Amare didn't request max money...
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
- thamadkant
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
I think Sarver will extend Stoudemire at 15 Million for 3 years with team option for the 4th.
Again I think its reasonable.
But Heat can offer more.
Stoudemire mentioning he prefers PHX as first choice is typical "right thing" to say.
He looks like he cannot wait to wear no.1 for the Heat next summer.
If by miracle he does want to stay at PHX and accepts a reasonable contract, so that Suns can add more players then I'd be happy. But it looks unlikely.
I say give Clark 35 mins a game and the shots for Stoudemire, sure he'll most likely fail at first, but if its a crash course to becomming a legit star player which Clark has the potential to be.
Again I think its reasonable.
But Heat can offer more.
Stoudemire mentioning he prefers PHX as first choice is typical "right thing" to say.
He looks like he cannot wait to wear no.1 for the Heat next summer.
If by miracle he does want to stay at PHX and accepts a reasonable contract, so that Suns can add more players then I'd be happy. But it looks unlikely.
I say give Clark 35 mins a game and the shots for Stoudemire, sure he'll most likely fail at first, but if its a crash course to becomming a legit star player which Clark has the potential to be.
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
- lilfishi22
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
Miklo wrote:Just as you say posters are ignoring management factors, you seem to be ignoring organizational factors entirely.
.......
So we pay more than Cleveland would. It's what we have to do.
I'm all in favor of slightly overpaying or reasonably overpaying him to keep him here, but if we're talking $20m then no, thank you. You don't ridiculously overpay a guy just because we can't get anyone else better. It's more than just about paying a guy and keeping us competitive, it's about sinking this whole franchise with a $19m-$20m contract "because he's the best guy out there." This is the exact same BS teams like NY, Chicago, Nets are gonna do. Only one team is going to get Lebron (most likely CLE) and the rest of them are going to overpay 2nd-rate "superstars" ie the Joe Johnson's, Rudy Gay's and the Stoudemires because they missed out on the best guy available. As much as I love Amare (I've said this a ton of times), I love this franchise more and if not Amare, then we'll find other ways to get back into the spotlight. If that means two-three seasons of us being a fringe playoff team then so be it. However, $14m, maybe $16m for 4 years would be A-ok with me, no issues with that. It's only when we start throwing the $18+m contracts around, that's when I have a problem.
WTFsunsFTW wrote:We can offer him a longer deal I thought? He has said his first preference is phx, if we dont tempt him enough he will move back home. The Heat still have a lot more rebuilding to do even if they land stat.
I'm not sure about that to be honest. He asked for four years in addition to his $17m next season, so that's a 5 year deal. I'm pretty sure other teams can offer him 5 years as well.
FWIW, I really don't think the Heat with Amare and Wade are that far behind in terms of contention compared to us, even if they flesh out their roster with journeyman's and part-MLE players. If Wade could take the Heat to the playoffs by himself, with *no help*, I think adding Amare to that mix of Wade and "a bunch of Tito Jacksons," would be enough to guarantee a playoff spot.
And what are dantian and thamadkant arguing about? You are both arguing for the same point, we can't offer him what the market can, it's likely he'll leave and even though Amare said Phx is his 1st option, he'd like to test the FA waters.
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
thamadkant's point was, rebuilding without Amare was the way to go as keeping Amare would require 5 mil per year more than what he'd spend as the GM. I absolutely do not share his view of us being crippled to stay competitive. In fact, we can be a contender as long as Amare is healthy even when he gets a max.
Next year, JRich is expiring, we could potentially get good assets for it. And LB is still a good trade chip. Even when we spend the MLE, we are still below the LT. Why not doing it?
And the alternative of rebuilding, for every success story like Thunders, there are 10 miserable ones like Clippers, Bulls, Grizzs and what not. How long did the Blazers suck before? 10 years? I foresee a franchise more like Phoenix Clipplers than Phoenix Thunders once they let Amare walk.
And, somewhen you have to give out contracts beyond 14 mil per for some "star" players. Mostly, you get a JRich or RJefferson for that, and maybe Carter or Redd or even Lewis for much more. You might be lucky to get a David West or Boozer or Lee for that. Well, I guess thamadkant would rather sign Lee/Boozer and a MLE player for the same money than Amare, right? So, what your vision of building a team other than sucking through 10-years of lottery to become the next Clippers?
Next year, JRich is expiring, we could potentially get good assets for it. And LB is still a good trade chip. Even when we spend the MLE, we are still below the LT. Why not doing it?
And the alternative of rebuilding, for every success story like Thunders, there are 10 miserable ones like Clippers, Bulls, Grizzs and what not. How long did the Blazers suck before? 10 years? I foresee a franchise more like Phoenix Clipplers than Phoenix Thunders once they let Amare walk.
