The Amazingly Sucky Flip Saunders Thread

[hands11]

I'm not a huge fan of Flip but at least I like what I am reading if he is a part of us rebuilding.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02673.html

The Wizards are also guaranteed a high lottery pick and two large trade exceptions worth $6 million and $4.5 million, which could bring in more pieces. "You're in a situation where we have so many options, from a standpoint of the draft, free agency," Coach Flip Saunders said. "Everyone has to be on the same page, as far as the personality of the players, the intelligence of players, and how those players are going to fit in, in order to build for a championship."

- Personality ( ie maturity )
- Intelligence ( BB IQ and maturity )
- How they fit in - two way players to start and roll players off the bench

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm a Pistons fan and let me tell you Flip is a liar. He regularly said things that were flat out untrue and designed to placate people on his back. His coaching tactics themselves sometimes get a bad rap, but in a he said she said dispute (the she being Flip) between coach and player I believe the player.

At another point, we had two SFs on our team, Mo Evans and Carlos Delfino. Neither are great players. But Delfino occasionally showed flashes of greatness, hustle, and D in very limited minutes. Mo Evans sucked consistently and was a black hole on defense. None of us could figure out why Evans was getting the minutes while Delfino got DNPs. Flip would consistently insist Delfino would be getting minutes in upcoming games, but didn't. Eventually he'd play Delfino 3 minutes or something, Delfino wouldn't do anything amazing and we'd be back to 10 minutes of Evans suckiness... okay no biggie.

Later, there was a local Detroit report that Mo Evans had gained some heat from the rest of the team as a snitch for Flip. In other words he would basically run back and report to Flip who was saying what about him. Gee I wonder where his minutes came from?

Frankly, Da-Met, without you posting this I'd come to the conclusion Flip has to have someone--a young player--in his doghouse. He strikes me as a guy who doesn't care about his players, save for the ones that suck up to him. I believe Blatche over Flip Saunders any day of the week because Saunders really appears to be the type dude that wants to impress those over him.

What I have liked least about Flip is he plays favorites. It's not about who the better player is. We saw that with Stevenson over Young and Ross over Young. Right now he's going Strickland over McGee to the point of driving a FAs contract up while pretty much ruining a young player's confidence or hope that the coach appreciates him.

Da-Met, I'm sorry that Flip doesn't have the overall character of a great coach. He wants his system and his players but he's not the kind of guy that's going to win with anything but a group of great players.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm not a huge fan of Flip but at least I like what I am reading if he is a part of us rebuilding.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02673.html

The Wizards are also guaranteed a high lottery pick and two large trade exceptions worth $6 million and $4.5 million, which could bring in more pieces. "You're in a situation where we have so many options, from a standpoint of the draft, free agency," Coach Flip Saunders said. "Everyone has to be on the same page, as far as the personality of the players, the intelligence of players, and how those players are going to fit in, in order to build for a championship."

- Personality ( ie maturity )
- Intelligence ( BB IQ and maturity )
- How they fit in - two way players to start and roll players off the bench

Mike Miller and Randy Foye strike me as guys with great personalities and good intelligence.

[hands11]

I'm a Pistons fan and let me tell you Flip is a liar. He regularly said things that were flat out untrue and designed to placate people on his back. His coaching tactics themselves sometimes get a bad rap, but in a he said she said dispute (the she being Flip) between coach and player I believe the player.

At another point, we had two SFs on our team, Mo Evans and Carlos Delfino. Neither are great players. But Delfino occasionally showed flashes of greatness, hustle, and D in very limited minutes. Mo Evans sucked consistently and was a black hole on defense. None of us could figure out why Evans was getting the minutes while Delfino got DNPs. Flip would consistently insist Delfino would be getting minutes in upcoming games, but didn't. Eventually he'd play Delfino 3 minutes or something, Delfino wouldn't do anything amazing and we'd be back to 10 minutes of Evans suckiness... okay no biggie.

Later, there was a local Detroit report that Mo Evans had gained some heat from the rest of the team as a snitch for Flip. In other words he would basically run back and report to Flip who was saying what about him. Gee I wonder where his minutes came from?

Frankly, Da-Met, without you posting this I'd come to the conclusion Flip has to have someone--a young player--in his doghouse. He strikes me as a guy who doesn't care about his players, save for the ones that suck up to him. I believe Blatche over Flip Saunders any day of the week because Saunders really appears to be the type dude that wants to impress those over him.

