Tonight is a must-lose game

[Crossova21]

Really tonight and tomorrow are must-lose. Let Price and McRoberts start and see if they'll develop. I'd much rather see a line-up of Price, Rush, Granger, McRoberts, and Hibbert start the game. IMO that team is a lot more exciting than watching Murphy and Watson start. If we lose another game we're eliminated from the playoffs so there's no real reason to win games unless the Pacers feel they can win back their fans in the last dozen games.

The teams below us know that their only way to get better is to lose. For some reason the Pacers haven't figured that out yet.

BTW Favors needs to be in an Indy uniform next year!!!!....if we don't get Wall or Turner of course.

[Gremz]

Nope. Never lose to the Pistons!!! Smack em around!

Plus, they seem more in tank mode than most atm.

[Miller4ever]

I can't technically, but I ought to lock this thread and stop this "have to lose" nonsense. The percentage that we win the lottery doesn't change by that much whether we win or lose in the next 12 games or so. I hate this tanking attitude. It's like the players we have right now are worthless to you and their development and confidence is every bit as important as getting high draft pick. If it's meant to be, it's meant to be. It's much better playing the game the way it's meant to be played because we have a lot of positives on the team right now, that just need time and development. Not saying you're not a fan, or a bad one, just saying that your logic is flawed. Teams that tank stay bad because they still lack identity and winning experience. We'll get a high pick, don't worry about it. 5 more lottery balls will statistically make very little impact on our chances of getting a top-3 pick. I like our chances already and I say that we look forward with our DEFINITELY RETURNING PLAYERS THAT ARE SICK OF LOSING.

It's unfair to want to tank. Imagine you're a player. Your fans want you to lose because they don't think you can do it on your own, they want some young upstart out of college who isn't even old enough to drink to do your job next year.

Seriously.

I get it, you guys all want to tank. It makes sense, but don't make useless threads urging our team to lose. ANOTHER thread about tanking? Every other thread already has tanking discussion. Make a good gamethread, not a tankthread. I'm sick of this ****.

[Grang33r]

I can't technically, but I ought to lock this thread and stop this "have to lose" nonsense. The percentage that we win the lottery doesn't change by that much whether we win or lose in the next 12 games or so. I hate this tanking attitude. It's like the players we have right now are worthless to you and their development and confidence is every bit as important as getting high draft pick. If it's meant to be, it's meant to be. It's much better playing the game the way it's meant to be played because we have a lot of positives on the team right now, that just need time and development. Not saying you're not a fan, or a bad one, just saying that your logic is flawed. Teams that tank stay bad because they still lack identity and winning experience. We'll get a high pick, don't worry about it. 5 more lottery balls will statistically make very little impact on our chances of getting a top-3 pick. I like our chances already and I say that we look forward with our DEFINITELY RETURNING PLAYERS THAT ARE SICK OF LOSING.

It's unfair to want to tank. Imagine you're a player. Your fans want you to lose because they don't think you can do it on your own, they want some young upstart out of college who isn't even old enough to drink to do your job next year.

Seriously.

I get it, you guys all want to tank. It makes sense, but don't make useless threads urging our team to lose. ANOTHER thread about tanking? Every other thread already has tanking discussion. Make a good gamethread, not a tankthread. I'm sick of this ****.

I honestly don't understand why people get upset over fans who want to tank? Does it make people bad fans? No at all. As for the statistics, it matters a lot. Realistically, the Pacers could finish with the 4th worst record in the league, and thus, get a 11.9% chance of winning the top prize and much higher chances of getting a top 4 pick. They could finish 8th or even 9th and have 2.8% or 1.7% chance of winning the lottery. That is a HUGE difference when you consider 13 teams are in play.

If the Pacers were a team with a rich owner and crazy community backing it, with corp dollars, i wouldn't care either. But, i am not sure if you've noticed, but the Pacers are almost on life support. Herb Simon is losing money by the buckets. He's not getting any younger. One good offer, and this team is sold.