And, somewhen you have to give out contracts beyond 14 mil per for some "star" players. Mostly, you get a JRich or RJefferson for that, and maybe Carter or Redd or even Lewis for much more. You might be lucky to get a David West or Boozer or Lee for that. Well, I guess thamadkant would rather sign Lee/Boozer and a MLE player for the same money than Amare, right? So, what your vision of building a team other than sucking through 10-years of lottery to become the next Clippers?
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
All this mumblejumble assumes that Stat wants to stay here. We had our chance to ink him. He is not backing off that price tag.... not when others will pay it.
Tell me, what is the logic behind management's decision to wait ???
Do they think no team will pay stat what he wants ?
Do they think other GMs actually believe we will match a higher offer ??
Are they betting on getting assets back through a sign and trade ?
Suppose Stat opts out of his option. Do we still retain bird rights to match ?
Any team with the cap space can do just what Atlanta did with Johnson.... offer a front loaded deal that would put us in the purgatory known as Luxury Tax..... Then ask yourself, Do you think Knobert will match it ??
and come on ... its M i a m i
Worth it ??? This is an owner who gauges everything with a revenue stream. Its not about a championship... it about a profitable business model.
It hard for me to imagine Amare staying here. Not when management has already shown their cards.
Tell me, what is the logic behind management's decision to wait ???
Do they think no team will pay stat what he wants ?
Do they think other GMs actually believe we will match a higher offer ??
Are they betting on getting assets back through a sign and trade ?
Suppose Stat opts out of his option. Do we still retain bird rights to match ?
Any team with the cap space can do just what Atlanta did with Johnson.... offer a front loaded deal that would put us in the purgatory known as Luxury Tax..... Then ask yourself, Do you think Knobert will match it ??
a reasonable offer was tendered, by both parties.thamadkant wrote:If by miracle he does want to stay at PHX and accepts a reasonable contract, so that Suns can add more players then I'd be happy. But it looks unlikely.
It was the length of the deal that Knobert objected to (or so it is said)... and don't worry about Miami, with Stat and Wade, there will be a few Vets willing to play there for cheap....WTFsunsFTW wrote:We can offer him a longer deal I thought? He has said his first preference is phx, if we dont tempt him enough he will move back home. The Heat still have a lot more rebuilding to do even if they land stat.
and come on ... its M i a m i
WTFsunsFTW wrote:Also, depending how he and LOPEZ do together (like tonight vs the jazz)in the playoffs, it may be totally worth it for sarver to lock the two up for as long as nash can run.
Worth it ??? This is an owner who gauges everything with a revenue stream. Its not about a championship... it about a profitable business model.
It hard for me to imagine Amare staying here. Not when management has already shown their cards.
What ? Me Worry ?
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
- lilfishi22
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
dantian wrote:thamadkant's point was, rebuilding without Amare was the way to go as keeping Amare would require 5 mil per year more than what he'd spend as the GM. I absolutely do not share his view of us being crippled to stay competitive. In fact, we can be a contender as long as Amare is healthy even when he gets a max.
Next year, JRich is expiring, we could potentially get good assets for it. And LB is still a good trade chip. Even when we spend the MLE, we are still below the LT. Why not doing it?
And the alternative of rebuilding, for every success story like Thunders, there are 10 miserable ones like Clippers, Bulls, Grizzs and what not. How long did the Blazers suck before? 10 years? I foresee a franchise more like Phoenix Clipplers than Phoenix Thunders once they let Amare walk.
And, somewhen you have to give out contracts beyond 14 mil per for some "star" players. Mostly, you get a JRich or RJefferson for that, and maybe Carter or Redd or even Lewis for much more. You might be lucky to get a David West or Boozer or Lee for that. Well, I guess thamadkant would rather sign Lee/Boozer and a MLE player for the same money than Amare, right? So, what your vision of building a team other than sucking through 10-years of lottery to become the next Clippers?
My issue with giving Amare max is that we're not a contending team and you can't give a guy a max contract if you are not contending. If he was a franchise player I could see him getting maybe 80% of a max deal, but he's not even a franchise guy. He's just a great scorer who does little else. The kind of deals you are talking about is reserved for the absolute top players in the league and if you are giving those deals to any lesser players, you are either mentally insane or you are super rich, our owner may be (Please Use More Appropriate Word), but he isn't made of money and he sees the Suns as a money making venture rather than a sport franchise.
Here's a bit of perspective for you. Kevin Garnett, one of the greatest power fowards ever to play the game, was given a 6-year $126m contract with the T-Wolves back in 97-98. A lot of people thought it was incredibly risky, not because he had injury concerns and not because people thought he had reached his potential, it was because the contract itself made it incredibly difficult for the team to sign players to get KG help. Guess what happened? 6 consecutive 1st round losses because he never had the supporting cast he needed to break through. In 03-04, the T-Wolves got to the WCF with a decent supporting cast and then missed playoffs for three straight years. Now we're talking KG here, who literally did it all, he was a 22/13/5/2/2 guy.
