Prime Tmac was just as good as Kobe today (long post)

[HouMac]

Where Kobe beats 02-03 T-Mac, and I'm talking about any '01-10 version of Kobe here, is in the intangibles. T-Mac non-boxscore production is a MAJOR reason why he's never been a winner. He's not a leader. He's not clutch. He's not a gritty/tough-minded player that can will his team to victories. Can you imagine Kobe failing to get past the 1st round on those 05-08 Rocket teams? Or not being able to beat the likes of Hornets in '02? Or blowing a 3-1 lead against Detroit in '03? None of things would ever happen if you switch Kobe with T-Mac.

[slickvik]

im no fan of me-mac.....
but your forgetting that kobe did give away a 3-1 edge..rem the lakers/phoenix series?

[Gus McCrae]

im no fan of me-mac.....
but your forgetting that kobe did give away a 3-1 edge..rem the lakers/phoenix series?

ugh don't remind me. Though in fairness we had no business being in that series. PHX was the #2 seed and that was when they were stacked, we stole 2 of those games and Kwame Brown decided he was an all-star.

But yeah, we did blow that lead.

[MagicMadness]

I think most people would agree that TMac had as much talent as Kobe, but their competitive drives were what set them apart. I'm not saying that TMac wasn't competitive, but Kobe was/is at a completely different level.

Exactly. Talent-wise, they were very similar.

But Kobe possessed the mind, drive, and intangibles of a legend...while T-Mac had trouble even leading a team.

[Ortho Stice]

"But to be the best you've got to win, and that's what drives me"

-Kobe

in mcgrady's best season he had 16.1 win shares, which is not only more than kobe will end up having this season, but it's more than he's had in any single season.

Kobe's killer instinct and uncompromising will to win is what separates him from the McGrady, Carter and Grant Hill types.

this is absolutely ridiculous. if mcgrady didn't have an uncompromising will to win, then he wouldve given up in that spurs game, but he scored 13 points in the last half minute, culminating in a 3 with a second left to win the game. pretty sure kobe hasn't done anything as impressive in the final half minute of game.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceLlz7dOOvY[/youtube]

To compare McGrady '03 to Kobe '10 is disrespectful to one of the greatest basketball players of all-time.

agreed

[the_warden]

Kobe's killer instinct and uncompromising will to win is what separates him from the McGrady, Carter and Grant Hill types.

Grant Hill? What?

[lilfishi22]

Kobe's killer instinct and uncompromising will to win is what separates him from the McGrady, Carter and Grant Hill types.

Grant Hill? What?

Don't tell NF33

[Chronz]

im no fan of me-mac.....
but your forgetting that kobe did give away a 3-1 edge..rem the lakers/phoenix series?

ugh don't remind me. Though in fairness we had no business being in that series. PHX was the #2 seed and that was when they were stacked, we stole 2 of those games and Kwame Brown decided he was an all-star.

But yeah, we did blow that lead.

Yea but Tmac getting the magic to the 8th seed (by averaging 35.5-6.5-6.3 since the A-S Break) were clearly on par with the #1 seed, defensively oriented Pistons.

Mac played with crap and his teams ALWAYS overachieved. Those mentioning the fact that the Rockets finally made the 2nd round without him are proving they know nothing of the context applied in this argument. Tmac was only at a form comparable to his peak for 1 season in Houston. Ever since hes been on a decline. So what does a lesser Mac have anything to do with this?

Besides by then the team finally had the talent to advance and they finally played a matchup where Yao could play against natural centers who couldnt draw him out, and inexplicably without much double teaming. Yao's defensive abilities were a strength every year they won 50+, but come playoff time he was always exposed. Theres more to the game than wins and losses, measure HOW you win and WHO you lose to.

[KingKover]

T-mac was my favourite player in his prime and i watched almost every magic game. My objective opinion is that he was just as good as Kobe in his prime. I remember they had some epic battles and i loved watching those 2 go at each other. You gotta remember that T-mac had the worst supporting cast ever. Pat Garrity, Andrew Declerque (sp?)? Who else I can't even remember? Kobe probably put a lot more work in the offseason than Tmac to ensure his body could handle the rigors of the NBA season. But talent wise T-mac was just as good as Kobe if not better.

[BB Chrome]

I can remember back when the debate was KOBE or Vince

T-Mac was never as consistent, as he admitted in a televised interview that he quit in games. As a long term NBA junkie, it's clear to me that Tracy doesn't really like basketball per say, he just plays for the money. I.E. A toll booth employee who only cares about the 1st and 15th of every month. Some days they smile but most days they are on auto-pilot collecting the check.