I see us like the Pittsburgh Penguins of the NHL. They were very close to closing up shop and moving the team to Kansas City. Arena was a ghost town. Nobody cared and they all accepted the fact that one of the leagues most historic teams was a goner. Then came the Sidney Crosby draft and everything changed. People cared. Businesses cares. Local investors started caring and bought into the team and now the Pens can't lose and sell out every game. Is Evan Turner or John Wall like Crosby? Doubt it, Crosby is a special player. But, they don't have to be.

What exactly are you sick of? People starting silly threads about tanking? Not sure if you've noticed, but a once popular and active board is a ghost town just like Conseco Fieldhouse. THAT doesn't make you sick? The fact this team hasn't had a winning season since 2004/05 season is ok too? As long as they win once every few weeks to give you a smile?

I know many of you guys on this forum live and die with this team, as i used to. I don't get the package anymore because the quality of basketball is horrid. I watch several games a year, vs. NYK, vs. Nets (both are local feeds for me) and then see handful others at the bar to get my Pacers kick in. As slow as this forum is, most of the threads are about the draft. I'm sick of it too, i'm sick of the arena being empty, i'm sick that we can't defend, i sick that we can't stay healthy, i'm sick that on Christmas time we were discussing the June draft on realgm.... but, i can also realize that the next 10-12 or whatever games will not matter. I've suffered long enough, as everyone else on this forum has, that say losing 10-12 games may not mean so much. May not be so bad after all.

[Miller4ever]

Like I said, doesn't make you bad fans, I just don't agree with the logic. There's other ways to make the team better than by tanking. Also, we're not finishing 8th or 9th. The lowest percentage I see us getting is ~8%, if we try to win.

I don't have anything against the sentiment. I'm not exactly proud of the board the way it is now, or the way our team is, but I think we should have more faith in the squad we have now.

I do think tanking comes from not following the team and wanting to, so you'd like a reason to, with a shiny draft pick.

Also, if the last 10-12 games don't matter, why not win them so that the fans who still watch the Pacers can be happy, and more importantly, the team can build confidence and something to look forward to next season? I think the only reason we managed to start 5-3 this season and sucked it up the rest of the way is because we had confidence coming from last season, particularly Hibbert.

[Boneman2]

Miller4Ever your logic is honorable but if we keep winning we'll not only miss out Wall & Turner, but a lot of other potential all-stars too. What are our chances of finishing with the 8th-10th pick if we keep winning? It's not like this team matters anyway. This group of players will will no longer be a unit very soon, they are hopeless because there is no future. The players quit competing long ago, so there is no reason to salvage anything with one last hurrah. If the Spurs can tank and maintain their dignity, than so can we.

As far as locking threads and stuff, I'm not in on that one. If a thread lacks originality than we need to examine it, but sometimes people have something on their mind and they want to share it with others. It's a fine line.

[Starkiller]

I'm not saying the should go out there and miss shots on purpose or not try. but I'm saying get some younger guys a lot of PT like Price and Roy. Yeah Watson and Murphy gives us the best chance to win but who cares, we aren't going to win anything anytime soon. Let those other guys get valueable PT.

[Miller4ever]

Just to be clear, I was only saying that I wanted to lock the thread, not that I will or should.

I agree. We should be playing the young guys. I just want the players to try their best and try to win. If you don't practice that mentality in the regular season, it's harder to make it happen.

I don't think we'll keep winning. I just want to continue to support my team to THAT end, 82 games a season and hopefully son to be more.

[glasket]

Tanking and not tanking aside, there are some points I'd like to make.

Definetly start or at least give ample playing time to the young guys. AJ, Brush, McBob, Solo Jones, Granger, Big Roy should have solid minutes.

I'd love for the bball gods to smile on the Pacers and give them a top 3 or 4 draft pick, however I think this won't be the case with our current record.

Currently we have the 7th or 8th worst record and the way we are playing looks like we may be picking between 6-9 so I wouldn't be upset if we do lose a few games which we should win on paper.

