam Presti as the best GM in the league, the Northwest Division is easily the best in basketball, and the Thunder will have no trouble extending Durant, Green, and Westbrook for 5 years each.

Also, Kevin Durant is probably the second best player in the NBA RIGHT NOW (third best at worst), and Russell Westbrook is already a top 5 point guard in the league at age 21.

Ironically, Jim Traber (OKC's sports talk's "Ultimate" Guru) probably knows less about the NBA than most of the idiots on the main board. Traber bashed the Westbrook pick (clearly proven wrong); bashed Westbrook as not being a "pure" or "true" point guard (clearly proven wrong); bashed Harden as the number 3 overall pick and said we should draft Jordan Hill (again, proven wrong); criticized the Serge Ibaka selection because "he probably won't even end up playing in the NBA" (again, proven wrong).

[slick_watts]

I replied to that DraftBoy fellow once.. doesn't seem worth it to add anything else to the discussion in the Russell Westbrook thread..

There's only so many times you can state your opinion.

Then again, there are merits to some of the arguments you list, Clangus. Kevin Durant might not reach the level of LeBron, Kobe, and Wade - all of those players make their teammates better and are skilled at facilitating offense. Kevin Durant isn't really good at that. I think his defense, combined with Wade and Kobe aging, will propel him past those two. But to get past LeBron he will have to develop another 'otherwordly' skill besides scoring - LeBron's just as good as him there this season.

Westbrook isn't definitively better than Rose, Evans, or Kidd IMO. Depends on what you want. Some of the posters in that thread get a little too carried away when picking one or the other.. I could see arguments for all of them, but if you pick one it's not by much. They're all close. Harris and Arenas in that discussion is a little silly.

Anyway, it's easy to tell which people are the ones active in the conversation to learn and discuss basketball and which ones just want to start arguments for the sake of arguments and aren't prepared to defend their position - just want to argue. I try to avoid getting into conversations with those types.

[Jimmy76]

I replied to that DraftBoy fellow once.. doesn't seem worth it to add anything else to the discussion in the Russell Westbrook thread..

There's only so many times you can state your opinion.

Then again, there are merits to some of the arguments you list, Clangus. Kevin Durant might not reach the level of LeBron, Kobe, and Wade - all of those players make their teammates better and are skilled at facilitating offense. Kevin Durant isn't really good at that. I think his defense, combined with Wade and Kobe aging, will propel him past those two. But to get past LeBron he will have to develop another 'otherwordly' skill besides scoring - LeBron's just as good as him there this season.

Westbrook isn't definitively better than Rose, Evans, or Kidd IMO. Depends on what you want. Some of the posters in that thread get a little too carried away when picking one or the other.. I could see arguments for all of them, but if you pick one it's not by much. They're all close. Harris and Arenas in that discussion is a little silly.

Anyway, it's easy to tell which people are the ones active in the conversation to learn and discuss basketball and which ones just want to start arguments for the sake of arguments and aren't prepared to defend their position - just want to argue. I try to avoid getting into conversations with those types.

I cant help it

[wiff]

Kevin Durant might not reach the level of LeBron, Kobe, and Wade - all of those players make their teammates better and are skilled at facilitating offense. Kevin Durant isn't really good at that. I think his defense, combined with Wade and Kobe aging, will propel him past those two. But to get past LeBron he will have to develop another 'otherwordly' skill besides scoring - LeBron's just as good as him there this season.

I have been thinking about this. I think Durant does have an "otherworldly talent" that allows him to make his teammates better.

He plays so well off the ball it allows his teammates to have the ball and get theirs as well. Of course this is just a theory I haven't done any crazy research on it.

But I wonder what is the highest number of assists a teammate of Kobe, LeBron and DWade has ever averaged.

Isn't it possible that Durant has made Westbrook better by letting Westbrook have the ball so much in his hands? Mean while Durant is crazy efficient and doesn't need the ball in his hands as much to be superstar effective?

[wizkid27]

Honestly, I don't really get too phased by all of it. I am currently just basking in the joy of a successful season and potentially a very bright future for this franchise. People are always going to say things that I think are uninformed...

[slick_watts]

I have been thinking about this. I think Durant does have an "otherworldly talent" that allows him to make his teammates better.

He plays so well off the ball it allows his teammates to have the ball and get theirs as well. Of course this is just a theory I haven't done any crazy research on it.

But I wonder what is the highest number of assists a teammate of Kobe, LeBron and DWade has ever averaged.