What I have liked least about Flip is he plays favorites. It's not about who the better player is. We saw that with Stevenson over Young and Ross over Young. Right now he's going Strickland over McGee to the point of driving a FAs contract up while pretty much ruining a young player's confidence or hope that the coach appreciates him.

Da-Met, I'm sorry that Flip doesn't have the overall character of a great coach. He wants his system and his players but he's not the kind of guy that's going to win with anything but a group of great players.

I have no problem with Flip starting Singleton after a 20 rebound game. I want performance rewarded. McGee while talented has made way to many stupid plays. Not just inexperienced plays but out right stupid plays. Ones that show you he isn't listening to anything the coaches are asking from him. A HS center knows not to get dribble happy on a fast break. GET THE DAMN BALL TO THE PG. He also takes some of the stupidest shots. So after McGee can't find his way to a rebound and Singleton finds his way to 20, hell yeah start him.

That said, please get ride of twitching....bus throwing..piss down the leg..KG loving.. Flip.

Between Collins and Flip, I just want a HC who doesn't twitch or lick his lips like a lizard about to catch a fly. Couldn't we have gotten Scott Skiles ? He was free wasn't he. Hell, let Sam coach.

I can't believe we are stuck with Flip for what, four more years ? I have a idea for the new CBA, you can fire a coach at any time and the max you would own them is whatever the next best contract offer was. If no one else offered a contract through the league office, they get the rest of the last year and see yeah.

Same deal with players. I understand they are sometimes choosing between teams and contracts so if they choose you and you want them gone then they are missing out on what they could have made somewhere else by choosing you. Fine, let that be the max you would owe them and negotiate a buyout from there. Or just go to the NFL model.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Just one game in the 15-loss streak. McGee had 13 points and 6 rebounds in 13 minutes. Singleton had 12 points and 6 rebounds in 26 minutes. Javale was twice as productive but played half the minutes. Meaningless though that may be.

Bump this because I'm more convinced than ever that Flip's been terrible this season.

[hands11]

Just one game in the 15-loss streak. McGee had 13 points and 6 rebounds in 13 minutes. Singleton had 12 points and 6 rebounds in 26 minutes. Javale was twice as productive but played half the minutes. Meaningless though that may be.

Bump this because I'm more convinced than ever that Flip's been terrible this season.

I know your pissed but and I agree Flip has made a lot of mistakes but this isnt one of them.

Just look at McGees game log. He is highly inconsistent. Singleton deserved the start after the work he has put in and a 20 rebound game. And, McGee had a little explosion of like 5 or 6 pts in two possessions. It was a nice little outburst but that is McGee. Once in a while he go off. They is the way young players like he play. Dray used to do it. Five games or so later, he would do it again.

Not defending Flip in total. I hate some of the things he has done. Specially the media stuff. But I'm not going to paint everything he does as bad when it isn't reasonable.

[closg00]

Imagine, this was our roster pre-trade and we couldn't win games....we still haven't won games. It's the coach folks.

Haywood/McGee
Blatche/Jamison
Miller/Butler
Foye/Young
Arenas

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Blatche started the season well, but Flip sent him back to the bench as soon as Jamison healed. At the same time Butler was struggling mightily, as was Arenas.

Flip could have played Haywood at C, Blatche at PF, and Jamison at SF. The goal at the time wasn't to trade Haywood with Butler, it was to win games. Flip stuck with Jamison/Butler at Fs even though that was clearly the single biggest problem with the old Wizards. They were terrible defensively and never met a shot they didn't like.

Flip NEVER tried McGee with Haywood.

Flip insisted on Stevenson ahead of Nick Young. Even had Quentin Ross ahead of Nick Young.

Similarly, he's going to play Oberto as much as McGee these next few games. McGee much less minutes than Singleton.

What Flip did with Butler was to change his game totally, and to the player's detriment. He asked Caron to be a catch and shoot player. Caron lost his whole identity under Flip.

Flip came in and made scorers have a hard time scoring.

He took a low-IQ, young-minded team and decided to criticize their weakness and to repeated lash out in the media. (The 0.1 tirade on McGee was bad. Call him a CBA all star was bad. Calling out Blatche for supposedly not going back in is bad. Calling out Blatche after 42 good minutes and 31 points/10 rebounds/3 assists/4 steals/3 blocks was bad. How often did Jamison EVER have 3 assists? When did Flip ever call Butler out for being selfish. Caron played that way at least a half dozen games (actually a bunch more).

