Would Pioli and Belichick and Dallas do this?

campybatman · Post #1 » by **campybatman** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:40 am

It's being said that Dallas likes Darren McFadden. Let's say that McFadden declares for the 2008 NFL draft and the 49ers' first round pick which is owned by the Patriots ends up being a top three or five selection. Could a trade be consummated between New England and Dallas? I mean Dallas owns two first round picks in the 2008 NFL draft. The Patriots can exchange the 49ers' first round pick for Cleveland's first round pick which is owned by Dallas and Marion Barber III.

I really believe this is a fair trade for both teams. The Patriots acquire a power running back and likely starter in Barber to assume the Corey Dillon role while Maroney is a change of pace running back like when Dillon was here. Seems like the trend is to have dual running backs and Barber and Maroney were already once a tandem as teammates in college. So, I don't think Maroney would have too big of a problem giving way to the older Barber. Not to mention with Sammy Morris and Faulk. You've yourself strong depth at the running back position next season for the Patriots.

The Patriots do this trade because if not they'll either trade down and gain future picks with the 49ers' first round pick or simply trade down to avoid paying that much for such a high draft choice. Dallas might be more willing to pay a McFadden. Plus, for New England, you gain a first round pick still and you get to draft in the lower half of the draft where Pioli and Belichick probably feel more comfortable picking at. Besides, I just believe that Belichick would really like the kind of player Barber has shown that he is and could fit into the Patriots system well. For Dallas, you get a possible game changing running back and still would've Julius Jones in a reserve role. Barber has more value right now than Jones. So, if he were to be on the block. Teams would be more apt to inquire about Barber than Jones in my opinion. And I don't think Dallas is attached to them both if it proves that McFadden can be had next year via the NFL draft.

Post #2 » by **Chach** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:12 am

The Patriots don't automatically trade their picks. They target certain guys and if he isn't there, they trade the pick and acquire the best value for it because it's silly to overdraft on a guy they like in the mid second round at pick 27. Get more picks and chances are, Mr. 49 will be there when we pick. So if we go into the draft knowing we have the #2 overall pick, I'm pretty sure whoever the Pats are targeting will be there. Cleveland is going to have a nice but not great pick, they are close to a playoff spot. No way the Pats drop all the way to the mid teens, early 20s when they potentially have the #2, at worst #5, pick. Not a flippin chance.

For reference, if you use the draft pick value chart, the second overall pick is worth 2600 points. The #6 overall pick is worth 1600 points. So for the #6 overall team to move up four spots to get McFadden, they would have to part with their first, second, and third round pick and that still doesn't equal the value of the #2 overall pick. So no, Cleveland's pick and Marion Barber isn't enough, especially when we already have a running back in Maroney. If we are going to add another RB, it's going to be an explosive, playmaker like McFadden. mahalo
~Chach~

Post #3 » by **Basketball Jesus** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:47 pm

Um, dear lord, yes? That deal, in a vacuum, is an absolute no-brainer on the Patriots' part.

Post #4 » by **Chach** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:02 pm

You really like Barber that much? To get a 20th overall pick and him in exchange for McFadden? I believe Barber is a restricted FA after this season so I'm not sure how a trade would work out to begin with. Also, aren't you the same person who talks about the impending cap situation for the Pats? McFadden will cost a pretty penny being the #2 overall pick but Barber is the main RB in Dallas so he won't come cheap either.

The Giants gave up their 2004 and 2005 first round picks, a third round pick in 2004, and a fifth round pick in 2005 to move up 3 spots to get Eli Manning. Now I wouldn't expect the same bounty for the #2 pick and because most GMs are retards but I want more than the 18th overall pick and a bruising RB who is about to get expensive. Just my point of view, though. mahalo
~Chach~

Post #5 » by **Basketball Jesus** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:09 pm

Oh, yeah. He is an RFA after this season. For some reason I thought his contract was up after the 2008 season. I guess that makes this deal essentially impossible.

Now, on to whether I think, in a vacuum, that deal is worth doing if it were possible. (Disregarding all contractual obligations to Barber and McFadden) I do. Barber is one of the 5-10 best backs in the league.