[23artest23]

I don't think that we should have the mindset to purposely tank. What I do think is that our young guys such as Brandon, AJ, Josh, and Roy should be getting starter minutes to close the season. I think that way because we are obviously a rather poor team thus have no postseason ahead and if by chance we could make the postseason, I know that realistically we should be swept first round. There is no point in breaking everything out in hopes of winning these final games. What there is a point in is developing our young guys by throwing them in the fire and letting them cool down over the summer.

[celtspacers]

Come on guys the Pacers are run by idiots. They will win a few more games get the 8th pick. draft someone that everyone else thought would go a lot later. You'll be just good enough to miss the playoffs next year and get the 12 th pick. Be happy guys. your teams run by idiots and most of your fans are idiots as well. Who else would back a team of Losers.

[Boneman2]

Come on guys the Pacers are run by idiots. They will win a few more games get the 8th pick. draft someone that everyone else thought would go a lot later. You'll be just good enough to miss the playoffs next year and get the 12 th pick. Be happy guys. your teams run by idiots and most of your fans are idiots as well. Who else would back a team of Losers.

Very well thought out.

[writerman]

I don't think it qualifies as tanking to sit the veterans and let the kids play. We're not going to make the playoffs--let's develop the kids for the future. That's not tanking, it's just good sense! If the kids go on a win streak, I'll cheer them all the way regardless of how it affects our lottery status.

[Grangerous]

Just last week we had the fourth worst record in the league, giving us the 4th best chance to land the #1 pick....but a week later were back to our regular spot from the last few years as one of the first 3 teams to miss the playoffs...i guess thats what you get for winnin 4 of the last 5 games...I personally would like to see us get down to one of the top 5 worst records in the league but we'll see what happens.

[Dunthreevy]

I do think tanking comes from not following the team and wanting to, so you'd like a reason to, with a shiny draft pick.

Exactly! I'd be more than willing to bet money that a large majority of the "fans" who want to tank (or even think that tanking is acceptable) aren't PAYING fans. They most certainly probably aren't season ticket holders, and more than likely the main thing they look at are the box scores and highlights. Any REAL fan of a sports team will never advocate losing games intentionally. I'll root for a team that busts their asses and comes up short, but I'll never root for a team that doesn't give a damn about their performance and have no pride in the franchise that they represent.

[mizzoupacers]

Both sides are right here. No fan wants to see his team suck on purpose. Yet it does make a difference in terms of acquiring future talent. The Pacers' odds are not very good of winning a top-three pick in the lottery, whether they finish with the fifth-worst record or the tenth-worst. But after the inevitable failure to have a lucky Ping Pong ball, wouldn't you rather have the fifth or sixth pick than the tenth? THAT''S the critical difference at stake here. You're simply much more likely to get a franchise player at #5 than you are at #10.

And the Pacers need a franchise player soooo bad...that's why I'm holding my nose and hoping for a lot of losses down the stretch.

[Dunthreevy]

Both sides are right here. No fan wants to see his team suck on purpose. Yet it does make a difference in terms of acquiring future talent. The Pacers' odds are not very good of winning a top-three pick in the lottery, whether they finish with the fifth-worst record or the tenth-worst. But after the inevitable failure to have a lucky Ping Pong ball, wouldn't you rather have the fifth or sixth pick than the tenth? THAT''S the critical difference at stake here. You're simply much more likely to get a franchise player at #5 than you are at #10.

And the Pacers need a franchise player soooo bad...that's why I'm holding my nose and hoping for a lot of losses down the stretch.

Since 1998...

1998) 5th-Vince Carter
10th-Paul Pierce
1999) 5th-Jonathan Bender
10th-Jason Terry
2000) 5th-Mike Miller
10th-Keyon Dooling
2001) 5th-Jason Richardson
10th- Joe Johnson
2002) 5th-Nikoloz Tskitishvili
10th - Caron Butler
2003) 5th-Dwayne Wade
10th-Jarvis Hayes
2004) 5th-Devin Harris
10th-Luke Jackson
2005) 5th-Raymond Felton
10th-Andrew Bynum
2006) 5th-Shelden Williams
10th-Saer Sene
2007) 5th-Jeff Green
10th-Spencer Hawes
2008) 5th-Kevin Love
10th-Brook Lopez
2009) 5th-Ricky Rubio
10th-Brandon Jennings

If you're picking in the top 10, it's a crap shoot. You've got just as good a chance at landing a star with the 10th pick as you do with 5th, and the facts back that up.

