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The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here..

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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#201 » by richardhutnik » Mon Mar 8, 2010 2:29 am

cgf wrote:Is it wishful thinking on my part or could germany really not bail out Greece and Spain? We're too bleeding heart as a people to let it happen, but if we did I'd be so proud of my soon to be ex-country. Greece is going to fail to make significant headway on their budget gap and hopefully when that happens we say nah-uh, no more for you. I just find it so ridiculous that Greece and soon Sapin are going to come begging a country like germany, that works more hours, retires later and in general is more productive to come bail them out.


I guess, from an American perspective is that, if they fail to do something, the EU is going to mess up the Euro. This helps America.

- Rich
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#202 » by cgf » Mon Mar 8, 2010 3:21 pm

richardhutnik wrote:
cgf wrote:Is it wishful thinking on my part or could germany really not bail out Greece and Spain? We're too bleeding heart as a people to let it happen, but if we did I'd be so proud of my soon to be ex-country. Greece is going to fail to make significant headway on their budget gap and hopefully when that happens we say nah-uh, no more for you. I just find it so ridiculous that Greece and soon Sapin are going to come begging a country like germany, that works more hours, retires later and in general is more productive to come bail them out.


I guess, from an American perspective is that, if they fail to do something, the EU is going to mess up the Euro. This helps America.

- Rich


Not really. It'll only help protect the status quo in america which is not a good thing. The US is like Isiah's knicks, expensive, unproductive and wasteful, but just one piece away from winning it all, so instead of tearing everything down and building something that can actually succeed and do so consistently we keep trying to find that one piece while we keep the current crap together.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#203 » by richardhutnik » Tue Mar 9, 2010 1:19 am

cgf wrote:
richardhutnik wrote:I guess, from an American perspective is that, if they fail to do something, the EU is going to mess up the Euro. This helps America.

- Rich


Not really. It'll only help protect the status quo in america which is not a good thing. The US is like Isiah's knicks, expensive, unproductive and wasteful, but just one piece away from winning it all, so instead of tearing everything down and building something that can actually succeed and do so consistently we keep trying to find that one piece while we keep the current crap together.


Is there some sort of mythical scoreboard and rulebook that America has to be concerned about regarding how it remains on top? Is America supposed to go through some "race toward the bottom" in order to supposedly be "more competitive" with China and India, where all sorts of quality standards are thrown out?

I think you may of taken the Isiah metaphor too far. Exactly what "tearing down" do you wish to happen? Do you want the unemployment rate to shoot up to around 25% or higher, for example? Do you want to have all semblance of social security and medicare to be dismantled, and the elderly end up with nothing, being forced to live out on the streets? What sort of dismantling do you want America to have?

- Rich
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Post#204 » by cgf » Tue Mar 9, 2010 1:33 am

It would be a nice start if this country didn't respond to every recession by trying to inflate another bubble. Unemployment is over 15%, real unemployment, and we still haven't bottomed out. Things will continue to get worse while the feds try and spend their way out of it, instead of letting things get really bad for a few months while investment is shifted from the falsely inflated fields, i.e. housing, to more productive sectors of the economy and letting this country take its lumps and start growing again like was done during the depression of 1920 we just set up the next collapse.
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Post#205 » by richardhutnik » Tue Mar 9, 2010 6:28 pm

cgf wrote:It would be a nice start if this country didn't respond to every recession by trying to inflate another bubble. Unemployment is over 15%, real unemployment, and we still haven't bottomed out. Things will continue to get worse while the feds try and spend their way out of it, instead of letting things get really bad for a few months while investment is shifted from the falsely inflated fields, i.e. housing, to more productive sectors of the economy and letting this country take its lumps and start growing again like was done during the depression of 1920 we just set up the next collapse.


Since the 1970s, Americans have been losing ground. Consider the issues you describe to go beyond just the inflation of the money supply. America built itself on a pile of debt and is afraid of having large shifts happen, because it could totally undermine the financial system worse than it has been. Even now, they are trying to deal with the large consumer debt, and there would be a second reverb from this fallout that would cause everything to collapse. The financial industry is fearful for its life if even large unemployment happened, so they keep pushing for cheap money and other things.

So no, there isn't a needed shift happening as much as it had. I also don't expect consumer spending to return to levels it has been at, based on unsecured debt, to the level it has been. There is no other place for people to go that has value to undermine things. The last vestige, real estate, tanked.

