Prime Tmac was just as good as Kobe today (long post)

[XTC]

I hated Mcgrady for leaving my beloved Raptors, and acting the way he did, but I could never deny his talent. The man in his prime was a scoring machine, who could also be a point forward. On top of his game, he was as good as Kobe in my opinion. The dude was literally unstoppable, but the one thing he lacked was luck. Yes luck, I really feel Mcgrady was the unluckiest superstar of all time. Yeah he had Yao, but the rest of his cast was lackluster and overrated in my opinion. We blame Tracy for never getting out of the first round, but he always showed up for those big games, his teammates never did. Are we forgetting how good this guy was during his peak(albeit a short one)?

Here are his prime numbers:
00-01: 26.8 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1.5 SPG, 1.5 BPG
01-02: 25.6 PPG, 7.8RPG, 5.3 APG, 1.6 SPG
02-03: 32.1 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.6 SPG
03-04: 28.0 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.4 SPG
04-05: 25.7 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.7 APG, 1.7 SPG
05-06: 24.4 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 4.8 APG, 1.3 SPG
06-07: 24.6 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 6.5 APG, 1.3 SPG

His prime in my opinion was unreal, and as he started to lose some athletic abilities he became more of a passer, and less of a scorer, and what do we see? Yao starts scoring way more. What happened last year when Tracy was injured and barely played? Yao's scoring once again went down.

total games 491
total points 13195
total assists 2664
total rebounds 3232
total steals 738

Average During these years

70 Games Played
26.9 Points Per Game
6.5 Rebounds Per Game
5.5 Assist Per Game
1.5 Steals Per Game

Scoring like Durant, but a far better all around game, but that's just regular season, and means nothing he's a choker in the playoffs! Let's take a look at his playoffs numbers during his career(excluding toronto year)

00-01: 33.8 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 8.3
01-02: 30.8 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.5
02-03: 31.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 4.7
03-04: Miss
04-05: 30.7 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 6.7
05-06: 25.3 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 7.3
06-07: 27.0 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 6.8

Total During These Years
Games 35
Points 1034
Assists 227
Rebounds 240
Steals 48

Averages During These Years
29.5 Points Per Game
6.5 Assists Per Game
6.8 Rebounds Per Game
1.4 Steals Per Game

His numbers across the board all go up during the playoffs. Something is fishy here he's great in the regular season, and his numbers actually go up during the playoffs? What gives? He's not clutch! That MUST BE IT!

Lets forget he had 13 points in 33 seconds to beat the spurs, or any buzzer beaters he may have had for a second. Let take a look at his track record when he has had to play in elimination game 6's and 7's.

2003 Game 7 Vs Detroit: 21 points, 6 assists, 5 rebounds, 7-24 shooting (choke, but you had to remember how awful those Orlando teams where, but no excuses)
2005 Game 7 Vs Dallas: 27 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists
2007 Game 7 Vs Utah: 29 points, 5 rebounds, 13 assists
2008 Game 6 Vs Utah 40 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists

Those are just game 6's and 7's lets include all elimination games, and see how Tmac does in pressure situation, in do or die situations.

2001 25 points, 3 rebounds, 8 assists(10-26 shooting, but first ever playoffs)
2002 Game 4 Vs Charlotte 35 points, 4 rebounds, 6 assists

So in elimination games he only had 1 bad game, 1 average game, 2 games where he's at Tmac level, and 2 game's where he played out of his mind.

Overall in game 6's and 7's he averages: 29.3 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 7.8 APG

And in elimination games he averages: 29.5 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 7.5 APG

so overall you have your shooting guard giving you:
Regular Season: 26.9 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.5 SPG
Playoffs: 29.5 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 6.5 APG, 1.4 SPG
Elimination Games: 29.5 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 7.5 APG
Game 6's + 7's: 29.3 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 7.8 APG

Elite scoring, elite rebounding for a wing, elite playmaking for a wing, raises his play in the playoffs, and raises his game when it's elimination time. Every single player ever since he hit his prime(other then Yao) has stunk it up in the playoffs. Tracy was never to blame(but he should get some, but not the hate that he always gets), he always came to play when the tough got going. He just suffered from bad luck. If he was drafted by LA and they still got Shaq, and Kobe played for the teams Tracy did, would we be looking at a totally different scenario?

[That Nicka]

ok

[Biff]

I think most people would agree that TMac had as much talent as Kobe, but their competitive drives were what set them apart. I'm not saying that TMac wasn't competitive, but Kobe was/is at a completely different level.

[NYK 455]

I think peak TMac was just as good, if not better, but his peak didn't last long.

[XTC]

I think most people would agree that TMac had as much talent as Kobe, but their competitive drives were what set them apart. I'm not saying that TMac wasn't competitive, but Kobe was/is at a completely different level.

What I'm trying to get at is, I don't think T-mac deserves the label of a choker. Sure he hasn't accomplished anything, but when you post 40 points in an elimination game, and still lose, I don't think you can point the blame on one person.

[kasino]

not as good as kobe but nice read

[yiskobesogood]

He may be close offensively. I would argue Kobe has a larger variety of shots in his arsenal. I would also argue that Kobe is much better in the clutch. But sure offensively he put up great numbers in his prime.