Isn't it possible that Durant has made Westbrook better by letting Westbrook have the ball so much in his hands? Mean while Durant is crazy efficient and doesn't need the ball in his hands as much to be superstar effective?

This is mentioned a lot, and Kevin Durant does play well off the ball, but it'd be better if he played well with the ball and could create offense for others as well. Usually, when Kevin Durant gets the ball, and he's not double teamed (sometimes even when he is), a shot is going up. This is not a bad thing at all since he's so efficient offensively, but it's definitely a limitation. LeBron, Kobe, and Wade are legitimate 'triple threats' that get easy shot attempts for their teammates because of their ability to pass the ball accurately, and read / react to defenses.

I actually believe the opposite of you, I think Russ has made Kevin Durant a lot better by being an effective distributor and improving himself as a threat offensively. Russ is of course aided as a PG by Kevin Durant, but Russ is that 'triple threat' and creates a larger 'tree' of possibilities when he has the ball in his hands. This lets Kevin Durant do what he does off the ball without worrying about whether he'll get it; or worring about Russ' ability to recognize when he should look at another option (which Russ is still improving on).

Our key weakness on offense is still turnovers. Russ' turnovers are expected, and to some degree, excused by the amount he handles the ball and the baskets he assists on directly. Kevin Durant has to get his turnovers down, especially his unforced turnovers. That's the first step to becoming a more responsible ball handler.

[wiff]

OK so I did some research.

Kobe Byrant has had two teammates average 5.5 dimes during his career. Lamar Odom, the season before they landed Gasol and the one year Gary Payton played for the Lakers.

LeBron James had Mo Williams last season and Jeff McInnis chip in for 5.1dimes. But Lebrons rookie season McInnis averaged 7.5 dimes for just 31 games when they traded for him. So it wasn't a full season.

DWade best effort by a teammate with assists had White Chocolate the championship year and Chalmers last season both with 4.9 dimes.

Right now Westbrook is averaging 8 dimes, which is substantially more assists other than MCinnis' home stretch.

Durants other worldly talent is that he allows his teammates to get involved in the game by not needing the ball to e effective.

Not sure about you guys but when I go play pick up I like it a lot more when I get the ball in my hands.

Maybe that's how KD makes his teammates better? If Durant dominated the ball like Kobe, Wade and LeBron no way would he be close to 8dimes a game.

[Clangus]

interesting train of thought Wiff and I think you might be onto something.

Slick, I do recognize that some of Draftboy's arguments were valid, but the way he went about proving his point wreaked of hate. Basically he said that Harris is better than RW because he was an allstar (last year) and I forget the other one but it was dumb.

I think KD will be in that top 3-5 players list - the super elite. Only the best of the best can score 30 per game and on top of that only a special few can do it with such great efficiency. And let's not forget that his rebounding and defense are pretty good and getting better every game. Will he surpass LBJ as an individual player? I don't think so, however he plays winning basketball, and allows his team mates to become players and not just become catch and shoot robots like James teammates are to a degree. Is it possible that KD ends up with more titles than LBJ? Maybe, Wilt was the better player in Bill Russells day, but Russell got more rings because of defense and team play.

Just a thought

[Clangus]

Wiff I hope you don't mind, but I am going to steal you post for discussion at another Thunder forum I visit.

[slick_watts]

OK so I did some research.

Kobe Byrant has had two teammates average 5.5 dimes during his career. Lamar Odom, the season before they landed Gasol and the one year Gary Payton played for the Lakers.

LeBron James had Mo Williams last season and Jeff McInnis chip in for 5.1dimes. But Lebrons rookie season McInnis averaged 7.5 dimes for just 31 games when they traded for him. So it wasn't a full season.

DWade best effort by a teammate with assists had White Chocolate the championship year and Chalmers last season both with 4.9 dimes.

Right now Westbrook is averaging 8 dimes, which is substantially more assists other than MCinnis' home stretch.

Durants other worldly talent is that he allows his teammates to get involved in the game by not needing the ball to e effective.

Not sure about you guys but when I go play pick up I like it a lot more when I get the ball in my hands.

Maybe that's how KD makes his teammates better? If Durant dominated the ball like Kobe, Wade and LeBron no way would he be close to 8dimes a game.

I think you're mixing up cause and effect here. Russell Westbrook's assists are high because he's required to initiate most of the offense himself. Kevin Durant isn't good enough of a player in isolation situations to create for himself consistently. Wade, Kobe, and LeBron are all assisted on less than 40% of their made field goals this season. Kevin Durant is assisted on just over 50% of his.