[Crossova21]

Dunthreevy u can root for them...I will too...but in order to get fans back in the seats you need somebody that'll sell tickets and those players come early in the draft. In case u haven't noticed the only time we sell out is at Lakers games and most of the crowd chants MVP when Kobe goes to the line.

The Brawl happened almost 6 years ago and we're still suffering. I understand that the team wasn't going to get fixed overnight but we should at least have something to look foward to in the future. The way I see it with the 8th pick this year we'll be right back in the same spot next year. 2011 we're supposed to have a bunch of money but we'll probably overpay for Mike Conley. Man I wish we had Walsh back.

Organization's losing money and if we don't get an impact player soon we'll be looking at the Pacers calling somewhere else home.

[Dunthreevy]

Dunthreevy u can root for them...I will too...but in order to get fans back in the seats you need somebody that'll sell tickets and those players come early in the draft. In case u haven't noticed the only time we sell out is at Lakers games and most of the crowd chants MVP when Kobe goes to the line.

The Brawl happened almost 6 years ago and we're still suffering. I understand that the team wasn't going to get fixed overnight but we should at least have something to look foward to in the future. The way I see it with the 8th pick this year we'll be right back in the same spot next year. 2011 we're supposed to have a bunch of money but we'll probably overpay for Mike Conley. Man I wish we had Walsh back.

Organization's losing money and if we don't get an impact player soon we'll be looking at the Pacers calling somewhere else home.

Trust me I have noticed. I'm at every home game. Every team doesn't need to have a #1 pick to build itself back to prominence. We're building in the right direction and the sales team for the Pacers is doing a great job in regards to coming up with creative ways to sell tickets lately. With wins come the fans. All it will take is for the Pacers to get that 8th seed in the East (not saying that will happen this season) and the fans will start pouring right back into Conseco. Indiana LOVES basketball and is really just looking for a reason to support again. We don't need a superstar for the fans to come back, what we need are wins and some hope that more will come in the future. Sure it would be great to land John Wall, or even Evan Turner, but the reality of it is the ONLY player in this draft that is going to really bring in a substantial amount of ticket buying fans is Wall. There's not enough tanking that we can do that will get us close to NJ right now. And we all have to remember, it's a LOTTERY. Look at the history...

2000 New Jersey Nets 31–52 (7th-worst)
2001 Washington Wizards 19–63 (3rd-worst)
2002 Houston Rockets 28–54 (5th-worst)
2003 Cleveland Cavaliers 17–65 (Worst)
2004 Orlando Magic 21–61 (Worst)
2005 Milwaukee Bucks 30–52 (6th-worst)
2006 Toronto Raptors 27–55 (5th-worst)
2007 Portland Trail Blazers 32–50 (6th-worst)
2008 Chicago Bulls 33–49 (9th-worst)
2009 Los Angeles Clippers 19–63 (2nd-worst)

I'm fine with us finishing out the season decent. A losing team breeds loser players, the more wins we can rack up, the better it will be for our young players in the future. We're going to get a good pick in the draft, it's just a matter of being patient and showing support. A team with no fan support does suck and it's going to kill them financially in the long run, but in the short term it's even worse because as soon as our players are free agents they're going to bolt on us if we all sit around and bitch about how worthless they are and how much we want them to lose.

[MNPacersfan]

I keep wondering why the NBA hasn't tiered the lottery odds to at least slow the tanking. SOmething like:

Teams 30, 29, 28 and 27 - 15% each (60% total)
Teams 26-22 - 6% each (30% total)
Teams 21-17 - 2% each (10% total)

Losing to drop down a tier wouldn't be as appetizing unless you were on the lip of moving from 6% to 15% (and it would be pretty obvious). Is there anyone from the competition committee on this thread?

They could do the lottery live this way as well. With just 50 balls needed...