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The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here..

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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#261 » by seren » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:45 am

cgf wrote:I would like some examples of natural monopolies that were able to last on their own? Let's talk about these monopolies that are responsible for these exorbitant prices. I'm going to start by focusing on big pharma since that is the field I know the most about, know the most people in and understand best. The industry spends between 1-5 billion dollars per drug that gets introduced every year, depending on who's numbers you're using. What it would cost to actually develop a drug would be closer to 10 million, another 10 to test it to satisfaction so a total of 20 million ish with no FDA approval, just a safe enough drug that you'd give it to a friend with a terminal illness. That's a thousand times less than what companies actually pay. While the loss due to bureaucracy that big pharma incurs plays a part in that the major difference is the cost of the FDA.

Why is the FDA so costly? Well first of all their procedures are remarkably costly in and of themselves, but also they result in so many delays for the most moronic possible reasons. What happened to a company that the lab I was with was working with was that their drug was at the human testing stage and in one of the studies they suddenly got a weird side effect, namely that one patient had experienced a peculiar discoloration around her breasts. If you saw the pictures this discoloration just so happened to look exactly some grabbed her breasts but because this woman refused to admit that they had to wait another 3 months for more costly testing to go down and for the drug to move on. That's just one story of simply pointless delays that end up costing the people who will need this drug.

Now the completely legit question is that if there were no FDA to incur these costs why wouldn't companies just skip the testing and pocket the 10 million they'd have to shell out to do that testing? Well first of all releasing an unhealthy drug will not only lead to lawsuits, but will give you a **** reputation and thus hurting your sales. You'd also have a much harder time convincing people that they need your drug if people knew that you released one unsafe drug.

Additionally this would create an industry of experts who would review these drugs. Which would have great control over sales which would force the drug companies to gather enough evidence that their drug is safe and would also create a whole new series of jobs.

I've gotta get to work so I'm going to wrap here and hope yall have as much fun with this theoretical discussion.


I don't know where you get the 5 billion dollar number. The most cited paper puts the average cost at 800 million (even after amortizing cost of failed drugs) while a never study gets 1 billion.

Here is the link:
http://healthcare-economist.com/2010/02 ... 1-billion/

I am not sure where you get those 10 million plus 10 million numbers though. I think you are overly simplifying things.

I am also not sure about your what if there was no FDA story. What does a safe enough drug mean? Even with FDA, we get into trouble. Remember Vioxx?

Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib

"In the year before withdrawal, Merck had sales revenue of US$2.5 billion from Vioxx".

The company that produced the drug that recently merged with another one in a 41 billion dollar deal. Still in business. Making great money while many people lost their lives to the drug. So I do not buy your reputation, let the market and reputation dictate approach. We are talking about actual lives here.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#262 » by seren » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:50 am

cgf wrote:The system is broken, because of intervention, it's broken because of regulation on medical training, because of patents and subsidies, not because there isn't enough government involvement.


Any evidence to back up this claim? Can you give me any good example in the whole wide world that the health care system works great without any government intervention?

We are not talking about restaurant business or movies or clothing here. This is an industry where you have absolute imperfect information.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#263 » by orangeblobman » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:17 pm

the drug companies don't care about your health
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#264 » by HarthorneWingo » Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:42 am

orangeblobman wrote:the drug companies don't care about your health


Neither do the insurance companies.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#265 » by richardhutnik » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:23 pm

HawthorneWingo wrote:
orangeblobman wrote:the drug companies don't care about your health


Neither do the insurance companies.


Drug companies want their drugs to become a wonder drug and people buy it and feel it is needed. They don't care about you doing preventive care at all. It isn't even on their radar, unless they are doing PR because it hurts their sales. Insurance companies don't want to pay, so they do have interest in you being healthy so they don't have to pay.

Anyhow, any company that is for-profit has a far greater interest in having "good" customers than serving everyone. A basic business principle is to fire bad customers that hinder you from optimizing profits. If a customer demands too much attention, and consumes too much resources, you want to offload them on someone else. Of course, if they pay you premium, then you care. Otherwise, you don't want to give them the time of day.

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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#266 » by mugzi » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:25 pm

Ron Paul on the healthcare bill.