But you didn't get too much into the DEFENSIVE end, where T-Mac isn't half the player Kobe is.

[bl2k]

I think most people would agree that TMac had as much talent as Kobe, but their competitive drives were what set them apart. I'm not saying that TMac wasn't competitive, but Kobe was/is at a completely different level.

[RamonSessions7]

I don't know about always showed up big. In the 3 games he had to eliminate the pistons in the Magic's infamous collapse series, he had 2 games where he scored less pts than his FGA including the one you mentioned. It was just three games, but people remember that because of his comments after game 4 then followed up by his ability to never get out of the first round.

There's no way luck is the only reason for a player=Kobe to not see the 2nd round ever. There were definitely some years his play deserved to get into the second round like 07, but there were also years like 03, 05, 06 where if he had stepped it up like a top player in the game should in the losses in those series, he would have seen round 2. I'm not saying he choked those years, but if he's really that level of player you find a way to win those opportunies in 7 game series.

EDIT: Actually even in 07, the losses in that series were pretty bad games for TMAC minus game 7.23-64 for 36% shooting in those 3.

[Ortho Stice]

this topic is an insult to mcgrady. in his prime he was clearly better than this season's kobe

[clipocketurs]

Prime Tracy led the league in PER. Kobe is 12th in PER (minimum 30 mpg) right now.

Championsips are a team accomplishment.
Switch their teammates.
McGrady would have multiple championships.
Kobe would have 0.

McGrady's best 4 seasons combined > Kobe's best 4 seasons combined

PER tells the story since it adjusts for pace and minutes.

[theDEATH]

He may be close offensively.I would argue Kobe has a larger variety of shots in his arsenal. I would also argue that Kobe is much better in the clutch. But sure offensively he put up great numbers in his prime.

But you didn't get too much into the DEFENSIVE end, where T-Mac isn't half the player Kobe is.

Honestly, Kobe's defense has been going off reputation for a while now, he's not nearly as good as people say he is these days. Anyway, if you watched Tracy during his younger days, he was pretty much a defensive titan; him and Vince formed the perfect combo because he would be the stopper at the wing and Vince would be the scorer.

Also, Kobe's career shooting in the clutch hasn't nearly been as good as it is this year, so outside of Kobe's 2009-2010 season, I would say that 13 in 30 trumps pretty much anything anyone could say about T-Mac's clutch shooting. Anyway, I didn't expect you to be unbiased, considering your screen name.

[theDEATH]

this topic is an insult to mcgrady. in his prime he was clearly better than this season's kobe

Prime McGrady was a force to be reckoned with. He gave you almost Bron-ish numbers, averaging 27/8/5 on decent shooting. Its a shame both him and his cousins weren't strong willed enough to do what was necessary to succeed, if either of them worked hard, they could have both been up there with the GOATs.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Prime Tracy led the league in PER. Kobe is 12th in PER (minimum 30 mpg) right now.

Championsips are a team accomplishment.
Switch their teammates.
McGrady would have multiple championships.
Kobe would have 0.

McGrady's best 4 seasons combined > Kobe's best 4 seasons combined

PER tells the story since it adjusts for pace and minutes.

I pretty much agree with this.

People talk about how determined and dedicated Kobe is, but completely forget about how he practically quit on his team in the 2nd half of a game 7 one year, and tried to force a trade of himself or a teammate in another, not to mention he helped to manipulate the draft so the Lakers could draft him.

I can't imagine Kobe giving it all year after year if he were playing on a team as bad as those Magic teams.

[Vinsane15]

how was he unlucky?? its his fault...he left Toronto dissing VC, the city and management...then left Orlando because he didn't want to wait for and help high schooler Dwight develop...he should have stayed in one of those two situations. And besides that game vs S.A in 04, he has never been clutch. I remember him missing a lot of game winners in his prime, one time he air balled a open shot @ ATL. Plus he took a lot of shots to get those points....

[XTC]

He may be close offensively. I would argue Kobe has a larger variety of shots in his arsenal. I would also argue that Kobe is much better in the clutch. But sure offensively he put up great numbers in his prime.

But you didn't get too much into the DEFENSIVE end, where T-Mac isn't half the player Kobe is.

T-Mac was very good defensively in his younger days, he was an AMAZING help defender with Toronto. He had a year where he averaged 1.9 blocks per game, and would always be put on the the wing player when he was in Toronto. In his Toronto days he was viewed more of a defensive player.

[AdamTheGreek]

I think most people would agree that TMac had as much talent as Kobe, but their competitive drives were what set them apart. I'm not saying that TMac wasn't competitive, but Kobe was/is at a completely different level.

Pretty much nailed it.

[Rasheeed!!!]

all i read was 1st round virgin

[dropbowsonem_25]

since thee 2000 season mcgrady has played in above 70 games 4 times..
since the 2000 season mcgrady has averaged more than 45% shooting 3 times
since the 2000 season mcgrady has been out the first round zero times

not good as kobe material mate...

[Blame Rasho]

since thee 2000 season mcgrady has played in above 70 games 4 times..
since the 2000 season mcgrady has averaged more than 45% shooting 3 times
since the 2000 season mcgrady has been out the first round zero times

not good as kobe material mate...

Yeah... did you read the thread title at all?