It's not that Kevin Durant 'doesn't need the ball to be effective'. This is true, of course, but players such as Wade, Kobe, and LeBron have playmaking ability that allows them to be effective with the ball, making plays for their teammates while also scoring at a similar clip as Kevin Durant. Our offense would be much more effective if Durant could do those things, you'd see Durant with the ball more and a generally more varied offensive attack. As it is, we run him off screens, curls, pin downs for most of his offense, the rest comes in transition or at the line. Kobe, Wade, and LeBron afford more flexibility to the offensive sets as secondary (or in LeBron's case, primary) ball handlers and play makers.

Think about it. Yeah, Westbrook is averaging eight assists a game. But what's better? Russ getting 5-6 assists a game and KD getting 5-6 like Wade or Tracy McGrady (while also scoring the same) or KD getting 2-3 assists and Russ getting 8? The former makes for a much more effective offensive attack. The latter makes for a predictable one (ours). Russ gets a lot of assists because for the most part he's the ONLY ball handler on the court who is capable of setting up teammates. We're 8th to last in assists per game as a team.

Anyway, I'm just saying I think KD has to gain another skill to be able to exist in the highest tier of players in the league like LeBron (playmaking), Dwight (defense), Wade (playmaking), Chris Paul (playmaking) or Kobe (playmaking, clutch). I think it'll be his defense that comes around within the next couple years to an elite status for his position. He just doesn't seem to have a playmaker's intuition.

[wiff]

Well ideally I'd like to see Westbrook with like 9+ dimes and KD around 4+ but that might take a few years.

I hear what you are saying Slick but if KD was more ball dominate would we be talking about how well Westbrook is doing? Or would we be saying that KD needs more help because Westbrook can't manage more than 5 dimes a game?

[Thundestruck]

My problem is not so much with this guys opinions it is his logic. I think it is fine if you think guys like Evans or Curry or Harris are better then Westbrook just give me a reason. His logic is basically because I say so.

[SD2042]

Honestly, I don't really get too phased by all of it. I am currently just basking in the joy of a successful season and potentially a very bright future for this franchise. People are always going to say things that I think are uninformed...

That you should. Everybody knows the Thunder are having a successful season thus far and are well on their way to the playoffs. They deserve it and should be congratulated for their efforts. As for the critics, they are no more than haters who hate good s**t. If nothing good is happening in their favor, they have to rain their hate on someone's parade. Just keep this in mind ppl. Anytime you draw haters in bunches, you must be doin something right.

[VictorPage44]

Durant's greatest attrubute is his scoring versatility off the ball. Meaning that due to his size, quickness, and shooting ability, there are more spots on the floor that translate into easy buckets for him. He's not an isolation or playmaking type of player on the level of lebron, wade, kobe or even melo or brandon roy, but hes the best finisher (refering to finishing all plays, not just plays around the basket) in the entire NBA. He needs a playmaking guard to set him up, but since he has that in westbrook, I dont think that should be held against him. Its all about effectiveness. For example, the OKC offense wouldnt be any better if durant was setting up westbrook with open looks because westbrook isnt a shooter.

Durant needs to cut down on turnovers, but I dont think its necessary for him to become a facilitator because the personel on OKC isnt really built for that. Durant needs to be the finisher, because besides him they dont have any other great scorers.

It will always help the team if the best player becomes a more versitile player, but until the role players around him develop into more consistant shooters/scorers, I think it isnt beneficial for the team for durant to initiate the offense for others. Harden--who I think is a very solid player off the ball as well-- westbrook, and green especially need to become better shooters (and Im confident they'll all eventually progress into solid complimentary scorers) before durant becomes a distributor on lebron, wade, or kobe's level.

Durant is talented, young and hes a hard worker, so theres really no limit to what he can do. I said this at the beginning of the season, but I think once durant gets it all together, he'll be a 'supersized' kobe--or one helluva problem.

[Hendrix]

- Presti is an over-rated Gm that hasn't actually doe anything good.
- Westbrook is worse than Evans, Kidd, Harris, Rose, Arenas etc
- KD cannot reach the same level as Kobe, Wade and Lebron
- Westbrook does not have superstar potential
- Westbrook is a poor man's Rondo
- Westbrook is a bad playmaker
- He has said that he has watched every Thunder game on one thread in another he said misseed all but 2 in another post he said all but 4 - personally I think he may have actually watched about 4

He's right on 1/2 these things.

Stop acting like a butt hurt pussy. Every team has opposing fans that bash them.