Healthcare and Economic Realities (Ron Paul)
U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, 14th District ^ | 2010-03-29
Posted on Mon Mar 29 2010 14:36:19 GMT-0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) by rabscuttle385

With passage of last week’s bill, the American people are now the unhappy recipients of Washington’s disastrous prescription for healthcare “reform.” Congressional leaders relied on highly dubious budget predictions, faulty market assumptions, and outright fantasy to convince a slim majority that this major expansion of government somehow will reduce federal spending. This legislation is just the next step towards universal, single payer healthcare, which many see as a human right. Of course, this “right” must be produced by the labor of other people, meaning theft and coercion by government is necessary to produce and distribute it.

Those who understand Austrian economic theory know that this new model of healthcare will cause major problems down the road, as it has in every nation that ignores economic realities. The more government involves itself in medicine, the worse healthcare will get: quality of care will diminish as the system struggles to contain rising costs, while shortages and long waiting times for treatment will become more and more commonplace.

Consider what would happen if car insurance worked the way health insurance does. What if it was determined that gasoline was a right, and should be covered by your car insurance policy? Perhaps every gas station would have to hire a small army of bureaucrats to file reimbursement claims to insurance companies for every tank of gas sold! What would that kind of system do to the costs of running a gas station? How would that affect the prices of both gasoline and car insurance? Yet this is exactly the type of system Congress is now expanding in health insurance. In a free market system, health insurance would serve as true insurance against serious injuries or illness, not as a convoluted system of third party payments for routine doctor visits and every minor illness.

While proponents of this reform continue to defy all logic and reason by claiming it will save money, I worry about cataclysmic economic events. Already investors are more reluctant to buy US Treasuries, fearing that the healthcare bill, along with other spending, will cause government debt to explode to default levels. I had the opportunity last week to address my concerns with both Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, especially about the potential for the coming serious inflation. I am not optimistic that these important decision makers truly understand what is coming, why it is coming, and how best to deal with it.

The Federal Reserve finds itself in an unprecedented and unenviable position. To keep up with government spending and corporate irresponsibility, it has increased the monetary base by nearly $1.5 trillion since September of 2008. Excess bank reserves remain at historically high levels, and the Fed's balance sheet has ballooned to over $2 trillion. If the Fed pulls this excess liquidity out of the system, it risks collapsing banks that rely on the newly created money. However, if the Fed fails to pull this excess liquidity out of the system we risk tipping into hyperinflation. This is where central banking inevitably has led us.

The idea that a handful of brilliant minds can somehow steer an economy is fatal to economic growth and stability. The Soviet Union's economy failed because of its central economic planning, and the U.S. economy will suffer the same fate if we continue down the path toward more centralized control. We need to bring back sound money and free markets- yes, even in healthcare- if we hope to soften the economic blows coming our way.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#267 » by richardhutnik » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:25 am

Ron Paul on the "War on Terror"
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZmPS0XmeBw[/youtube]

Ron Paul on ending the war on drugs:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvFYCky0muY[/youtube]

Ron Paul on blowback:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD7dnFDdwu0[/youtube]

Ron Paul opposition against enhanced interrogation techniques (waterboarding included):
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_el0ydS1b_A[/youtube]

Ron Paul considering the CIA as a source of evil, doing bad things:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dECSYm5bSM[/youtube]

Ron Paul saying U.S embargo against Iraq was a cause of terrorism:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YbW-Ru_BoM[/youtube]

Nice to know Mugzi believes that Ron Paul is a source of authority. Wait, Mugzi only considers an authority in areas that he agrees with. Either that, or he feels that arguing with me is SO important that he needs to bring up Ron Paul. More important to win an argument than it is to have integrity in one's views I guess.

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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#268 » by mugzi » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:13 am

If I wanted to direct a statement towards you Id of named you like I always do. Your sense of self importance is pretty obnoxious Dicky.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#269 » by richardhutnik » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:45 am

mugzi wrote:If I wanted to direct a statement towards you Id of named you like I always do. Your sense of self importance is pretty obnoxious Dicky.


Feel free to put up a survey to see which is more obnoxous: either my sense of self-importance or your bile political opinions and a total lack of concern for those in need.

As for what I wrote, it covers the entire gambit of why you would quote Ron Paul.

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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#270 » by mugzi » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:03 am

And who would vote on this survey you and Wingo? :lol:

So according to you any viewpoint that has conservative undertones is bile? Good to know, way to keep it civil Dick, er I mean Richard. I guess its easier to level accusations at someone then debate civilly.