I could go on and on about things bad about the way Flip Saunders has coached this season.

[dandridge 10]

[quote="Chocolate City Jordanaire"]Blatche started the season well, but Flip sent him back to the bench as soon as Jamison healed. At the same time Butler was struggling mightily, as was Arenas.

Flip could have played Haywood at C, Blatche at PF, and Jamison at SF. The goal at the time wasn't to trade Haywood with Butler, it was to win games. Flip stuck with Jamison/Butler at Fs even though that was clearly the single biggest problem with the old Wizards. They were terrible defensively and never met a shot they didn't like.

Flip NEVER tried McGee with Haywood.

Flip insisted on Stevenson ahead of Nick Young. Even had Quentin Ross ahead of Nick Young.

Similarly, he's going to play Oberto as much as McGee these next few games. McGee much less minutes than Singleton.

What Flip did with Butler was to change his game totally, and to the player's detriment. He asked Caron to be a catch and shoot player. Caron lost his whole identity under Flip.

Flip came in and made scorers have a hard time scoring.

He took a low-IQ, young-minded team and decided to criticize their weakness and to repeated lash out in the media. (The 0.1 tirade on McGee was bad. Call him a CBA all star was bad. Calling out Blatche for supposedly not going back in is bad. Calling out Blatche after 42 good minutes and 31 points/10 rebounds/3 assists/4 steals/3 blocks was bad. How often did Jamison EVER have 3 assists? When did Flip ever call Butler out for being selfish. Caron played that way at least a half dozen games (actually a bunch more).

I could go on and on about things bad about the way Flip Saunders has coached this season.[/quote]

Could? You do, just about every single day.

[hands11]

Blatche started the season well, but Flip sent him back to the bench as soon as Jamison healed. At the same time Butler was struggling mightily, as was Arenas.

Flip could have played Haywood at C, Blatche at PF, and Jamison at SF. The goal at the time wasn't to trade Haywood with Butler, it was to win games. Flip stuck with Jamison/Butler at Fs even though that was clearly the single biggest problem with the old Wizards. They were terrible defensively and never met a shot they didn't like.

Flip NEVER tried McGee with Haywood.

Flip insisted on Stevenson ahead of Nick Young. Even had Quentin Ross ahead of Nick Young.

Similarly, he's going to play Oberto as much as McGee these next few games. McGee much less minutes than Singleton.

What Flip did with Butler was to change his game totally, and to the player's detriment. He asked Caron to be a catch and shoot player. Caron lost his whole identity under Flip.

Flip came in and made scorers have a hard time scoring.

He took a low-IQ, young-minded team and decided to criticize their weakness and to repeated lash out in the media. (The 0.1 tirade on McGee was bad. Call him a CBA all star was bad. Calling out Blatche for supposedly not going back in is bad. Calling out Blatche after 42 good minutes and 31 points/10 rebounds/3 assists/4 steals/3 blocks was bad. How often did Jamison EVER have 3 assists? When did Flip ever call Butler out for being selfish. Caron played that way at least a half dozen games (actually a bunch more).

I could go on and on about things bad about the way Flip Saunders has coached this season.[/quote]
----------------
Sorry CJJ but that was funny. I needed a laugh.

Hey, I heard in post game that Flip said he put in something kind of new offense starting a week ago. First Ive heard of this. I guess it involved forcing Miller to shoot more so something.

Miller is averaging like 11 shots now.

Could just be AT going out. Who knows. I just didn't know we had a new offense.

Could? You do, just about every single day.

[LyricalRico]

I don't think Flip is "amazingly sucky" but I have come to the conclusion that he's not the right coach for a rebuilding team. He was absolutely the right hire when we expected to compete this season, but now it's pretty clear they need to go in a different direction. The problem is I don't know if Ted wants to eat that contract.

[miller31time]

I don't think Flip is "amazingly sucky" but I have come to the conclusion that he's not the right coach for a rebuilding team. He was absolutely the right hire when we expected to compete this season, but now it's pretty clear they need to go in a different direction. The problem is I don't know if Ted wants to eat that contract.

I think what we need to keep in mind is that since Gilbert is coming back, we won't really be rebuilding in the classic sense of the word (ie: a horrible, horrible team that is only looking for improvement from our rookies and 2nd year players).