Now let's look at Amare Stoudemire here, one of the best power fowards in the game today. What you are proposing is to give him a similar contract that crippled the T-Wolves for basically the whole time KG's contract ran. We're talking 6 consecutive first round losses, and one WCF appearance and this is a HOF'er PF. Unlike KG, Amare does have the injury concerns, he's a lot older than KG when KG got his ridiculous contract, he's not a franchise player like KG and he's not going to get much better than he is now, basically, what you see is basically what you get. Add in an extremely frugal owner and you expect we would have more success with Amare on a max deal than KG did with the Wolves? You expect Amare, who isn't dominant on *both* ends of the court, is not a good play maker and not a particularly notable leader, to do what KG couldn't based on what exactly? If we assume Amare is better than KG for one moment and drops 28/10/2, now you have to deal with the fact that Sarver probably won't open his wallet until the pieces literally fall into place through some divine miracle.
What is the alternative? Getting Boozer or DLee for $12m a year and then sign another MLE player. That's one option. But like thamadkant said, just because we have $10 doesn't mean we have to spend it all. I don't have much confidence that our FO will get us the FA we need nor do I have confidence that hitting the lottery would get us some star rookie, but if crippling the team means we won't even be looking at FA and we may even have trouble resigning guys because one guy is taking up all the cap space, then taking a chance in the FA is an option we have to consider.
The concerns are there in plain view. Amare has injury concerns, he's not a franchise guy and doesn't deserve franchise money, giving him max money would hurt this team more than what we'll benefit from Amare's presence and with the new CBA coming in, it is not the best time for any team to be looking into max deals. If we can get Amare to sign for 14m for 5 years then kudos to our FO. Anything less than a Gasol contract, I can deal with. Anything more, and there will be serious consequences that our team will have to deal with.
My point, quite simply, is this:
I don't think rebuilding without Amare is the way to go, but there won't be a rebuild if keeping Amare means giving max money.
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
- lilfishi22
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
Frank Lee wrote:All this mumblejumble assumes that Stat wants to stay here. We had our chance to ink him. He is not backing off that price tag.... not when others will pay it.
Tell me, what is the logic behind management's decision to wait ???
Do they think no team will pay stat what he wants ?
Do they think other GMs actually believe we will match a higher offer ??
Are they betting on getting assets back through a sign and trade ?
Suppose Stat opts out of his option. Do we still retain bird rights to match ?
Any team with the cap space can do just what Atlanta did with Johnson.... offer a front loaded deal that would put us in the purgatory known as Luxury Tax..... Then ask yourself, Do you think Knobert will match it ??
If I assume Kerr had a planned, nothing that has transpired was actually part of the plan. I honestly don't think our FO thinks that highly of Amare and I won't be surprised if they pull the same move they pulled on JJ. Other GM's know that once we have have low ball offer in, we will no longer be a player in the market, even if at a later date they match his offer because Amare is going to feel disrespected and ask them not to match. I'm guessing Kerr is assuming that he can get Amare to agree to a S&T, which I highly doubt he can because Miami is their number 1 preference and also they have no assets under contract. We still have his bird rights so we can match but we're not going to match any deal over $17m.
It hard for me to imagine Amare staying here. Not when management has already shown their cards.
I'm totally with you. Amare's agent asked for a Gasol-level deal and Amare went against the advice of his agent and went down to $14m because he wanted to stay in Phoenix (and it was probably as close to "hometown" discount as you can get) and our FO denied it. The next time we negotiate, do you think we're going to be negotiating with the same Amare that was OK with $14m a year or an Amare that wants $16m for 5 years or worst yet, Amare's agent who asked for $19m a year (Gasol's deal). Either way, it's not looking good.
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
If Stat is offer by another teamlilfishi22 wrote:Frank Lee wrote:All this mumblejumble assumes that Stat wants to stay here. We had our chance to ink him. He is not backing off that price tag.... not when others will pay it.
Tell me, what is the logic behind management's decision to wait ???
Do they think no team will pay stat what he wants ?
Do they think other GMs actually believe we will match a higher offer ??
Are they betting on getting assets back through a sign and trade ?
Suppose Stat opts out of his option. Do we still retain bird rights to match ?
Any team with the cap space can do just what Atlanta did with Johnson.... offer a front loaded deal that would put us in the purgatory known as Luxury Tax..... Then ask yourself, Do you think Knobert will match it ??
