The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here..

[HarthorneWingo]

Yeah, I thought that was pretty funny that you, Rich, became the poster boy for the democratic party.

Something must of resulted with a HUGE falling out, because I did work on the Ron Paul campaign where I was. Oh wait, it was that the campaign didn't give me any money back, eventhough they sat on over $10 million extra. Also, I happen to be on unemployment now, and can't get any health coverage. I also see the GOP politicians act like the worst of hypocrites I would hard to surpass. And I guess it means that the Democrats have the Independent voters locked up.

- Rich

Wait till everyone sees that the repercussions of the bill aren't as bad as the republicans made them out to be. Check out the quotes from David Frum, a conservative who writes for the WSJ.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/23/us/po ... bs.html?hp

Political Memo
G.O.P. Faces Drawbacks of United Stand on Health Bill
By ADAM NAGOURNEY
Published: March 22, 2010

* * *

David Frum, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, the conservative research organization, said Republicans had tried to defeat the bill to undermine Mr. Obama politically, but in the process had given up a chance of influencing a huge bill. Mr. Frum said his party’s stance sowed doubts with the public about its ideas and leadership credentials, and ultimately failed in a way that expanded Mr. Obama’s power. “The political imperative crowded out the policy imperative,” Mr. Frum said. “And the Republicans have now lost both.”

“Politically, I get the ‘let’s trip up the other side, make them fail’ strategy,” he said. “But what’s more important, to win extra seats or to shape the most important piece of social legislation since the 1960s? It was a go-for-all-the-marbles approach. Unless they produced an absolute failure for Mr. Obama, there wasn’t going to be any political benefit.”

* * *

“When our core group discover that this thing is not as catastrophic as advertised, they are going to be less energized than they are right now,” Mr. Frum said. He warned that the energy Republicans were finding now among base voters would fade.

[HarthorneWingo]

It gets even better from Frum on his forum:

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

Waterloo
March 21st, 2010 at 4:59 pm by David Frum | No Comments |
Share

Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s. It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for today’s expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections.

But: (1) It’s a good bet that conservatives are over-optimistic about November – by then the economy will have improved and the immediate goodies in the healthcare bill will be reaching key voting blocs. (2) So what? Legislative majorities come and go. This healthcare bill is forever. A win in November is very poor compensation for this debacle now.

So far, I think a lot of conservatives will agree with me. Now comes the hard lesson: A huge part of the blame for today’s disaster attaches to conservatives and Republicans ourselves.

- more -

[cgf]

Yeah, I thought that was pretty funny that you, Rich, became the poster boy for the democratic party.

Something must of resulted with a HUGE falling out, because I did work on the Ron Paul campaign where I was. Oh wait, it was that the campaign didn't give me any money back, eventhough they sat on over $10 million extra. Also, I happen to be on unemployment now, and can't get any health coverage. I also see the GOP politicians act like the worst of hypocrites I would hard to surpass. And I guess it means that the Democrats have the Independent voters locked up.

- Rich

Rich you've gotta stop trying to name drop about the ron paul campaign, you may have worked on that campaign but you've argued against them numerous times in this thread.

As for the healthcare bill I guess I can't complain since it means my family will make more money, it just sucks that instead of trying to cut costs so that medical care doesn't continue to be ridiculously over-priced in the US, but oh well, this will just speed up the US defaulting on its debt which will hopefully open an oppurtunity for Texas to secede, although that's probably just wishful thinking.

[cgf]

And mugzi WTF are you doing bitching about procedure when the GOP uses the same ****. Only difference is when the republicans do it it's because they're patriotic, whereas when the dems do it they're communists. It's a bad bill and will only be expanded and made worse as time passes, but the tactics used to get it passed aren't why it's a **** bill.

[cgf]

Anyway let's talk about something less emotional, is anyone else shocked at how willing the Obama administration has been to not suck on the israeli teet? God knows I have my issues with the administration, but I've gotta give them props. Of course if Israel keeps up building settlements and doing their best to prevent peace in the middle east the US won't do anything but support them but at least the dialogue has shifted.

[richardhutnik]

Yeah, I thought that was pretty funny that you, Rich, became the poster boy for the democratic party.

Something must of resulted with a HUGE falling out, because I did work on the Ron Paul campaign where I was. Oh wait, it was that the campaign didn't give me any money back, eventhough they sat on over $10 million extra. Also, I happen to be on unemployment now, and can't get any health coverage. I also see the GOP politicians act like the worst of hypocrites I would hard to surpass. And I guess it means that the Democrats have the Independent voters locked up.

- Rich

Rich you've gotta stop trying to name drop about the ron paul campaign, you may have worked on that campaign but you've argued against them numerous times in this thread.

As for the healthcare bill I guess I can't complain since it means my family will make more money, it just sucks that instead of trying to cut costs so that medical care doesn't continue to be ridiculously over-priced in the US, but oh well, this will just speed up the US defaulting on its debt which will hopefully open an opportunity for Texas to secede, although that's probably just wishful thinking.