Gilbert, Blatche and our 1st rounder(s) will be enough for a semi-respectable record (probably 30-35 wins). I think Flip would be decent for that type of team - one where they're on the cusp of being a good squad but need the experience of someone who has done it before.

Or maybe I'm completely misreading Flip and overestimating the potential of our team come next year.

[verbal8]

I don't think Flip is "amazingly sucky" but I have come to the conclusion that he's not the right coach for a rebuilding team. He was absolutely the right hire when we expected to compete this season, but now it's pretty clear they need to go in a different direction. The problem is I don't know if Ted wants to eat that contract.

I think what we need to keep in mind is that since Gilbert is coming back, we won't really be rebuilding in the classic sense of the word (ie: a horrible, horrible team that is only looking for improvement from our rookies and 2nd year players).

Gilbert, Blatche and our 1st rounder(s) will be enough for a semi-respectable record (probably 30-35 wins). I think Flip would be decent for that type of team - one where they're on the cusp of being a good squad but need the experience of someone who has done it before.

Or maybe I'm completely misreading Flip and overestimating the potential of our team come next year.

The second year he coached the Twolves they had Garnett, Googs and Marbury. With Arenas, Blatche and a lotto pick(especially Cousins) the Wizards next year may not look too different from that team.

[closg00]

Did Flip call-out Mike Miller when he missed 4 point-blank lay-ups and went 4-15 in the Houstongame? Did he get pulled? I am so sick of Flip's need to temper anything positive about Andray, McGee & Young with a dose of negative Flipism. Sure "Andray had a nice game but he had only 3 assists" etc.

Flip is going to implode when there is an influx 3 new rookies next year (If Ernie doesn't sell/trade them). Rico & CCJ are right, Flip is not the coach to have for a rebuilding team.

[queridiculo]

This ridiculous outrage over Saunders cruel treatment of young players is really starting to grate on me. Just how much sense does it make to single out a 10 year NBA vet? He's not part of the longterm plans of this franchise, and I'm sure that behind closed doors he talks to them about his shortcomings just like he does to the young kids.

All Saunders is doing is tempering the enthusiasm about the kids supposed stellar play by introducing a much needed reality check. Just listening to the nonsense coming out of McGee's mouth after the Boston game makes it painfully obvious that those guys need to be humbled more than anything.

Until the youngins prove that they can do more than fill a stat sheet and thrown down highlight dunks they deserve to be called out with every single loss they leave in their wake.

[nate33]

This ridiculous outrage over Saunders cruel treatment of young players is really starting to grate on me. Just how much sense does it make to single out a 10 year NBA vet? He's not part of the longterm plans of this franchise, and I'm sure that behind closed doors he talks to them about his shortcomings just like he does to the young kids.

All Saunders is doing is tempering the enthusiasm about the kids supposed stellar play by introducing a much needed reality check. Just listening to the nonsense coming out of McGee's mouth after the Boston game makes it painfully obvious that those guys need to be humbled more than anything.

Until the youngins prove that they can do more than fill a stat sheet and thrown down highlight dunks they deserve to be called out with every single loss they leave in their wake.

+1

The Flip hate around here is out of control. I actually like the way Flip has treated the youngsters for the most part (with the big exception of Flip calling out Blatche after the Boston game). Flip is riding them hard but building a foundation for success. Heck, the improvement of Blatche alone is enough to justify Flip's methods. If you would have told me last year that one of Blatche/McGee/Young would turn out to be an all star caliber player and the other two would turn out to be duds, I'd have taken that deal.

I think Flip is handling McGee correctly. He has given him chances, he has even thrust him into the starting lineup, but he's not going to let McGee continue to perpetuate his bad habits. McGee is on a short leash, and deservedly so. I think the big test will be this summer. McGee must now be fully aware of his upside potential, while also being fully aware how bad he has been at times this season. If that doesn't motivate him, nothing well.

I'm not quite as satisfied with his handling of Young. It may well be that Young is pretty much uncoachable so I'll give Flip the benefit of the doubt, but I do think Flip missed out on opportunities to positively reinforce Young when he has played well.

[dandridge 10]

This ridiculous outrage over Saunders cruel treatment of young players is really starting to grate on me. Just how much sense does it make to single out a 10 year NBA vet? He's not part of the longterm plans of this franchise, and I'm sure that behind closed doors he talks to them about his shortcomings just like he does to the young kids.

All Saunders is doing is tempering the enthusiasm about the kids supposed stellar play by introducing a much needed reality check. Just listening to the nonsense coming out of McGee's mouth after the Boston game makes it painfully obvious that those guys need to be humbled more than anything.