If I assume Kerr had a planned, nothing that has transpired was actually part of the plan. I honestly don't think our FO thinks that highly of Amare and I won't be surprised if they pull the same move they pulled on JJ. Other GM's know that once we have have low ball offer in, we will no longer be a player in the market, even if at a later date they match his offer because Amare is going to feel disrespected and ask them not to match. I'm guessing Kerr is assuming that he can get Amare to agree to a S&T, which I highly doubt he can because Miami is their number 1 preference and also they have no assets under contract. We still have his bird rights so we can match but we're not going to match any deal over $17m.It hard for me to imagine Amare staying here. Not when management has already shown their cards.
I'm totally with you. Amare's agent asked for a Gasol-level deal and Amare went against the advice of his agent and went down to $14m because he wanted to stay in Phoenix (and it was probably as close to "hometown" discount as you can get) and our FO denied it. The next time we negotiate, do you think we're going to be negotiating with the same Amare that was OK with $14m a year or an Amare that wants $16m for 5 years or worst yet, Amare's agent who asked for $19m a year (Gasol's deal). Either way, it's not looking good.
you retain his Bird right until he sign with another team.
Stat will be a FREE agent ,Phx will not have the option of matching another deal
in order to attain Amare.He will receive the Max for teams like (NYK,NJ,MIA,CHI)
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
HEATindaHouse wrote:If Stat is offer by another teamlilfishi22 wrote:Frank Lee wrote:All this mumblejumble assumes that Stat wants to stay here. We had our chance to ink him. He is not backing off that price tag.... not when others will pay it.
Tell me, what is the logic behind management's decision to wait ???
Do they think no team will pay stat what he wants ?
Do they think other GMs actually believe we will match a higher offer ??
Are they betting on getting assets back through a sign and trade ?
Suppose Stat opts out of his option. Do we still retain bird rights to match ?
Any team with the cap space can do just what Atlanta did with Johnson.... offer a front loaded deal that would put us in the purgatory known as Luxury Tax..... Then ask yourself, Do you think Knobert will match it ??
If I assume Kerr had a planned, nothing that has transpired was actually part of the plan. I honestly don't think our FO thinks that highly of Amare and I won't be surprised if they pull the same move they pulled on JJ. Other GM's know that once we have have low ball offer in, we will no longer be a player in the market, even if at a later date they match his offer because Amare is going to feel disrespected and ask them not to match. I'm guessing Kerr is assuming that he can get Amare to agree to a S&T, which I highly doubt he can because Miami is their number 1 preference and also they have no assets under contract. We still have his bird rights so we can match but we're not going to match any deal over $17m.It hard for me to imagine Amare staying here. Not when management has already shown their cards.
I'm totally with you. Amare's agent asked for a Gasol-level deal and Amare went against the advice of his agent and went down to $14m because he wanted to stay in Phoenix (and it was probably as close to "hometown" discount as you can get) and our FO denied it. The next time we negotiate, do you think we're going to be negotiating with the same Amare that was OK with $14m a year or an Amare that wants $16m for 5 years or worst yet, Amare's agent who asked for $19m a year (Gasol's deal). Either way, it's not looking good.
you retain his Bird right until he sign with another team.
Stat will be a FREE agent ,Phx wont have the option of matching another deal
in order to keep Amare.He will receive the Max for teams like (NYK,NJ,MIA,CHI)
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
- Miklo
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
^does there need to be a massive overhaul if we keep Amar'e?
I know we don't wanna be stuck in an 8th seed rut, but look at our team compared to the squads a few years ago that we wish we could still run with. Our role players are very solid now, some better than those of the past. Nash is old but Dragic is young. RoLo, Duds, maybe Lou and Frye, Barbs as a role player or trading chip, I mean this team has a lot of room to grow despite its average age.
I know we don't wanna be stuck in an 8th seed rut, but look at our team compared to the squads a few years ago that we wish we could still run with. Our role players are very solid now, some better than those of the past. Nash is old but Dragic is young. RoLo, Duds, maybe Lou and Frye, Barbs as a role player or trading chip, I mean this team has a lot of room to grow despite its average age.
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
lilfishi22 wrote:
My issue with giving Amare max is that we're not a contending team and you can't give a guy a max contract if you are not contending. If he was a franchise player I could see him getting maybe 80% of a max deal, but he's not even a franchise guy. He's just a great scorer who does little else. The kind of deals you are talking about is reserved for the absolute top players in the league and if you are giving those deals to any lesser players, you are either mentally insane or you are super rich, our owner may be (Please Use More Appropriate Word), but he isn't made of money and he sees the Suns as a money making venture rather than a sport franchise.
Here's a bit of perspective for you. Kevin Garnett, one of the greatest power fowards ever to play the game, was given a 6-year $126m contract with the T-Wolves back in 97-98. A lot of people thought it was incredibly risky, not because he had injury concerns and not because people thought he had reached his potential, it was because the contract itself made it incredibly difficult for the team to sign players to get KG help. Guess what happened? 6 consecutive 1st round losses because he never had the supporting cast he needed to break through. In 03-04, the T-Wolves got to the WCF with a decent supporting cast and then missed playoffs for three straight years. Now we're talking KG here, who literally did it all, he was a 22/13/5/2/2 guy.