- Rich
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#206 » by SportsWorld » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:57 am

Obamacare passes 219-212
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Post#207 » by ElMatatan » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:52 am

YEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!


Health Care!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#208 » by tuckerfor3 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:29 am

ignorance is bliss
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Post#209 » by mugzi » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:52 pm

I was waiting for this monstrosity to be passed before I commented. The tactics used to pass a piece of legislation so large in scope were deplorable. Im sure public sentiment which was already against this will be heard in November.

It’s NOT a Health Bill, NOT a Medicare Tax and It Can’t Possibly Cost Only $940 Billion
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The “reconciliation bill” is not a “health bill” but an anti-health bill. It relies heavily on price controls, taxes and fines to punish doctors, hospitals and formerly innovative companies the produce prescription drugs and medical devices. If we treated farmers, food companies and grocery stores the way Congress threatens to treat the health industries would anybody expect food to become better or cheaper?

The 3.8% tax on both labor and investment income is not a “Medicare tax.” It’s surtax on income that goes into the slush fund, not the Medicare trust.The bill could not possibly cost “only” $940 billion unless it contained a sunset provision — repealing the law after 2019.

In fact, new spending is negligible for four years. At that point the government would start luring sixteen million more people into Medicaid’s leaky gravy train, and start handing out subsidies to families earning up to $88,000. Spending then jumps from $54 billion in 2014 to $216 billion in 2019. That’s just the beginning.

To be unduly optimistic (more so than the CBO), assume that the new entitlement schemes only increased by 7% a year. At that rate spending would double every ten years — to $432 billion a year in 2029, $864 billion a year in 2039, and more than $1.72 trillion by 2049. That $1.72 trillion is a conservative projection of extra spending in one year, not ten. How could that possibly not add to future deficits?

Could anyone really imagine that the bill’s new taxes and fines could possibly grow by 7% a year? On the contrary, most of the claimed revenues are either a timing fraud (such as treating $70 billion for long-term care premiums as newly found treasure) or self-defeating.

The hypothetical tax on Cadillac plans (suspiciously postponed until 2018), for example, is designed to discourage such plans from being offered by employers or wanted by employees — that is, it’s designed to yield less and less over time.

Moreover, the accumulating penalties on reporting joint incomes above $250,000 — a 39.6% tax, a 3.8 % income surtax, a 0.9% Medicare surtax, rapid phasing-out of deductions and exemptions — would greatly discourage any activity that would push income above $250,000. Most obviously, no sensible family whose income is normally below that pain threshold would be so foolish as to sell enough assets to let capital gains to push them over the line.
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Post#210 » by richardhutnik » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:40 pm

Figures mugzi would complain about tactics Democrats use, while remaining silent about what the GOP does.

Things would of been far less of a headache if there was just a public option to push the industry to do what it needed, even if it was set up as a non-profit. But NO, too many complaints so we get this plan that is like what Nixon proposed decades ago, and like what Mass. uses (Mitt Romney signed that into law).

Here has been the typical line of partisan thought I have seen said by people who only care about their own:
* Complaints about the vote, and saying it bill is unconstitutional, while not caring what the prior administration did. Same with complaints about the bill and deficits, when Dubya gets a free pass.
* I mention the Harvard study on the amount of deaths due to people being uninsured, and my mentioning Harvard gets laughed at, as if Harvard is the Weekly World News.
* I am then told that there is always the emergency room for those who need health care. Ok, so crisis intervention is how we are supposed to run health care, rather than having a focus on prevention, such as checkups, which is cheaper? I was then told someone who is a nurse doesn't have health care. Skin color was mentioned. Anyhow, a reason why the emergency room is brought up is that individuals who claim it feel it is their safety net. They like they idea that mandates by the government require places to not be able to turn them away. I bet if the emergency rooms could turn people away, they would be upset. Fear of illegals ruining their safety net also comes into play also. One has to wonder who would end up having an emergency room as a safety net of last resort for people. Maybe we could also set up soup kitches and shelter in hospitals to.
* Then people say that the current system is ok for 80%, why not just fix the other 20%? Well, do these people have answer, or do they only care about the other 20% when the government decides it needs to step in?

- Rich
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Post#211 » by mugzi » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:01 am

Figures Hutnik would pop in to defend his party. Congrats, now you dont have to decide between life and death or going to the hospital w/o insurance.

