Has Kobe surpassed Hakeem?

[LarsV8]

You are quickly becoming one of my favourite posters on this board. The Lebron-Wade analogy is perfect for the Robinson-Hakeem situation. If Wade goes on to win one more ring, and Lebron ends up winning none, should Wade be ranked 10 spots higher than Lebron. Lebron is clearly the better player, just like Robinson was clearly better than Hakeem - at least until Hakeem won the 2nd ring.
.

Um....

[pancakes3]

A peak of 25-29ppg, 10-12rpg, 3bpg, .58 TS% and 10 FTA a game getting opposing bigs in foul trouble, while spreading the floor for penetrations + DPOY interior d, and one of the all time "great guys". Where would that guy rank? Ahead of Magic and Bird for "big over small + INTERIOR D > ALL" reasons? I think so. Does he challenge top 2-3 of all time like Kareem?

I do agree with the general gist of your post, that the differences between players 8-18 is pretty small, but when describing Drob with 3 rings, i couldn't help but think - SHAQ SHAQ SHAQ SHAQ SHAQ SHAQ SHAQ! he doesn't have a DPOY (losing out to 'Zo, Deke, and Ben Wallace isn't too damning) but he has better scoring numbers and 4 rings, and imo he's not going to supplant anyone in the immortal 6 even if he does win a 5th ring with Lebron.

[Volcano]

oh good lord no!

Kobe is not even better than KG or Wade

Was that sarcastic?

I have Kobe over Wade, definitely. Based on play, I'd take KG over Kobe, but based on career..Kobe over KG. KG was just unlucky to play on crap teams with the Wolves.

[writerman]

No. No wing player, however good, is as valuable as a top-quality big. I'm definitely no Hakeem fan, and believe and have stated often he's overrated here. But despite all the phony rules they have instituted over the years deliberately designed to favor wing players, no wing/perimeter player can contribute as many things to the success of a team as a quality big. Basketball is a vertical game.

[semi-sentient]

^^^ Kobe was a pretty dominant two-way player even before they started heavily enforcing the "no touch" policy on perimeter players (and this primarily helps guys who slash a lot anyway), so that doesn't really apply to him as much as it does others.

[Doctor MJ]

^^^ Kobe was a pretty dominant two-way player even before they started heavily enforcing the "no touch" policy on perimeter players (and this primarily helps guys who slash a lot anyway), so that doesn't really apply to him as much as it does others.

I'm guessing that when Warspite sees this we will see a post of vehement disagreement.

I am not someone who thinks big are inherently more valuable, and I don't have a problem with picking Kobe in this comparison, but the gap between Hakeem and Kobe on defense has always been massive. I think you could make a solid case that Kobe's impact is closer to an average guard than it is to Hakeem's.

[juice4080]

david robinson is the most UR player ever...he has a higher peak PER than shaq best season and if kobe gets credits for 4 rings when shaq was clearly the man for 3 of them then how come robinson doesn't get credits for his 2 as tim duncan sidekick

[microfib4thewin]

You are quickly becoming one of my favourite posters on this board. The Lebron-Wade analogy is perfect for the Robinson-Hakeem situation. If Wade goes on to win one more ring, and Lebron ends up winning none, should Wade be ranked 10 spots higher than Lebron. Lebron is clearly the better player, just like Robinson was clearly better than Hakeem - at least until Hakeem won the 2nd ring.
.

Um....

Robinson was considered a better player at that time. It wasn't that Hakeem was second tier by any means, but the Admiral had always performed extremely well in the regular season whereas the same cannot be said for Hakeem. The 95 series was the event that sealed the deal. No one in 93 would say Hakeem was a better player when he's had consecutive 1st round knockouts, and only after 94 did people put Hakeem in the same conversation as the other great bigs.

[Yangsing]

Hakeem at the moment. If Kobe wins another ring then he will be above Hakeem.

[An Unbiased Fan]

david robinson is the most UR player ever...he has a higher peak PER than shaq best season and if kobe gets credits for 4 rings when shaq was clearly the man for 3 of them then how come robinson doesn't get credits for his 2 as tim duncan sidekick

There was no "man" on that team. It was 2 stars and roleplayers.

[bastillon]

^^^ Kobe was a pretty dominant two-way player even before they started heavily enforcing the "no touch" policy on perimeter players (and this primarily helps guys who slash a lot anyway), so that doesn't really apply to him as much as it does others.

I haven't seen any evidence for that. Kobe struggled defensively in his prime against Penny, Reggie and Iverson. he didn't stop any of them and they performed better in that series than usually. I don't think Kobe was ever a dominant two-way player, not even close actually. he was slightly above average mostly.

[juice4080]

david robinson is the most UR player ever...he has a higher peak PER than shaq best season and if kobe gets credits for 4 rings when shaq was clearly the man for 3 of them then how come robinson doesn't get credits for his 2 as tim duncan sidekick

There was no "man" on that team. It was 2 stars and roleplayers.