Now let's look at Amare Stoudemire here, one of the best power fowards in the game today. What you are proposing is to give him a similar contract that crippled the T-Wolves for basically the whole time KG's contract ran. We're talking 6 consecutive first round losses, and one WCF appearance and this is a HOF'er PF. Unlike KG, Amare does have the injury concerns, he's a lot older than KG when KG got his ridiculous contract, he's not a franchise player like KG and he's not going to get much better than he is now, basically, what you see is basically what you get. Add in an extremely frugal owner and you expect we would have more success with Amare on a max deal than KG did with the Wolves? You expect Amare, who isn't dominant on *both* ends of the court, is not a good play maker and not a particularly notable leader, to do what KG couldn't based on what exactly? If we assume Amare is better than KG for one moment and drops 28/10/2, now you have to deal with the fact that Sarver probably won't open his wallet until the pieces literally fall into place through some divine miracle.
What is the alternative? Getting Boozer or DLee for $12m a year and then sign another MLE player. That's one option. But like thamadkant said, just because we have $10 doesn't mean we have to spend it all. I don't have much confidence that our FO will get us the FA we need nor do I have confidence that hitting the lottery would get us some star rookie, but if crippling the team means we won't even be looking at FA and we may even have trouble resigning guys because one guy is taking up all the cap space, then taking a chance in the FA is an option we have to consider.
The concerns are there in plain view. Amare has injury concerns, he's not a franchise guy and doesn't deserve franchise money, giving him max money would hurt this team more than what we'll benefit from Amare's presence and with the new CBA coming in, it is not the best time for any team to be looking into max deals. If we can get Amare to sign for 14m for 5 years then kudos to our FO. Anything less than a Gasol contract, I can deal with. Anything more, and there will be serious consequences that our team will have to deal with.
My point, quite simply, is this:
I don't think rebuilding without Amare is the way to go, but there won't be a rebuild if keeping Amare means giving max money.
In your opinion, Celtics should never have given Pierce the max deal they did, right? KG never should have be given that max deal either in hindsight, because Wolves didn't see nothing from it. Actually, if Amare stays healthy, I'd take Amare over KG as the franchise player anytime. Do you remember Marbury's word regarding this too? And has Shaq called anybody else the future of NBA, ever? Too bad Amare got DA as the coach for too long to develop a complete game, but he seems to be finally catching up on his development as a more complete player now, after 2 severe injuries. But let's not dwell on this for now.
The point is it's much easier to build a contender with one piece of the core already in place, who is not necessarily the LBJ, TD, Kobe or Wade type franchise player. But a Melo, Pierce, Dirk, Bosh, Amare, Dwight, Roy, Durant, Paul, Williams would be a good foundation. And you hope to get another piece to make it work later. Without giving that max Pierce, a bad one with your logic, Celtics never would have won the title or been contender for the last 3 years.
And one crucial point you savvy business fans never seem to notice is that, market value means you could get equal value on the market! Kerr didn't believe Amare's market value would be high enough. That's judgment. Fine. But there is good reason to offer Amare market value in free agency, once it gets revealed. You always could trade him for other values, barring the normal business risk of injury-induced loss on value!
In the end, it's about committing to building a contender, ie. the lack thereof, that supposedly bothered Amare. With the revelation of the new Amare, maybe the management finally come to sense that it can be done with Amare as one continuous piece for the future while Nash still very productive for probably two more years. We will see it in the playoffs, when Amare proves again he is no Bosh.
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
- lilfishi22
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
dantian wrote:In your opinion, Celtics should never have given Pierce the max deal they did, right? KG never should have be given that max deal either in hindsight, because Wolves didn't see nothing from it. Actually, if Amare stays healthy, I'd take Amare over KG as the franchise player anytime. Do you remember Marbury's word regarding this too? And has Shaq called anybody else the future of NBA, ever? Too bad Amare got DA as the coach for too long to develop a complete game, but he seems to be finally catching up on his development as a more complete player now, after 2 severe injuries. But let's not dwell on this for now.
First of all, nobody would ever take Amare over KG. Only the most unreasonable homers would ever consider. But of course, how could I be so silly, the words of the legendary Shaquille O'neal and the great Stephon Marbury are worth more than anything in this world. Let's just totally disregard KG's effect on his team, how he made his team mates better and how he put up those ridiculous stats, oh and that MVP award means jack, because Shaq's words are worth more than all of that. Don't forget Shaq also said he'd bring us a ring and where is he now?
