OT: (WARNING) You might be depressed after reading this...

[navysully]

@Jason:

You ever fired an RPG? I have.... multiple times. I assure you that it is accurate. Where are you getting your information from? Want a real life scenario where they worked? Somalia. Black Hawk Down, remember that?

There was reason to believe that the people that were lit up needed to be lit up. You dont have Bradleys and Apaches in one area "just because".... they had just cause to be there. I'd be willing to bet my yearly salary that the guy in the van wasn't just a "good Samaritan" with kids in the car. You are telling me that a country which has been at war for over 4 years, where a man driving down the road just witnessed 30mm round destroy some people drives up to help out? Nobody is that stupid. And yes, kids are sometimes causality of conflict. The insurgents have been using women and children as "cover" from the start. It is the insurgents putting the women and children at risk.. not us.

And you asked about the laughing part. To maintain sanity, you must disassociate the enemy as people. That's why the enemy in iraq is called Haji. That is why the enemy in Germany was called Krauts. That's why the enemy in Vietnam was called Charlie..... etc etc. It's all psychologically based. They took out enemies... and that is that. Sorry bro, but that is war, and unless you've fought I can't begin to make you understand.

[navysully]

I did some research...

The military was involved in the New Baghdad area to clear the area of insurgents as multiple US soldiers had been killed via RPG and small arms fire attacks. All it takes is a little research. So there was an active operation going on... when that is done, it is put on loudspeaker to clear the streets if you want to stay alive. What do you think the guys in the street in this video were doing? Found a nice breakdown here:

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... -anti.html

Tons of evidence to show RPG's and heavy machine guns.... the insurgents knew what they were doing. Pay particular attention to the van everyone keeps talking about.

Later.

[DBrimstone]

Navysully, sorry they ignore the fact that you were actually wounded in combat and that you were actually there and that you actually know what you're talking about and that you've actually had to obey rules of engagement. You'd think they'd realize that you would have to know them inside and out before being allowed into a combat zone.

It's too bad the media leaves out details of using woman and children as cover from the beginning of the war, or that you never knew if a civilian you let past your column would show up a day later shooting RPG's at you from behind, or that you can't differentiate a combatant from a civilian until they start actually shooting. But hey, whatever helps them make the US military look like a bunch of brutes who enjoy killing. They never bother to mention the psychological issues in play with taking another humans life, no matter how just the cause.

[SUNSARETHEBEST]

People are surprised by this? This has been going on for decades now. We have no business and reason for even being in that country or anyother one. Bring the troops home and put them on the border WHERE THEY SHOULD be.

[Frank Lee]

Good insight Sully, many factors contribute to an engagement and it is easy to react on the 'surface level'. What we expect our troops to do on a regular basis can not be imagined by those of us with limited experience in the field of war. I still respectfully remain against the killing of noncombatives, regardless of the circumstances.

I am tired of war... we have been killing innocent people for too long. I cannot imagine the grief and anger felt by those who have lost loved ones who were simply collateral damage or out and out military mistakes. It is unavoidable....yet completely unnecessary if we would demand Congress declare war before we actually get in one. This preemptive bull has no end and jeopardizes innocents on both sides. The Iraq vets I personally know have been deeply effected by their tours in that hell hole.

bring the troops home and put them on the border WHERE THEY SHOULD be.

How can anyone argue with that ?

[lilfishi22]

I'm not a supporter of the war but I do have respect for soldiers and the sacrifice they make even though I despise what they are ordered to do. For most of us, the closest we'll ever get to knowing what goes on in the battlefield is through the news media but what they rarely, if ever, go inside the mind of the soldiers and discuss the fact that they have to make split second decisions to protect themselves and eliminate possible threats.

Even though I'm not American, we have soldiers in the Middle East as well so I do appreciate the sacrifice our soldiers make to protect us.

[Wormwood74]

OK... everyone who's had time in theater, raise your hand....

OK, so I'm actually qualified to comment.

Here's the facts:

1. US troops nearby had been engaged with insurgents for several hours.

2. The group of people you see in the video is clearly armed and not civilian. They are all male, for one. Secondly, if you watch the short version video provided by wikileaks at the 3:45 mark one of the men turns, and the RPG he is carrying is clearly silhouetted. The image is clear enough that I can even tell you that the variant he's carrying is probably the Iranian manufactured extended warhead variant.

3. ROE has changed since Mogadishu. The Black Hawk Down incident saw a similar situation where masses of combatants mustered in large groups based on what loudspeakers on minarets were telling them to do. We were not allowed to fire on them because they both used women and children as shields, but also because the ROE did not permit us to fire on people unless they were already shooting at us. In this case, there were no people who were obviously civilians, they were heavily armed in a manner inconsistent with what a civilian in Iraq might be expected to carry (each house is allowed 1 AK-47 for self protection, not RPGs)

4. In the aftermath, 2 or 3 RPGs are visible lying near the bodies.

5. Photographers and interpreters get killed by both sides. Care to take a guess how many have been killed by insurgents?

6. In the past, local stringers ave been playing both sides. Take photos for the western media (like the one next to the burning vehicle), and providing video and photos to the insurgents they follow around for them to use in their own propaganda.

