Is Yao considered a bust?

[_Max]

08-09 Regular Season

Code: Select all

Name           MPG  PPG   FGA   TS%  On/Off  DrawF  OWS  AST% ORPG  ORB%  PER   

Dwight Howard  35.7 20.7  12.5  60%  +7.6    27.6%  6.2  7.3   3.6  13.8  25.4     

Yao Ming       33.6 19.7  14.3  62%  +5.6    14.3%  5.6  10.0  2.6   9.6  22.7 

Team offensive ranks

Orlando 11th

Houston 15th

Code: Select all

Name             DRPG  DRB%   BPG   DRTG    DWS    Awards   All-defensive teams

Dwight Howard    9.6   29.5   2.9     95    7.6     DPOY        First-team           

Yao Ming         7.2   24.1   1.9    101    5.0                               

Team defensive ranks

Orlando 1st

Houston 4th


08-09 Playoff Stats

Code: Select all

Name           MPG   PPG   RPG   TS%    APG   BPG  PER   

Dwight Howard  39.3  20.3  15.3  63.4%  1.9   2.6  25.5     

Yao Ming       35.9  17.1  10.9  63.4%  1.0   1.2  21.5 

09-10 Regular Season

Orlando's offense is ranked 2nd this year.

Orlando's defense is ranked 1st this year.

Dwight Howard will be DPOY.

Dwight Howard will be the first player in NBA history to lead the league in RPG AND BPG in consecutive seasons. (If he adds FG%, then he'll be the first player to ever lead the league in rebounds, blocks, and FG% in the same year)

On a side note

Dwight Howard's rebounding surpasses anything Yao brings to the table.

1) Howard is the first player in NBA history to lead the league in TOTAL REBOUNDS for 5 consecutive seasons.

2) Howard joins the company of Kevin Garnett, Dennis Rodman, Moses Malone, Bill Russell, and Wilt as the only players to lead the league in RPG for 3 consecutive seasons.

Advanced Statistics

1) Howard has the third highest career TRB% of all time. (behind Rodman and Swen Nater)
2) Howard has the highest career playoff TRB% of all time.
3) Howard has the 4th highest career DRB% of all time. (behind Rodman, Walton, and Nater)
4) Howard has the highest career playoff DRB% of all time.
5) Howard has the 13th highest career RPG of all time.
6) Howard has the 3rd highest career playoff RPG of all time. (behind Wilt and Russell)

If all this doesn't tell you Dwight Howard is clearly better than I don't know what will.

1) Can Howard shoot FT's at 84.5% clip?
2) Does Howard command a double team on every single possession?

I really don't think people realize how insanely good a health Yao Ming is at basketball. The man is completely utterly unstoppable and demands a double team from 25 or so teams in the NBA.

Come on every single possession is a stretch...but when healthy yao commanded doubles and i have yet to see a game when dwight wasn't doubled constantly

Then I seriously suggest you go back and watch some of the Rockets vs. Magic games from before this season.

[TMU]

j-far has already provided the numbers. Howard averages 12.2 ppg with 45% shooting against Yao. In other words, Howard simply doesn't match up well against Yao.

The team rankings don't matter. They indicate that Orlando is a better than Houston as a team. They're irrelevant to the H2H discussion.

[_Max]

It's quite ironic that when Dwight fans are arguing for Dwight's case as MVP, they talk about defense and the intangibles that aren't shown in statistics (compared to scoring and assists etc, a la Lebron), but when arguing Dwight vs. Yao they keep bringing up the stats like rebounds, blocks, etc, and cite these as the indicator that Dwight is a much superior defender.

Dwight is a phenomonal rebounder, that's true. However, his blocks don't mean that he's a far superior defender than Yao. They only mean that Dwight is much more athletic and a better help defender (which is mostly due to his athleticism). Dwight's post defense, however, has absolutely nothing on Yao. The head2head numbers are the most direct indicators of comparison we have, and Yao clearly dominates almost every matchup. This means that Yao does an excellent job of defending Dwight, while Dwight does a poor job of defending Yao.