Every comment that comes from you is self serving and aggrandizing, your whole strategy here is to deflect and obfuscate.

Ron Paul doesnt get everything right, but he's usually spot on when it comes to fiscal responsibility, or in the case of this healthcare bill fiscal irresponsibility. Maybe you're perturbed because the man has differing views from you on this bill, I dont know.

You can keep huffing and puffing but you'll never blow my house down Dicky, you just keep grasping at straws all the while exposing yourself for the liberal I always claimed you to be.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#271 » by be reasonable » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:37 am

richardhutnik wrote:Ron Paul on the "War on Terror"
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZmPS0XmeBw[/youtube]

Ron Paul on ending the war on drugs:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvFYCky0muY[/youtube]

Ron Paul on blowback:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD7dnFDdwu0[/youtube]

Ron Paul opposition against enhanced interrogation techniques (waterboarding included):
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_el0ydS1b_A[/youtube]

Ron Paul considering the CIA as a source of evil, doing bad things:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dECSYm5bSM[/youtube]

Ron Paul saying U.S embargo against Iraq was a cause of terrorism:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YbW-Ru_BoM[/youtube]

Nice to know Mugzi believes that Ron Paul is a source of authority. Wait, Mugzi only considers an authority in areas that he agrees with. Either that, or he feels that arguing with me is SO important that he needs to bring up Ron Paul. More important to win an argument than it is to have integrity in one's views I guess.

- Rich

how did this guy not win the presidency? :dontknow: oh well what could have been.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#272 » by richardhutnik » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:10 am

be reasonable wrote:

Nice to know Mugzi believes that Ron Paul is a source of authority. Wait, Mugzi only considers an authority in areas that he agrees with. Either that, or he feels that arguing with me is SO important that he needs to bring up Ron Paul. More important to win an argument than it is to have integrity in one's views I guess.

- Rich

how did this guy not win the presidency? :dontknow: oh well what could have been.


He is too Libertarian for the conservatives in the GOP, too pre-Reagan Republican for the Neocons, too fiscally conservative for liberals (and also too much against regulation of big business). He played to the wings, which means that he can't get the middle. He scares too many people.

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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#273 » by richardhutnik » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:21 am

Go ahead and put a survey up on here Mugzi. Everyone can vote on it. I don't care. What I do know is this thread is generally civil when you don't post in it. The moment you do post in here, then people counter what you have to say, and you go into a name-calling hissy fit over this or that. The reality is that you can't handle people countering you. And the Bile has to do with a tone of a conversation going into someone being evil, rather than just wrong. There is conservatism that doesn't do that. Such is an intellectual form, not the populist Fox News type. Your colors show time and time again, particularly the time when you changed Gandhi to Al Capone, because you couldn't stand being called on your hostile attitude you manifested on here. The level of discourse spirals downward when this happens. That doesn't happen when cgw posts on here, and people disagree. It is only when you do.

Again, I stand by this: Exactly how much concern do you personally have for those in need? Exactly how much money and time have you given to aid and assist the poor? Any? I would say likely NONE. You know why? You partly believe they are how they are because it is their fault. And if you did anything to help, you would only be rewarding their own bad behavior. You would only do anything for anyone also, if it served you. That is your story Mugzi. Go ahead and prove otherwise. Oh, you give people an "Oh sorry man for your problem (Be warm and be fed)" but that is only because people are seeing you post here. When I happened to of been in that shelter environment, I happened to end up helping a bunch of people, buying them things and offering them rides. So, you can not ask me anything, but ask you. And it is important you answer, because unless you can show you do help about the poor, then your opinion that the welfare state should be dismantled will end up resulting in no one helping the poor, if they act like you do. In light of that, then you do show you have no concern for those in need.

Oh wait, you can't do this. Because this is supposedly "Liberal". And of course, not only is Liberal wrong in your mind, but it is EVIL. So, thus you can't do something that because it is LIBERAL. Oh nevermind it is Christian or not, it is EVIL, because it is Liberal.

Anyhow, carry on. For you, this is obviously an ego-stroking game, where you think you score some points here and there. WOW, you get to be supposedly "right" in a BASKETBALL forum discussing POLITICS. Give yourself a nice pat on your back for that Mugzi. I guess it counts for something. Who knows what though. It is likely of less value than Medals you win playing Game Room over XBox. It is a sad state when you commit yourself to showing myself as a "liberal", whether it be true or not.