The point is it's much easier to build a contender with one piece of the core already in place, who is not necessarily the LBJ, TD, Kobe or Wade type franchise player. But a Melo, Pierce, Dirk, Bosh, Amare, Dwight, Roy, Durant, Paul, Williams would be a good foundation. And you hope to get another piece to make it work later. Without giving that max Pierce, a bad one with your logic, Celtics never would have won the title or been contender for the last 3 years.
The difference is that they have owners that are willing to pay for a contender, we don't. We have an owner that sees the Suns as a business venture rather than a sporting franchise. Unless it's a no-brainer investment ie, all the right contending pieces are in line, he's not going to open his wallet. I also don't think Kerr has what it takes to get us those right pieces either. So basically what we are left with is a $20m man that can't make his team mates better and and owner who won't pay to make this team any better than a fringe playoff or a lower seed playoff team.
In case you forgot, Pierce was basically on a max deal before he got his $60m extension in the off season of 06. Since signing his 5 year deal prior to his $60m extension, he took the Celtics to EC semi's once, lost in the 1st round of playoffs twice and missed the playoffs twice. Since signing his first major contract to just before the KG/Ray Allen trade, the Celtics had an average win total of 36.4 wins per season and this was in a time when the East were incredibly weak. They got the ECF's once when Pierce was still on the rookie salary. But your argument is completely flawed, the Celtics weren't a contender because they had Pierce on a max deal, they were a contender because they had THREE franchise guys on max or close-to-max deals. Unless we have an owner that is willing to have 3 max guys to make us a contender, your argument has no weight. And in case you forgot, the season he got his max extension, the Celtics were a lottery team. If Ainge hadn't pulled off one of the biggest trades for one of the greatest players in NBA history, Pierce would still be sitting on a max deal by himself on a fringe playoff/lottery team. What Ainge did was a once a decade thing, I mean, 3 maxed-out franchise guys on one team? That's almost unheard of.
Once again, unless Sarver is willing to pay for 3 max guys and we have a GM who could pull of a trade like Ainge did, you have no argument.
And one crucial point you savvy business fans never seem to notice is that, market value means you could get equal value on the market! Kerr didn't believe Amare's market value would be high enough. That's judgment. Fine. But there is good reason to offer Amare market value in free agency, once it gets revealed. You always could trade him for other values, barring the normal business risk of injury-induced loss on value!
Market value (MV) changes all the time, his market value this off-season will most likely be significantly higher than his MV the next off-season and his MV will continue to decrease with age and as the chances of injuries increase. Basically, if you overpay him one season, the level at which he is getting overpaid is going to continue to increase as his market value decreases. You can't assume his value will stay the same and just say "barring normal business risk of injury-induced loss" because those risks are real and even likely with Amare's past injury history and his MF surgically repaired knees.
And like always, you almost never get the same value back for a player of Amare's caliber in a trade so I don't really understand where you're getting at with this argument.
In the end, it's about committing to building a contender, ie. the lack thereof, that supposedly bothered Amare. With the revelation of the new Amare, maybe the management finally come to sense that it can be done with Amare as one continuous piece for the future while Nash still very productive for probably two more years. We will see it in the playoffs, when Amare proves again he is no Bosh.
We have been one of the best teams this decade, we got to the WCF twice and if we had gotten a couple of lucky breaks, we may have even won a championship. We did all those things because it was during a time when the economy was healthy and our owner had a willingness to spend (ie. got into LT) and we had guys like Marion, Bell, JJ, KT and TT, all of whom made excellent supporting cast for Nash and Amare. If we couldn't get to the finals when Amare was younger and healthier all those times and we had ALL-NBA defenders in Bell and arguable Marion, how could we pull off the same kind of success when we have neither the defenders, the supporting cast nor an owner who is willing to spend? If Amare is bothered by our lack of championship aspirations then he should consider this as well, Chicago with Rose, Miami with Wade, Nets with potentially Wall and Knicks with JJ are arguably already better starting duos than what we have in Phoenix, especially with Nash only getting older and his contract ending in two seasons.
This team with Amare will stay competitive probably for another one or two seasons, but it's after that when the real question marks start to get noticed by a lot of fans. With no Nash, can Amare get it done consistently as "the man"? Who are we going to fill the roster with now that guys like Hill and JRich are gone. Are those replacements going to make us into contenders? Would Sarver open his wallet once again when we have cap space again or will he use just the cap space and never reaching LT.
There is a s**tload of question marks and giving Amare a max deal is undeniable an extremely risk move, that would require everything to go our way for it to pay off. You ask, how many lottery teams have bombed out and then come back to be very competitive like the Blazers and the Thunder? The answer is not many, teams like Chicago, Memphis and Kings are still in rebuild mode. I am not denying the fact that guys of Amare's caliber don't come around very often. But what about this question, how many superstar role players on max deals have ever lived up to their contract and brought success to the team?