Until the youngins prove that they can do more than fill a stat sheet and thrown down highlight dunks they deserve to be called out with every single loss they leave in their wake.

+1

The Flip hate around here is out of control. I actually like the way Flip has treated the youngsters for the most part (with the big exception of Flip calling out Blatche after the Boston game). Flip is riding them hard but building a foundation for success. Heck, the improvement of Blatche alone is enough to justify Flip's methods. If you would have told me last year that one of Blatche/McGee/Young would turn out to be an all star caliber player and the other two would turn out to be duds, I'd have taken that deal.

I think Flip is handling McGee correctly. He has given him chances, he has even thrust him into the starting lineup, but he's not going to let McGee continue to perpetuate his bad habits. McGee is on a short leash, and deservedly so. I think the big test will be this summer. McGee must now be fully aware of his upside potential, while also being fully aware how bad he has been at times this season. If that doesn't motivate him, nothing well.

I'm not quite as satisfied with his handling of Young. It may well be that Young is pretty much uncoachable so I'll give Flip the benefit of the doubt, but I do think Flip missed out on opportunities to positively reinforce Young when he has played well.

+2.

[Ruzious]

Blatche started the season well, but Flip sent him back to the bench as soon as Jamison healed. At the same time Butler was struggling mightily, as was Arenas.

Flip could have played Haywood at C, Blatche at PF, and Jamison at SF. The goal at the time wasn't to trade Haywood with Butler, it was to win games. Flip stuck with Jamison/Butler at Fs even though that was clearly the single biggest problem with the old Wizards. They were terrible defensively and never met a shot they didn't like.

Flip NEVER tried McGee with Haywood.

Flip insisted on Stevenson ahead of Nick Young. Even had Quentin Ross ahead of Nick Young.

Similarly, he's going to play Oberto as much as McGee these next few games. McGee much less minutes than Singleton.

What Flip did with Butler was to change his game totally, and to the player's detriment. He asked Caron to be a catch and shoot player. Caron lost his whole identity under Flip.

Flip came in and made scorers have a hard time scoring.

He took a low-IQ, young-minded team and decided to criticize their weakness and to repeated lash out in the media. (The 0.1 tirade on McGee was bad. Call him a CBA all star was bad. Calling out Blatche for supposedly not going back in is bad. Calling out Blatche after 42 good minutes and 31 points/10 rebounds/3 assists/4 steals/3 blocks was bad. How often did Jamison EVER have 3 assists? When did Flip ever call Butler out for being selfish. Caron played that way at least a half dozen games (actually a bunch more).

I could go on and on about things bad about the way Flip Saunders has coached this season.

CCJ, do you think any head coach in the NBA that would have played McGee with Haywood?

Larry Brown? Phil Jackson? Any other HOF level coach of your choosing? How would they have handled Jav, Young, and Dray differently?

[Hoopalotta]

Yeah, I'm in too.

My one real gripe is that I consider the 2 recent bombastic media sessions to be huge blunders as you just don't devalue an asset like Blatche in that manner as you kill his value around the league (not that I advocate trading Blatche by any means, but he was our best chip. Was). Plus the whole affair was just embarrassing with all of the negative national media attention (I mean, Wojo penned a hatchet job article, for Pete's sake). We were a total laughing stock, again.

But other than that, I don't have any real problems, though I am a bit concerned about him and three rookies coming in. Actually though, I still think Flip and McGee could work out well and his handling of things there might be the way to go. With Young, I mean, meh, we need a new project two guard anyway. A lot to be said for smarts and court sense in the back court, a lot to be said.

We'll just have to see how Flip reacts to a possible real, live 'Rebuild'. I'm sure he'd be happy with free agent spending this summer, but that might not be the way things turn out with Teddy-L strolling in.

Truth is, looking at the team boards around here, most fanbases have a big faction that hates their head coach.

However, I don't really have the enthusiasm or endurance to argue over Mr. Flip. I'm making a point of paying more attention to the things that bring some sort of enjoyment.

[doclinkin]

I'm agnostic on Flip, with one exception. He really really needs to get over his ex-wife Kevin Garnett. Look KG has always been one of my favorite players too, but he's not on your team now, work with what you've got. Your new girlfriend is getting sick and tired of hearing about how your girl KG would have done it this way and bla bla bla. She left you. Get therapy and move on.