By the way, exactly WHAT house is this that is supposed to be blown down? The one where we all know you are a partisan Republican who has views in lockstep with what Fox News has, eventhough you don't watch it? It is one in which you will use Ron Paul for your own purposes, and not understand that his small government goes into ALL areas, not just the ones you like. You know, the one where America can't be fighting wars, because it increases the size of government and decreases personal liberties as a result? No, you just want to agree with him on budget issues, when the War in Iraq doesn't count, nor does the drug war nor does the War on "Terror". He is wrong on these of course. But, of course he is right in wanting there to be no semblance of welfare for anyone at all. Why? Well, because by golly we really have to see who the losers in life REALLY are. Let them suffer, and go to the edge of starvation, because that will motivate them to at least pick up bottles on the side of the road, so they can buy themselves their regular buck cheeseburger at McDonalds, and some bandages (they do need some health care).

- Rich


mugzi wrote:And who would vote on this survey you and Wingo? :lol:

So according to you any viewpoint that has conservative undertones is bile? Good to know, way to keep it civil Dick, er I mean Richard. I guess its easier to level accusations at someone then debate civilly.

Every comment that comes from you is self serving and aggrandizing, your whole strategy here is to deflect and obfuscate.

Ron Paul doesnt get everything right, but he's usually spot on when it comes to fiscal responsibility, or in the case of this healthcare bill fiscal irresponsibility. Maybe you're perturbed because the man has differing views from you on this bill, I dont know.

You can keep huffing and puffing but you'll never blow my house down Dicky, you just keep grasping at straws all the while exposing yourself for the liberal I always claimed you to be.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#274 » by be reasonable » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:29 am

HawthorneWingo wrote:Putting healthcare aside for the moment, I find what's going on with Israel, East Jerusalem and the Brits very interesting. As far as I'm concerned, Israel needs to STFU and start doing what we tell it to do or we can start calling in loans; withholding the $30 billion a year we give them; withhold our veto of U.N. resolutions to compel Israel to disclose its nuclear arsenal; etc. If they want to go it alone, let them. Europe has had enough. Turkey has had enough. And I've had enough. The tail does not wag the dog.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1158641.html

Last update - 06:30 24/03/2010
Britain has dealt a blow to Israeli arrogance
By Amir Oren


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1158599.html

How can so many Israelis back the construction freeze?
By Yehuda Ben Meir


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/2 ... 10838.html (scroll down to comments section)


blasphemy :lol: stone him! :curse: stone him! :curse: :lol: :lol: :lol: unfortunatley in this case the tail does wag the dog :sigh:
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#275 » by seren » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:08 pm

mugzi wrote:Ron Paul on the healthcare bill.

Healthcare and Economic Realities (Ron Paul)
U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, 14th District ^ | 2010-03-29
Posted on Mon Mar 29 2010 14:36:19 GMT-0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) by rabscuttle385

With passage of last week’s bill, the American people are now the unhappy recipients of Washington’s disastrous prescription for healthcare “reform.” Congressional leaders relied on highly dubious budget predictions, faulty market assumptions, and outright fantasy to convince a slim majority that this major expansion of government somehow will reduce federal spending. This legislation is just the next step towards universal, single payer healthcare, which many see as a human right. Of course, this “right” must be produced by the labor of other people, meaning theft and coercion by government is necessary to produce and distribute it.

Those who understand Austrian economic theory know that this new model of healthcare will cause major problems down the road, as it has in every nation that ignores economic realities. The more government involves itself in medicine, the worse healthcare will get: quality of care will diminish as the system struggles to contain rising costs, while shortages and long waiting times for treatment will become more and more commonplace.

Consider what would happen if car insurance worked the way health insurance does. What if it was determined that gasoline was a right, and should be covered by your car insurance policy? Perhaps every gas station would have to hire a small army of bureaucrats to file reimbursement claims to insurance companies for every tank of gas sold! What would that kind of system do to the costs of running a gas station? How would that affect the prices of both gasoline and car insurance? Yet this is exactly the type of system Congress is now expanding in health insurance. In a free market system, health insurance would serve as true insurance against serious injuries or illness, not as a convoluted system of third party payments for routine doctor visits and every minor illness.