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
lilfishi,
I'm glad you see how bleak the "rebuilding" option by letting Amare walk is. The failure of DA's Suns had one single reason, team was made so that it could only function well when Nash functioned well, but Nash got worn out to carry us further, partially due to grind over season partially due much better defense in playoffs. So, for the Suns to have any chance, they have to keep to work on functioning without Nash over-dominating the ball just like they have been experimenting with. Amare has been quickly learning how to handle the additional duties on offense which DA and Nash didn't give him, as Nash's team was about "sharing the wealth". (You know Nash is a communist, don't you
)
Anyway, if you have to suck over 10 years to come back to relevance via rebuilding, the worst case scenario would be to do that carrying a max deal for 3 of those years. You will have to suck to get high lottery picks anyway and would love to have the excuse that aside draft picks you only fill the roster with min. players due to the max. Who'd care then? (I believe teams must carry 40 mil or so min. salary even if you were to function like the Clippers by sucking. So, 20 mil of that going to one player instead of 3 players at same price would get you 5-10 more wins to reduce your chances at high draft picks!)
Thus, the only justifiable motivation to let Amare walk instead paying him the market value to stay, is the belief that in 2 or 3 years we could rebuild with cap space like NY will do this year, or Orlando did with Hill/TMac and LA with Shaq some 10 years ago. But not because we need to rebuild via drafts. How realistic is that option? And then the question is wouldn't it still be better to hang on to Amare and wait for the KG's to fall into our lap?
I'm glad you see how bleak the "rebuilding" option by letting Amare walk is. The failure of DA's Suns had one single reason, team was made so that it could only function well when Nash functioned well, but Nash got worn out to carry us further, partially due to grind over season partially due much better defense in playoffs. So, for the Suns to have any chance, they have to keep to work on functioning without Nash over-dominating the ball just like they have been experimenting with. Amare has been quickly learning how to handle the additional duties on offense which DA and Nash didn't give him, as Nash's team was about "sharing the wealth". (You know Nash is a communist, don't you

Anyway, if you have to suck over 10 years to come back to relevance via rebuilding, the worst case scenario would be to do that carrying a max deal for 3 of those years. You will have to suck to get high lottery picks anyway and would love to have the excuse that aside draft picks you only fill the roster with min. players due to the max. Who'd care then? (I believe teams must carry 40 mil or so min. salary even if you were to function like the Clippers by sucking. So, 20 mil of that going to one player instead of 3 players at same price would get you 5-10 more wins to reduce your chances at high draft picks!)
Thus, the only justifiable motivation to let Amare walk instead paying him the market value to stay, is the belief that in 2 or 3 years we could rebuild with cap space like NY will do this year, or Orlando did with Hill/TMac and LA with Shaq some 10 years ago. But not because we need to rebuild via drafts. How realistic is that option? And then the question is wouldn't it still be better to hang on to Amare and wait for the KG's to fall into our lap?
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
- lilfishi22
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
dantian wrote:I'm glad you see how bleak the "rebuilding" option by letting Amare walk is.
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Thus, the only justifiable motivation to let Amare walk instead paying him the market value to stay, is the belief that in 2 or 3 years we could rebuild with cap space like NY will do this year, or Orlando did with Hill/TMac and LA with Shaq some 10 years ago. But not because we need to rebuild via drafts. How realistic is that option? And then the question is wouldn't it still be better to hang on to Amare and wait for the KG's to fall into our lap?
I understand what you are trying to say. You're basically saying, if we're going to suck anyway, why not suck with Amare on our payroll and hope a star will sign with us when we have cap space. Correct me if I'm wrong about your interpretation.
Rebuilding is always bleak at first.
If you overpay Amare now, the chances of another star "falling in our lap" would dramatically decrease because of our inability to sign them, especially from FA. It is also extremely difficult to get the kind of cap space to sign a 2nd star, in particular if you already have one maxed out player. The teams currently with cap space like Chicago, Miami, Nets etc etc, didn't just happen to have cap space (coincidentally when Lebron is an FA), they gave away assets and took back expiring. Basically we have to suck for a little while with a roster filled with expirings to get those stars. Also, you can't simply reload unless you have an owner who is willing to keep paying to build a contending team, otherwise this is basically a rebuild.
The point is, to make what you are proposing work, you need to put all your eggs in one basket (and everyone is laughing at NY because they aren't gonna get Lebron.) Not only that, you also have to follow through by spending money to sign complementary guys to make your stars play better. All of this costs money that Sarver just won't spend. This "plan" you are proposing is more intricate and complex than "just letting JRich and Nash expire."