I have respect for Ron Paul, and also agree with a number of things he has spoken on, including auditing the Federal Reserve. I also agree with him regarding the whole preemptive wars needing to end. I stand with the general respect for the Constitution. I have not seen any proposal for fixing the health system from him at all. I also am on government money, which tempers any Libertarian bent I have. And that is the issue. Something called reality has resulted in myself becoming an Independent, rather than being a Republican due to the Ron Paul campaign. And I see sheer BALLSY hypocritical cries out of the GOP partisan side of things.

- Rich

[cgf]

Ron Paul is republican in name only given how the neo-cons have driven the party insane. Discrediting Ron Paul with the GOP is as unfair as comparing Kucinich to the democratic party. I understand that you're on the government dole and thus can't be a Libertarian, but that's exactly it, don't try and present yourself as some Libertarian at heart when you aren't.

As for a libertarian solution I've gone into how we could drastically re-vamp the system to cut costs dramatically and make health care actually affordable, letting us ultimately cut out the cruel insurance companies we all loathe. But that won't happen because the established players make too much money with the stat quo to let politicians deliver any positive change.

[HarthorneWingo]

And mugzi WTF are you doing bitching about procedure when the GOP uses the same ****. Only difference is when the republicans do it it's because they're patriotic, whereas when the dems do it they're communists. It's a bad bill and will only be expanded and made worse as time passes, but the tactics used to get it passed aren't why it's a **** bill.

[richardhutnik]

Ron Paul is republican in name only given how the neo-cons have driven the party insane. Discrediting Ron Paul with the GOP is as unfair as comparing Kucinich to the democratic party. I understand that you're on the government dole and thus can't be a Libertarian, but that's exactly it, don't try and present yourself as some Libertarian at heart when you aren't.

As for a libertarian solution I've gone into how we could drastically re-vamp the system to cut costs dramatically and make health care actually affordable, letting us ultimately cut out the cruel insurance companies we all loathe. But that won't happen because the established players make too much money with the stat quo to let politicians deliver any positive change.

Ron Paul is a Republican in the mold of Goldwater, going back to Paleo-Conservatives, with a stronger focus on State's Rights. One can argue that he is not representative of the current form of the Republican party, but one can see he does go back to Pre-Reagan Republicans that actually led to Reagan in power. Due to Paul having a focus on state's rights (in ALL things), he will differ from the Buchanan wing of the GOP. Buchanan believes we need the federal government to get involved with issues like pornography, drug use, prostitution and abortion, because these are believed to be too important to be left in the hands of the states to decide (well, the push to make abortion go back to the states is just to make it illegal some places, because of failure to outlaw abortion via the constitutional amendment route).

I actually never said I am a Libertarian at heart. In the case of myself, I did test as a centrist, right on the cusp of Libertarian, but I can't say I am in camp with Libertarian fully, at least as a life philosophy. I do believe, however, that it is important that people do what is needed without government, so that government isn't needed. I believe solutions do need to start locally, and would likely fall more in the Buchanan camp in that I do believe we do have a social fabric of values that, if it gets trashed, ends up resulting in with society sliding down a slope into destruction. This would be similar to what Huckabee stands for also.

- Rich

[mugzi]

And mugzi WTF are you doing bitching about procedure when the GOP uses the same ****. Only difference is when the republicans do it it's because they're patriotic, whereas when the dems do it they're communists. It's a bad bill and will only be expanded and made worse as time passes, but the tactics used to get it passed aren't why it's a **** bill.

CGF, since you know so much about reconciliation, why dont you pull up the bills the GOP used to get passed with this tactic and compare them in SIZE, SCOPE AND EFFECT to the healthcare bill?

Yup, I thought so.

It was an underhanded power grab to gain control of 1/6th of the economy, when more than half of this country was against the bill in the first place. Thats my gripe with it, and its valid.

I dont expect the resident crypto Marxists here to see it that way but when your proposing something that will affect every American directly or indirectly and use this tactic its a black eye on the legislative process and will only lead to states suing to block it from happening and more rancor and partisan divide in Washington.

[mugzi]

Investors Business Daily gives a snapshot of things to come...

20 Ways ObamaCare Will Take Away Our Freedoms
By David Hogberg
Posted 03/21/2010 03:24 PM ET

If some reports are to be believed, the Democrats will pass the Senate health care bill with some reconciliation changes later today. Thus, it is worthwhile to take a comprehensive look at the freedoms we will lose.

Of course, the bill is supposed to provide us with security. But it will result in skyrocketing insurance costs and physicians leaving the field in droves, making it harder to afford and find medical care. We may be about to live Benjamin Franklin’s adage, “People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.”

The sections described below are taken from HR 3590 as agreed to by the Senate and from the reconciliation bill as displayed by the Rules Committee.

Post edited. Please limit excepts of copyrighted materials to three paragraphs or less.

[richardhutnik]

Here is an AP news article on the details of the health care plan:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD9EKFLQG0

Hey, maybe we are all better off being like Rush Limbaugh, where we have half the costs of an SUV lying around to pay for medical procedures.

- Rich

[mugzi]

You have admitted to being dependent on govt for survival so why should anyone take your opinion with anything other than a grain of salt?

Big govt and entitlement healthcare is right up your alley, so spare us the semantics.