Are you trying to imply that Kobe was on par with Shaq during the 3peat....It was CLEARLY Shaq's team no matter how much you love kobe...You can't be this blind?

[An Unbiased Fan]

^^^ Kobe was a pretty dominant two-way player even before they started heavily enforcing the "no touch" policy on perimeter players (and this primarily helps guys who slash a lot anyway), so that doesn't really apply to him as much as it does others.

I haven't seen any evidence for that. Kobe struggled defensively in his prime against Penny, Reggie and Iverson. he didn't stop any of them and they performed better in that series than usually. I don't think Kobe was ever a dominant two-way player, not even close actually. he was slightly above average mostly.

1) Kobe guarded Kidd not Penny
2) Kobe got hurt in that series against Reggie so he wasn't as effective defensely
3) Iverson shot 40.7% FG

[An Unbiased Fan]

david robinson is the most UR player ever...he has a higher peak PER than shaq best season and if kobe gets credits for 4 rings when shaq was clearly the man for 3 of them then how come robinson doesn't get credits for his 2 as tim duncan sidekick

There was no "man" on that team. It was 2 stars and roleplayers.

Are you trying to imply that Kobe was on par with Shaq during the 3peat....It was CLEARLY Shaq's team no matter how much you love kobe...You can't be this blind?

No, it was clearly a 2 man team, and every one called them that back then. Kobe was the goto guy, facilitator, primary defender, and still dropping big scoring numbers.

They were like Magic/Kareem, not MJ/Pippen

[mademan]

^^^ Kobe was a pretty dominant two-way player even before they started heavily enforcing the "no touch" policy on perimeter players (and this primarily helps guys who slash a lot anyway), so that doesn't really apply to him as much as it does others.

I haven't seen any evidence for that. Kobe struggled defensively in his prime against Penny, Reggie and Iverson. he didn't stop any of them and they performed better in that series than usually. I don't think Kobe was ever a dominant two-way player, not even close actually. he was slightly above average mostly.

what kind of revisionist history is this? Hakeems D dwarfs Kobe's, yes, Hakeem is one of the GOAT defensive players. But to say Kobe was anything but elite defensively in his athletic prime years is downright nonsensical.

[juice4080]

Shaq 3 Finals MVP beg to differ but i won't even try to make you change your mind...logic and common sense won't work with kobe fan

[mademan]

Shaq 3 Finals MVP beg to differ but i won't even try to make you change your mind...logic and common sense won't work with kobe fan

I don't totally agree with him, but some of what he says is true. Kobe played like a first option superstar in the last 2 championship runs during the 3peat yet some credit him like pippen. He wasn't as dominant as Shaq and doesn't deserve as much credit as him but to say "Well, he has 1 real championship cause the others were as second options" doesn't do justice to what he did for that lakers team.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Shaq 3 Finals MVP beg to differ but i won't even try to make you change your mind...logic and common sense won't work with kobe fan

The MVP can only go to 1 player, and the Finals was almost always the weakest series the Lakers had those years. If the playoffs was based on record and not conference, then LA would have faced the Blazers, Spurs, and Kings in the Finals, and those Finals MVPs would look different.

[bastillon]

what kind of revisionist history is this? Hakeems D dwarfs Kobe's, yes, Hakeem is one of the GOAT defensive players. But to say Kobe was anything but elite defensively in his athletic prime years is downright nonsensical.

once you show me any star player that he contained/stopped/limited/did anything to affect his production during a course of the playoff series... then I'll believe.

[semi-sentient]

^^^ Kobe was a pretty dominant two-way player even before they started heavily enforcing the "no touch" policy on perimeter players (and this primarily helps guys who slash a lot anyway), so that doesn't really apply to him as much as it does others.

I haven't seen any evidence for that. Kobe struggled defensively in his prime against Penny, Reggie and Iverson. he didn't stop any of them and they performed better in that series than usually. I don't think Kobe was ever a dominant two-way player, not even close actually. he was slightly above average mostly.

1) Kobe guarded Kidd not Penny
2) Kobe got hurt in that series against Reggie so he wasn't as effective defensely
3) Iverson shot 40.7% FG

Not only did Iverson shoot a poor percentage, but Fisher was the primary guy guarding him throughout the series. Kobe guarded Iverson in the 1st half of game one in that Finals series and his shooting percentage was around 37% (but he scored 16 points!) while he was guarding him. I really have no idea why people keep suggesting that Kobe struggled against him. That's blatantly ignoring facts.

Kobe definitely doesn't impact the game the way Hakeen does, but to suggest that he didn't play elite perimeter defense during the 3-peat is serious revisionist history from those who didn't bother to watch any of those games.