Based on my background, I can tell you that the mosque they were nearby was likely broadcasting instructions to the militiamen in the street. I also can tell you they were probably Sadrist militia, especially based on the presence of an Iranian made RPG. Yes, there were a pair of Reuter's stringers in the middle of the crowd. However, that crowd was heavily armed and advancing on US Troops in Contact (TIC). There were no obvious civilians in the group (women, children).

Note that Hotel-Two Seven (the other Apache) observed the people from the van picking up weapons and putting them in the van. This instantly made them fair game under ROE (designates them as combatants).

If the Apache drivers had seen the kids, it would have instantly made them weapons tight. We've see this in Afghanistan where insurgents pay kids to play around them when they're up to stuff, because they know our ROE.

This group of men the reporters were with were insurgents, and they met the rules for engagement. They had RPG's. If any of you have seen what RPGs do to people inside of Bradleys or Hummers, it's every bit as bad as what happened to the people hit by the Apache. These guys were going after our troops, and it was going to be them or us in the final tally.

If you stand around with combatants in the middle of a firefight, you're a target. That's why embedded reporters with US troops wear full protective gear, and often that's still not enough.

The ROE are designed to protect civilians: read up on troop and enemy reactions to the ROE when we went into Marjah. The vast majority of civilian casualties in Afghanistan are caused by the Taliban, not the NATO coalition, according to the U.N.'s own statistics.

I can tell you flat out: no one I ever worked with was sick enough to deliberately target kids. If those kids had been out where they were clearly visible, this would not have happened.

[Shooly]

The Slight of Hand at Wiki Leak and the Missing 20 Minutes of Video

This is what Wiki Leaks is calling the "full video" of the incident that they describe as the "murder" of "civilians killed in Baghdad".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik

Video that is causing outrage in Europe, Islamic countries, and among the American Left. The "full video" is nearly 40 minutes long.

Besides being dishonest about this being footage of mass "murder" and of those killed being "civilians", Wiki Leak is also being dishonest about this being the "full video". It's not. The so-called "full video" is missing 20 minutes of footage.

The editors of Wiki Leak are one part magician and one part defense lawyer. Like a good defense lawyer they are careful never to lie outright; just the convenient omissions coupled with spin which make innocent parties look guilty, and the guilty innocent.

Like a polished magician they want you to look at one hand -- the journalists, the casual manner in which the insurgents are talking to one another, the brutality of death in war, the wounded children -- so that your eyes are distracted from the hand which holds that which is important that you not see in order for the illusion to be complete -- the insurgent with an AK-47, the insurgent with a loaded RPG, the insurgent carrying a spare RPG round, firefights happening near the scene, the convoy which the Reuters cameraman is aiming his lens while surrounded by insurgents, the expressions of anger by the soldiers that insurgents had brought children to the area, the rescue of the children and their evacuation to two US bases for treatment.

But among the many glaring omissions in their perverse and evil slight of hand magic trick which is their narrative of innocence massacred, one sticks out more than anything else: 20 minutes of missing video.

What was on the video? Here's a key bit from a sworn statement about that days firefights which might shed some light:

While team was providing security for H26 at the first engagement area H26 informed the team that they were recieving small arms fire from the S/SW and wanted to team to recon the area for AIF. CZ18 then located 5xAIF with AK-47's and 1xRPG. Team was given clearance to engage by H26. I then observed a child and some other noncombatants in the vicinity of the AIF so decided to hold off on the engagement until the non-combatants were clear. After the non-combatants were clear CZ18 the engaged the AIF with 20x30mm. There were 2 possible WIA and I observed the individuals run into a large multistory building. The team then searched the area for more AIF. CZ19 reported a red SUV that has possible AIF in it and team followed and observed the vehicle but could not get PID on any weapons. The team then returned to the engagement area.

This is not shown on the video, but the next segment in the statement is where the video seems to picks up -- the engagement of Mahdi Army terrorists holed up in a building with 3 hellfire missiles:

Upon arrivai I observed building was a 4 story building that looked abandoned and half finished and possibly still under construction. We then asked H26 for clearance to engage the building with hellfire missiles. H26 granted the team clearance to fire. The team proceeded to engage the building with 3 hellfire missiles. CZ18 fired 1xK2 and 1xN missiles. CZ19 fired 1xN missile. There were approximately 10 AIF KIA during this engagement. Team then did BHO with CZ03/04 because the team needed to refuel at the FARP.

When children were observed near AIF (anti-Iraqi Forces) they chose to hold fire --> Not shown on video.

A vehicle that might have carried AIF in it was not fired on --> Not shown on video.

Like the 18 minutes of audio "accidentally" erased from the Nixon tapes, I find it awfully convenient that the so-called "full 40 minute video" that Wiki Leak provides also has a 20 minute gap. A 20 minute gap that would seem to run counter to the narrative of cowboy soldiers shooting at everything and every one in the neighborhood, even children.

So, is Wiki Leak lying about this being all the video they received? It matters little, because it's obvious that even the "full video" was edited to paint the US and its soldiers in the worst possible light.

If Wiki Leak didn't do it, then somebody did. That somebody has an axe to grind. And it may explain why the DOD can no longer find the original video in its archives.