By the time Nash expires, Dudley, Lou, Barbs would've been up for an extension already. Assuming Dudley will command roughly an MLE contract, ($5.5m) Lou for $2m and Barbs for an extended contract at roughly $6.5m, we'll already have 14m, committed to 3 players. The same year Barbosa is up for an extension, Amare will earn $19.36m, which means, if Barbosa opts in (he has a player option in 11-12), we'll have approx. $6.84m of cap space that season. The season after, when Nash's contract expires, Amare will earn $21.12m + about 15m for Lou, Dudley, Barbs, that leaves us $18.83m in cap room, assuming we go into that off-season with all expirings except for Amare, Lou, Dudley, Barbs, Lopez and EC (Dragic is also up for a new contract so minus his new contract from the cap). Which is nice, except for that fact that our FO will have to sign guys to minimum deals if we want to preserve cap space for 2012-2013, which means we'll have to suck for at least one or two seasons. Keep in mind that we'll have $8m in cap space (if I calculated properly) if Amare walks and if we use it up, it will most likely be for extending guys who have expired or signing someone from FA, which means we'll probably be adding long-term money.
So in 2012-2013, we'll have $18.83m to spend on an FA. This is assuming we do what Miami basically did by sucking for a few season as a result of keeping 1 maximum level player and collecting expirings. Keep in mind, Wade is on a maximum contract after leaving the rookie salary, which means he's "only" earning roughly $14.5m over the life of his extension. We on the other hand, will have Amare in our books for roughly $20m over the life of his extension. That's $5m of cap space, that Miami will have this off-season that we won't have.
The plan is all good and dandy, if our owner and FO agree on this 4-year plan by possibly missing playoffs for at least 2 out of the 4 years to get cap space. That is just not something Sarver would allow because missing playoffs would mean a huge decrease in revenue. Sarver is going to use our cap space to keep us competitive (which means the plan of getting the cap room in 2012-2013 won't happen) even if it means losing in the 1st round.
The alternative to your plan is (well, best case scenario) sign Amare to a reasonable deal at 14-15m a year. But if that doesn't happen, which is likely, then we'll try do a S&T. The problem with S&T is that Amare has to agree and it is difficult to S&T with Miami because they have no assets. The other option is to let him walk, which is the worst possible outcome for us. But assuming Sarver won't max out Amare "on principle," then we'll have a fair bit of cap space in 2011-2012, enough to sign a max player, with Nash still in the books. Which means, we could potentially put together a good team in 2011-2012 when we still have Nash.
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
- miamiballer
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
well, if amare decides he wants to go to mia and is willing to walk there would you sign and trade him to us for a 1st rd pick and maybe cook
this helps us because we can go over teh cap to keep our own players
this helps us because we can go over teh cap to keep our own players
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
miamiballer wrote:well, if amare decides he wants to go to mia and is willing to walk there would you sign and trade him to us for a 1st rd pick and maybe cook
I think he already has a deal with the Suns to extend after the playoffs (which always has been his #1 choice).
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
- miamiballer
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
Mr. Sun wrote:miamiballer wrote:well, if amare decides he wants to go to mia and is willing to walk there would you sign and trade him to us for a 1st rd pick and maybe cook
I think he already has a deal with the Suns to extend after the playoffs (which always has been his #1 choice).
ok but if that doesnt work out....would you rather watch him walk or get a 1st if hes for sure leaving
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
Mr. Sun wrote:
I think he already has a deal with the Suns to extend after the playoffs (which always has been his #1 choice).

What ? Me Worry ?
Re: Amare didn't request max money...
- lilfishi22
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
Frank Lee wrote:Mr. Sun wrote:
I think he already has a deal with the Suns to extend after the playoffs (which always has been his #1 choice).
I think the deal is 14m for 4 years and the Kerr/Sarver will say no.
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Re: Amare didn't request max money...
You know, I have been on the fence about signing Amare as much an anyone. His heart and body have been questioned, as well as his ability. Since the allstar break there is no doubt he is the F#$@ing man, and i feel silly to have doubted him. Yes i know, he didnt turn it on until after the allstar break, well he seems to usually turn it on down the streach of the season if not hurt if you look at history. I was on the bandwagon to try to trade him to the Blazers for a package that included Aldredge, saying he is as good or better. I was at the game lastnight and Aldredge couldnt carry Stats jock strap. He bullied that whole team so badly that they seemed scared of him. When he got the ball within 15 ft of the basket, you could see the fear in the eyes of whoever was guarding him, and he was too big, too fast, and too physical for everyone who tried to guard him, it was unreal at some points. I still wouldnt sign him to max money, but if he really is willing to take Gasol type #s, HELL YES!!! he should get that. 2nd half of the season he has been far and away the best Pf in the league, and i think its because he is being featured more, and the emergence of Lopez is helping also, they seem like a good duo, not to mention J. Rich keeping people honest on the peremeter lately. We need to find a way to keep him on the payroll and motivated.