The whole way this went down was shady. The reconciliation tactic has been used by the right but never in this capacity. It was just a underhanded power grab.

This bill is nothing more than another social welfare program and won't reduce costs, it'll be another albatross on the national debt, and will erode the quality of care.

I've said my peace, enjoy the spoils of a tainted victory Dicky.
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Post#212 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:20 am

mugzi wrote:Figures Hutnik would pop in to defend his party. Congrats, now you dont have to decide between life and death or going to the hospital w/o insurance.

The whole way this went down was shady. The reconciliation tactic has been used by the right but never in this capacity. It was just a underhanded power grab.

This bill is nothing more than another social welfare program and won't reduce costs, it'll be another albatross on the national debt, and will erode the quality of care.

I've said my peace, enjoy the spoils of a tainted victory Dicky.


Hey. Where ya been, buddy? Things have been a little quiet here without you. I thought maybe you might have hung yourself.

Welcome to the new America. Healthcare for all!!! Bwahahaha.

As a small business owner, I'm sure you'll be applying for that TAX CREDIT that's apart of the bill. Hmmmm?

Anyhow, this is just the beginning. Pretty soon, Adolph Obama will be passing out free copies of Marx's Communist Manifesto.
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Post#213 » by Fury » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:20 am

Adolph and Communist should not be in the same sentence considering they're total opposites. I know you're just playing but get your exaggerations right.
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Post#214 » by mugzi » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:23 am

Wingo, Ive just been working man, I stop by the board and this thread on occasion for a good laugh. It'll be interesting to see how the voters react to this usurping of power. I bet it'll hurt the democrats in the polls and thats the best I can hope for right now.

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Post#215 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:02 am

Fury wrote:Adolph and Communist should not be in the same sentence considering they're total opposites. I know you're just playing but get your exaggerations right.


Exactly. But that's how stupid these people are. That's what they do ... they put them both together. I know. Amazing.

:rofl:
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Post#216 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:04 am

mugzi wrote:Wingo, Ive just been working man, I stop by the board and this thread on occasion for a good laugh. It'll be interesting to see how the voters react to this usurping of power. I bet it'll hurt the democrats in the polls and thats the best I can hope for right now.

The proletariat revolution is in full swing!


Well, hope you're making more money for the government to tax. (Just kidding ... about the tax part.)

So, in all seriousness, how is this small business tax credit going to affect your business? Will it make it easier for you to provide HC insurance to your employees?
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Post#217 » by richardhutnik » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:03 am

Here is Cenk on the plan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO6JXVBeBgs&feature=sub

That is TYT pointing out the large problems with the plan.

- Rich
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Post#218 » by richardhutnik » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:07 am

mugzi wrote:Figures Hutnik would pop in to defend his party. Congrats, now you dont have to decide between life and death or going to the hospital w/o insurance.

The whole way this went down was shady. The reconciliation tactic has been used by the right but never in this capacity. It was just a underhanded power grab.

This bill is nothing more than another social welfare program and won't reduce costs, it'll be another albatross on the national debt, and will erode the quality of care.

I've said my peace, enjoy the spoils of a tainted victory Dicky.


Really mugzi, and what party is that? Oh right... you think I am registered a Democrat. Mmm''k. Well, one can't expect you to be right in the area of politics, so someone needs to cut you slack.

You may of seen, by the way, issues with the bill, raised even by someone on the left, which I posted in here. But hey mugzi, you are more than happy to play politics with this, even as people end up dying as a result. In your world, you don't believe people die for the lack of health insurance. Reality is a tad different though.

Do you even flippin know what is in the plan Mugzi?

- Rich
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Post#219 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:20 am

Yeah, I thought that was pretty funny that you, Rich, became the poster boy for the democratic party.
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Post#220 » by richardhutnik » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:25 am

HawthorneWingo wrote:Yeah, I thought that was pretty funny that you, Rich, became the poster boy for the democratic party.


Something must of resulted with a HUGE falling out, because I did work on the Ron Paul campaign where I was. Oh wait, it was that the campaign didn't give me any money back, eventhough they sat on over $10 million extra. Also, I happen to be on unemployment now, and can't get any health coverage. I also see the GOP politicians act like the worst of hypocrites I would hard to surpass. And I guess it means that the Democrats have the Independent voters locked up.

- Rich
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