Post #6 » by **Chach** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:43 am

I guess I'm not just as enamored with Barber. Don't get me wrong, I think he's definitely a solid RB and, in a vacuum, I would be more than happy to have him. But if you have the #2 overall pick in the draft, I want a real impact player. I don't feel that Barber is that. He's also a hard charging back and those guys worry me longevity wise. I was a huge Eddie George fan back in the day and he dropped like a **** rock. One or two injuries add up and with Barber having been in the league for a few years and looking for a long term contract with some guaranteed money, I don't feel 100% confident in sacrificing the potential impact talent the #2 pick could bring for that.

Hell, if he like Barber sign him as a RFA and see if Dallas matches and if they don't, move the #2 pick to someone at 5-6 and pick up some extra picks. The last pick we had in the top 10 was Richard Seymour and I'd say that worked out all right for us. I'm all for moving the pick but I want impact talent back and with Maroney already in the backfield, I don't see Barber as being the best fit right now (and that probably applies to McFadden too, which is why I'm torn on keeping or moving the pick). mahalo
~Chach~

alwayslovetheceltics · Post #7 » by **alwayslovetheceltics** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:28 pm

Barber is a freaking beast.

After Watson's incredible tackle on champ bailey, barber breaking 5 tackles against us to avoid a safety was my favorite hustle play of all time.

i have no ideas why the cowboys have given more carriers to jones than barber.

also one thing, when you watch barber run, don't you find yourself asking, who is feeling more pain- barber or the guy trying to tackle him?

Post #8 » by **Basketball Jesus** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:02 pm

Chach wrote:I guess I'm not just as enamored with Barber. Don't get me wrong, I think he's definitely a solid RB and, in a vacuum, I would be more than happy to have him. But if you have the #2 overall pick in the draft, I want a real impact player.

Barber is better, right now, than any player you will find in the draft. Does McFadden have the potential to be better than him? Maybe. But it's potential. Barber's already guaranteed top production at the NFL level.

I don't feel that Barber is that. He's also a hard charging back and those guys worry me longevity wise. I was a huge Eddie George fan back in the day and he dropped like a **** rock.

Ummm....no. George was a feature back that grinded out yards and was given the ball until his legs fell off. Barber has spent his entire career splitting carries with Julius Jones. Barber hasn't come close to being overworked the way George was earlier in his career. If anything, I'd make the assertion that, because he's split carries earlier in his career, Barber's more likely to have a longer, more productive career. Do you realize he hasn't had over 200 carries in a season?

Plus, there's the running style: Eddie George was a powerful downhill runner that grinded out yards. Barber's quite agile and powerful. That elusiveness makes him as great running outside the tackles as running between the tackles.

One or two injuries add up and with Barber having been in the league for a few years and looking for a long term contract with some guaranteed money, I don't feel 100% confident in sacrificing the potential impact talent the #2 pick could bring for that.

Contract aside (again, it's impossible to trade him at this point), Barber is not only more NFL-ready right now than any back in the draft but he also probably has more potential than anybody except McFadden...and even I think McFadden's a stretch.

Plus, it's not like, in this hypothetical situation, the Patriots are trading out of the first round entirely. They're moving down to the mid-first round AND picking up one of the best backs in the NFL, one that's only 25 years old.

Hell, if he like Barber sign him as a RFA and see if Dallas matches and if they don't, move the #2 pick to someone at 5-6 and pick up some extra picks.

Real-life justification: Tendered RFAs (which I

Post #9 » by **Chach** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:08 pm

Touche, I forgot about the draft pick payments.

I guess the reason I am ambivalent about trading for a RB, no matter how great he is, is that this is a pass first team. Barber may be one of the top RBs in football and with Brady, he'd put up some insane yardage and destroy teams on the goalline, the team is too weak at other spots to ignore them. We need help at LB, at the tackle, in the secondary, etc... In the past week, I've loosened my opinion from 1)we absolutely need to take McFadden to 2)the team is best served if we trade down a bit. If we can trade down to the 5-6 spot and take the best LB or LT in the draft and net extra picks, I'm all over it. We have legit weaknesses on this team that will become even more exploitable next season and I really want to see them take steps to improve those weaknesses. You have a chance to draft and impact player, even at #7, and then fill other holes with whatever other picks you get. It would be a luxury to trade for Barber that I don't think the team can afford long term.