While proponents of this reform continue to defy all logic and reason by claiming it will save money, I worry about cataclysmic economic events. Already investors are more reluctant to buy US Treasuries, fearing that the healthcare bill, along with other spending, will cause government debt to explode to default levels. I had the opportunity last week to address my concerns with both Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, especially about the potential for the coming serious inflation. I am not optimistic that these important decision makers truly understand what is coming, why it is coming, and how best to deal with it.

The Federal Reserve finds itself in an unprecedented and unenviable position. To keep up with government spending and corporate irresponsibility, it has increased the monetary base by nearly $1.5 trillion since September of 2008. Excess bank reserves remain at historically high levels, and the Fed's balance sheet has ballooned to over $2 trillion. If the Fed pulls this excess liquidity out of the system, it risks collapsing banks that rely on the newly created money. However, if the Fed fails to pull this excess liquidity out of the system we risk tipping into hyperinflation. This is where central banking inevitably has led us.

The idea that a handful of brilliant minds can somehow steer an economy is fatal to economic growth and stability. The Soviet Union's economy failed because of its central economic planning, and the U.S. economy will suffer the same fate if we continue down the path toward more centralized control. We need to bring back sound money and free markets- yes, even in healthcare- if we hope to soften the economic blows coming our way.


:lol: :lol:

Way to compare car insurance with health care. Yes, I guess humans are just like cars. You purchase them new. Put some mileage on it. Trade in when it gets boring.

And way to bring Soviet Union into discussion when you have almost entire West having either a single-payer system or insurance mandate. I guess UK, Canada, Germany, France, Sweden and almost all European Union are nothing but Soviet Union clones.
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Post#276 » by seren » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:15 pm

The problem with the whole health care discussion is that the GOP is not sincere in the whole discussion.

Current legislation is just Romneycare go federal yet the guy acts like he knows nothing about it.

A guy like Ron Paul, who I usually have some respect, brings Soviet Union into discussion at a time when the whole wide Western World, with the exception of US, have some type of a universal care running for a long time.

Colbert had a nice piece on it, the Republican talking point bingo. Theirs is just bunch of sound bites with no coherent objections whatsoever with what is actually going on.

I used to respect McCain, looked like a guy of conscience to me, but even he went wild when put in the corner.

At this point, Republicans look like a bunch of naysayers, have little care about the country but their seats, and have nothing to take this country forward.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#277 » by seren » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:37 pm

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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#278 » by richardhutnik » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:00 pm

seren wrote:Colbert had a nice piece on it, the Republican talking point bingo. Theirs is just bunch of sound bites with no coherent objections whatsoever with what is actually going on.


Is this the episode with the Talking Point Bingo?
http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episo ... d_facebook

In that a priest talks about helping the poor, in the first part. Gee, I happened to mention this in a recent prior post.

- Rich
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#279 » by seren » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:08 pm

richardhutnik wrote:
seren wrote:Colbert had a nice piece on it, the Republican talking point bingo. Theirs is just bunch of sound bites with no coherent objections whatsoever with what is actually going on.


Is this the episode with the Talking Point Bingo?
http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episo ... d_facebook

In that a priest talks about helping the poor, in the first part. Gee, I happened to mention this in a recent prior post.

- Rich


Yeah, that is the one. Sorry I missed your post. The whole episode was pretty good.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#280 » by richardhutnik » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:09 pm

seren wrote:Way to compare car insurance with health care. Yes, I guess humans are just like cars. You purchase them new. Put some mileage on it. Trade in when it gets boring.

And way to bring Soviet Union into discussion when you have almost entire West having either a single-payer system or insurance mandate. I guess UK, Canada, Germany, France, Sweden and almost all European Union are nothing but Soviet Union clones.


Maybe muzgi is in favor of a world like the one in the movie Repo Men:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1053424/plotsummary

It is a world of completely privately run health care. You make monthly payments on your artificial organs. In the event you fall too far beyond, the Repo Men come in and repossess your organs, to sell to someone else. In this process, you will likely die, but hey, you should of paid your bills like any responsible person does. You would of died anyhow without the organ, so be thankful that you happened to get that little bit of life left. You should actually THANK the organ supplier for that prolonged extension of life, particularly as you lay on the ground dying.

- Rich
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - G. Marx

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