[ropjhk]

Kobe's killer instinct and uncompromising will to win is what separates him from the McGrady, Carter and Grant Hill types. He wasn't more athletic than these guys, but he worked tirelessly to improve his game and become the most skilled player in the NBA. What you see today is 12 years of blood sweat and tears that has made Kobe the most cold-blooded assissin in the NBA, and the most accomplished current player that's still in his prime. McGrady has never possessed the same intangibles that has made Bryant so successful, and T-Mac 2003 shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as the Kobe Bryant we see today. One is a legend and the other is an underachiever with two careers that ended up at the complete opposite of the spectrum. Kobe has his Lakers positioned once again for a very good shot at the title - and you're telling me you'd rather have McGrady '03 than Kobe for a run at the title? Please. To compare McGrady '03 to Kobe '10 is disrespectful to one of the greatest basketball players of all-time.

You also forgot to mention Kobe's relatively good health.

Kobe never suffered career debilitating injuries like back spasms (Tracy MacGrady), broken ankles (Grant Hill) or a busted vagina (Vince Carter).

[Viol8tor Mode]

Sats and number wise, sure.

But no way does T-Mac have the killer instinct, the ability to close out games like Kobe does.

[Sothron]

I think most people would agree that TMac had as much talent as Kobe, but their competitive drives were what set them apart. I'm not saying that TMac wasn't competitive, but Kobe was/is at a completely different level.

I disagree with that completely. Look at T-mac's post season numbers. That guy came to play. Its not his fault his team wasn't good enough. I don't think you can say a guy who averaged around 30 a game in the post season lacked competitive fire.

T-mac is a guy that will be remembered as being a superstar player whose career was cut short due to injuries. He's that generation's Penny Hardaway.

[DraftBoy10]

No defense and not clutch?

Are you serious? This guy was supremely clutch and our best defender in end-of game situations. He guarded Dirk Nowitzki in his 1st playoff run with the Rockets, averaged like 30/7/7, hit the game-2 winner, this guy was unreal at that time. Yes, he did blow a 2-0 lead with no HC advantage, but there's still some suspcious behavior about the critical refeering mistakes. I hate to blame the refs, but just google game 5 04-05 mavs. rockets, it's a huge, huge controversy and something Donaghy mentioned before. Irregardless of that, he was someone on a regular basis would cover the other teams ebst player at the end of games, and do a tremendous job at it. Not only that, he hit several game tying, winner, or assisting shots.

His problem was never talent and ability, it was always how much harder do I hve to try. He did try hard, anyone who says he doesn't is bullshitting themselves, because no one just walks on to the NBA court putting up 30/6/6 and literally dominating games by themselves without working hard. It's just that EXTRA effort. That EXTRA will and determination that Kobe has, and T-Mac never did. T-Mac talks a lot too, he just doesn't back it up. Talent and ability wise, he was someone that was unstoppable on defense and could've been a tremendous defensive basketball player, it's just he didn't take it that EXTRA mile. He settled for being an all-star caliber player, with 2-3 years of being a top 5, 6 player. He could've been a HOFer if he wanted, too.

[playaloc916]

You also forgot to mention Kobe's relatively good health.

Kobe never suffered career debilitating injuries like back spasms (Tracy MacGrady), broken ankles (Grant Hill) or a busted vagina (Vince Carter).

[Basileus777]

Kobe's killer instinct and uncompromising will to win is what separates him from the McGrady, Carter and Grant Hill types. He wasn't more athletic than these guys, but he worked tirelessly to improve his game and become the most skilled player in the NBA. What you see today is 12 years of blood sweat and tears that has made Kobe the most cold-blooded assissin in the NBA, and the most accomplished current player that's still in his prime. McGrady has never possessed the same intangibles that has made Bryant so successful, and T-Mac 2003 shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as the Kobe Bryant we see today. One is a legend and the other is an underachiever with two careers that ended up at the complete opposite of the spectrum. Kobe has his Lakers positioned once again for a very good shot at the title - and you're telling me you'd rather have McGrady '03 than Kobe for a run at the title? Please. To compare McGrady '03 to Kobe '10 is disrespectful to one of the greatest basketball players of all-time.

You also forgot to mention Kobe's relatively good health.

Kobe never suffered career debilitating injuries like back spasms (Tracy MacGrady), broken ankles (Grant Hill) or a busted vagina (Vince Carter).