If this were last season when I felt the team had a bit more time to buy in terms of its aging LB corp and I thought the offensive line was good, maybe I'd do the deal. But, then again, last season Barber was still splitting carries with Jones and it's been this season that has really risen his stock. I liked him last season because he a gem in fantasy football but that was the extent of it for me. I also didn't get to watch much football over the last two years, thank you very much UPS. mahalo
~Chach~

alwayslovetheceltics · Post #10 » by **alwayslovetheceltics** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:12 pm

if we got the 2nd pick, how you justify not taking DORSEY? especially if seymour continues to play like ****

Post #11 » by **Chach** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:35 pm

Because we already have four quality defensive linemen, three of which are locked up long term and Wilfork will get an extension in the summer. We also primarily play a 3-4 so having 5 premier linemen is pretty stupid and an unwise investment in cap space. Also, Seymour is coming off a pretty serious surgery and experienced complications so I think he gets a mulligan for the season. I haven't seen many games this season (had to listen to them on the radio at work) but I'd venture to guess he's still seeing quite a few double teams.

Dorsey may go #1 overall so your point is moot anyway. mahalo
~Chach~

alwayslovetheceltics · Post #12 » by **alwayslovetheceltics** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:54 pm

Chach:

Seymour is not seeing many if any double teams this year. he is not able to shed anybody's blocks this year, and yes I know he is coming of an injury so we should be patient. (also, how do we know if he is ever going to recover, and to take a look at the cap, both warren and wilfork are done in 09 right? you think we will keep them both? i hope so but we got the $$$$)

that being said, if Dorsey is there, he brings the most impact
and I don't know about you, but I like the idea of having another star dlineman.

Post #13 » by **Chach** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:15 am

He is coming off a serious knee injury, that would explain why he can't shed blockers. If he isn't as effective as he once was, there's nothing we can do about it because he's here for awhile. Jarvis Green just may get more playing time.

Warren signed an extension that will keep him here through 2013 is signed through 2009 but I expect for a deal to get done this off-season like they did Warren this off-season. Dorsey is a nice player and all but DL is the one spot on the field where we really don't have any concerns with starters or depth. With an aging LB corp and some questions marks at tackle, we are better off trading down with someone who REALLY wants Dorsey and restocking other holes. mahalo
~Chach~

campybatman · Post #14 » by **campybatman** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:37 pm

Belichick tends to prefer veteran players or young players who have been in the league for a while at certain positions. If they were to acquire Barber. It certainly would make a lot sense. If I'm not mistaken, Smith and Dillon were the starting running back for all three Super Bowl runs. Other than playing defense, being able to establish the run is important in the playoffs. Maroney might not be a durable player and having two capable running backs is better than only one. Belichick took this approach with Dillon and Maroney and did so again this season with Maroney and Morris and/or Faulk. Remeber, Brady wouldn't have to pass the ball so much if the team had a legitimate running game. The running game this season has been too inconsistent. You wonder if Maroney is really 100% and the lost of Morris hurt. He was productive.

In my opinion, it's easy to ignore or even forget about running the ball when you've Moss, Stallworth, Welker and Gaffney. But, that doesn't mean you shouldn't run the ball at all.

Barber is just as much of a threat catching the ball as he's running with it. The team would be more balanced on offense if they could run the ball just as well. I've read, too, that Barber is a good blocker. I'm certain Brady would appreciate that if that were a fact.

I don't know what Barber's contract situation is. But, I would imagine if Dallas doesn't plan to sign him long term. I can't see why they wouldn't... If they don't... Dallas might want something for him.

campybatman · Post #15 » by **campybatman** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:42 pm

I just read that Jones will be a free agent at the end of this season. If true, then I suspect Dallas will do what they can to keep Barber long term. Jones has been gradually phased out of the offense this season.