A man should be judged by his actions, and yours say 'Im gonna get as much as I can while I can.' Youve admitted that much before.

Thats your American way, not mine.

[BelieveTheDream]

guys quick question i dont know if it was asked already but WHEN DOES THE NEW HEALTHCARE SYSTEM kick in does anybody know?

[richardhutnik]

You have admitted to being dependent on govt for survival so why should anyone take your opinion with anything other than a grain of salt?

Big govt and entitlement healthcare is right up your alley, so spare us the semantics.

A man should be judged by his actions, and yours say 'Im gonna get as much as I can while I can.' Youve admitted that much before.

Thats your American way, not mine.

You are the one who suggested, as a way to make money, to illegally sell cigarettes outside bars in NYC. As of now, if I didn't have money, I would have family to keep me afloat. As for yourself, you are a person who wants emergency rooms to be used as a place for the uninsured to be able to get health coverage (yes we should use emergency rooms to get basic medical checkups). You want to offload the needs of the uninsured on the backs of hospitals. Or, you would prefer this NOT be an option for people who don't have health insurance. Maybe these people could just die in the streets.

And there is one America. It doesn't matter whether it is "mine" or "yours". Very likely you do want two America, with a big gate to separate the two communities. One where you get yours and the rest where the people die in the streets. As I see it, there is only one America, however.

On the note of the nature of this thread, it seems to take an amazing partisan and bitter downturn whenever you add your own two cents into the mix. I had decided it would be best to discuss the facts of what was said, and not take it personal, thus the link to the AP news article. Well, you decide to make it about me. You have that choice if you like. In my case, job or no, I will still look to have the same views, at least understanding where those in need are at (I had the opportunity to spend months with them).

- Rich

[richardhutnik]

In other news, the economy might be picking up a bit. I have gotten contacted by a few more recruiters, and I have an interview Thursday with a health insurance company for an IT position (they are in Albany). I would say it is a bit of a longshot, but will see. My spinning my pro-bono work as work might be helping here.

- Rich

[richardhutnik]

guys quick question i dont know if it was asked already but WHEN DOES THE NEW HEALTHCARE SYSTEM kick in does anybody know?

Some provisions over the next few months. Some more like 4 years out, and even further like 7-8 years out. It is best to go google some of this to see the exact details. I did post a link now in this thread as a starting point.

- Rich

[BelieveTheDream]

guys quick question i dont know if it was asked already but WHEN DOES THE NEW HEALTHCARE SYSTEM kick in does anybody know?

Some provisions over the next few months. Some more like 4 years out, and even further like 7-8 years out. It is best to go google some of this to see the exact details. I did post a link now in this thread as a starting point.

- Rich

I tried googling it but can't really find anything, The one I am looking for is having Kids that are under 26 being allowed to be under there guardians Insurance, do you by any chance know when that kicks in?

[mugzi]

You have admitted to being dependent on govt for survival so why should anyone take your opinion with anything other than a grain of salt?

Big govt and entitlement healthcare is right up your alley, so spare us the semantics.

A man should be judged by his actions, and yours say 'Im gonna get as much as I can while I can.' Youve admitted that much before.

Thats your American way, not mine.

You are the one who suggested, as a way to make money, to illegally sell cigarettes outside bars in NYC. As of now, if I didn't have money, I would have family to keep me afloat. As for yourself, you are a person who wants emergency rooms to be used as a place for the uninsured to be able to get health coverage (yes we should use emergency rooms to get basic medical checkups). You want to offload the needs of the uninsured on the backs of hospitals. Or, you would prefer this NOT be an option for people who don't have health insurance. Maybe these people could just die in the streets.

And there is one America. It doesn't matter whether it is "mine" or "yours". Very likely you do want two America, with a big gate to separate the two communities. One where you get yours and the rest where the people die in the streets. As I see it, there is only one America, however.

On the note of the nature of this thread, it seems to take an amazing partisan and bitter downturn whenever you add your own two cents into the mix. I had decided it would be best to discuss the facts of what was said, and not take it personal, thus the link to the AP news article. Well, you decide to make it about me. You have that choice if you like. In my case, job or no, I will still look to have the same views, at least understanding where those in need are at (I had the opportunity to spend months with them).

- Rich

You're a hypocrtite and a liar, you try to make every single post in reply to me as a personal attack. I'll keep taking the high road and avoid getting sucked in to your drama.

My own two cents are the only thing that keeps this thread balanced, although balance in your eyes is pontificating back in forth with other liberals like Wingo. That doesnt mean this thread is balanced, it just means the two of you like hearing each other talk and thats fine, but my voice is the only thing that leads to debate on this thread, like it or not.

[magnumt]

Keep in mind guys that most Politics talk will no doubt get heated...just try not to bait someone into things one way or the other, or one-side or the other.

Continue to post articles, rebut points you disagree w/ and ignore anything else. If you can't, here's some good advice:

Take a breather of a few hours, or a Day, step away from the Thread, then comeback w/ a fresh mind and perspective.

[EDIT: Btw mugzi, check your emails mate I sent you one earlier in the Day, and please reply there. Thanks.

--Mags