To be fair, Kobe has a bit of Wince in him too with his weekly injuries.

[playaloc916]

His problem was never talent and ability, it was always how much harder do I hve to try. He did try hard, anyone who says he doesn't is **** themselves, because no one just walks on to the NBA court putting up 30/6/6 and literally dominating games by themselves without working hard. It's just that EXTRA effort. That EXTRA will and determination that Kobe has, and T-Mac never did. T-Mac talks a lot too, he just doesn't back it up. Talent and ability wise, he was someone that was unstoppable on defense and could've been a tremendous defensive basketball player, it's just he didn't take it that EXTRA mile. He settled for being an all-star caliber player, with 2-3 years of being a top 5, 6 player. He could've been a HOFer if he wanted, too.

+1
McGrady definitely had drive and determination, but Kobe just had more. That extra amount is enough to set their careers apart.

But injuries are another factor as well. With chronic injuries, McGrady may have lost some of his motivation to become even better.

[TMU]

TMac is insanely overrated on this board. He was a loud mouth primadonna who constantly got owned throughout his career. This is a guy who proclaimed himself the best player when the Magic faced Baron and the Hornets. So what happens.....Tmac has a good 3 quarters, and turns invinsible in the 4th(story of his career). Magic actually had that series, but Baron ripped him twice and scored, giving the Hornets the win.

Tmac whined about not having a bigman, and has failed next to Yao, in fact, Houston won a series once he got hurt. Put Kobe with Yao and they would be in the Finals.

Tmac was a bad, gambling defender, go ask Magic fans about this. He sat out the end of the year, just to protect his scoring title. The guy was no leader. Better yet, go google old message board posts about Tmac and you'll see what people thought of him back in the day.

Most people ranked things as:

#1 Kobe
#2 Iverson
#3 Vince
#4 Pierce
#5 Tmac

What do you mean he tried to protect his scoring title? Did you get that from google as well? McGrady led the league in ppg with 28. Peja came 2nd with 24.2 ppg. The race wasn't even close. Even if McGrady played in those remaining games I'm confident to say he'd still average anywhere between 20 to 30 ppg during that stretch.

McGrady individually was a good defender since his days in Toronto. Meanwhile, the Magic as a whole was a poor defensive team. It's easy to blame the best player when your team has one of the worst, if not the worst, defense in the league. Once McGrady moved to Houston, it was quite obvious that he wasn't a defensive liability.

Prime McGrady was great and you're just in denial.

[mopper8]

I can remember back when the debate was KOBE or Vince

T-Mac was never as consistent, as he admitted in a televised interview that he quit in games. As a long term NBA junkie, it's clear to me that Tracy doesn't really like basketball per say, he just plays for the money. I.E. A toll booth employee who only cares about the 1st and 15th of every month. Some days they smile but most days they are on auto-pilot collecting the check.

At 6 feet 8 inches, he could be an overpowering staff ace or a fearsome closer. Imagine the possibilities. McGrady has.

“I love baseball right to this day more than I love basketball,” he said, lounging at the Knicks’ hotel here earlier this week. “I love it. I love it.”

Before he was a seven-time N.B.A. All-Star, McGrady was indeed a power pitcher, and a very good one, during his teenage years in Auburndale, Fla. His fastball reached the low 90s. His dream was to pitch at Yankee Stadium. Some years ago, McGrady even asked his agent, Arn Tellem, to look into a one-day stint on the mound, perhaps in spring training.

“I told him if I was to give it a shot, that’s what I’d want, to go up there and at least pitch one game,” McGrady said with a bright smile. “Just give me one shot.”

Link

[JT3000]

TMac is insanely overrated on this board. He was a loud mouth primadonna who constantly got owned throughout his career. This is a guy who proclaimed himself the best player when the Magic faced Baron and the Hornets. So what happens.....Tmac has a good 3 quarters, and turns invinsible in the 4th(story of his career). Magic actually had that series, but Baron ripped him twice and scored, giving the Hornets the win.

Tmac whined about not having a bigman, and has failed next to Yao, in fact, Houston won a series once he got hurt. Put Kobe with Yao and they would be in the Finals.

Tmac was a bad, gambling defender, go ask Magic fans about this. He sat out the end of the year, just to protect his scoring title. The guy was no leader. Better yet, go google old message board posts about Tmac and you'll see what people thought of him back in the day.

Most people ranked things as:

#1 Kobe
#2 Iverson
#3 Vince
#4 Pierce
#5 Tmac

Someone obviously smokes the strong ish. Do you even believe the tripe you type?