Yao is a superior offfensive player by a large margin, this much is certain. His shooting touch, his hookshots, especially his FT (I cringe everytime I see Dwight shoot a freethrow). His biggest weakness is that he gets shut down by fronting, and he can't easily catch lob passes due to his short arms (relative to his height) and lack of athleticism. However, I believe that beating fronting is a team effort, not an individual effort. When a perimeter player tries to pass the ball to Yao at 45° and Yao gets fronted, the correct play is for the perimeter player to pass it to whoever is at the top of the key, while Yao moves laterally towards the middle of the paint. Since his defender was fronting him, he is now completely out of position while Yao is open about 3 or 4 feet away from the basket. And if someone comes to help from the other side, then guess what, Yao just drew a double without even touching the ball. Sadly, I've only seen this play executed succesfully less than 10 times.

To the OP: Yao's career is far from finished. He's never really relied on athleticism, and at worst he'll play 15-20 mins per game as a Z type player. That's still better than most of the backup Cs in the league today.

[nesta]

Yao is not a bust

Also on the other topic of Dwight vs Yao; Dwight is an easier player to build around and is more injury free. He's also a legit defensive anchor backed up by his DPOY. When they both get in foul trouble, Howard is more effective as Yao softens up more than Howard. As much as Yao is better than Howard at offense, Howard impacts the game much more in other parts of the game....Except for international basketball, where the refs hate Howard

NBA:Howard>Yao
International:Yao>Howard

Its always the refs that decide whos the better player

[Schad]

Look, a lot of people saw the potential for Yao to have problems with lower body injuries from the day he was drafted; it's the unfortunate side effect of carrying around 330 pounds on a 7'6" frame. But even if his career were to end today, 476 games at 19/9 with very good defense is not a bust.

[93 Phillies]

head to head stats are overrated. sometimes you can matchup poorly with a guy who is worse than you.

[Slava]

head to head stats are overrated. sometimes you can matchup poorly with a guy who is worse than you.

Not when said players are both superstars and the head 2 head numbers absolutely count when the disparity is as huge as it is in this match up.

[Slava]

When healthy he's easily a top 5 player in the league but certainly not a guy I'd give max money when his next contract comes up.

I'm guessing you failed economics.

Yeah he does bring in a great amount of revenue but still if you sign him to a 5 year contract like he might demand now are you sure he will certainly fulfill the period of the contract?

Basketball wise there has absolutely been no continuity in Houston ever since they paired Yao and T-Mac together.

[Slava]

I'd love to here the argument. I hope it isn't based off anything but head2head numbers.

How many times has Yao been to the finals?

You're a funny dude.

[Official]

Head2Head is dumb. Since, Head2Head Vince Carter is nearly equivalent to Kobe Bryant. Anyhow, people have no statistics to back up their wild claims of

Yao is better offensively? Based on what? Dwight Howard averaged more PPG in the regular season and most importantly in the playoffs. Hell, in the playoffs Dwight averaged more APG.

Yao is a better post defender? Based on what? Yao is better at defending large players like Shaq and Dwight Howard, but he isn't any better at defending Duncan, Bynum, or the majority of NBA players.

Yao Ming draws more double teams? Seriously? Are we really going to use that argument against Dwight Howard? The guy is easily top 5 in demanding double teams.

[raps4life~]

One of the top centers of all time is a bust? Ok.

All time? I don't think so.

Hes one of the best in league when he is playing. He would probably be considered "better" than Dwight if he was an iron man, but with all the injuries he is probably locked into the second best slot.

Wouldn't you say Yao is atleast top 25 all-time?

[Prolific Scorer]

I'd love to here the argument. I hope it isn't based off anything but head2head numbers.

How many times has Yao been to the finals?

You're a funny dude.

Reading comprehension ftw.

You totally took that out of context, he meant there isn't any real evidence of Yao > Dwight other than H2H.

The team rankings don't matter. They indicate that Orlando is a better than Houston as a team. They're irrelevant to the H2H discussion.

It doesn't? Why? Because you said so?

Horrible post.

Dwight just took a team with Rashard Lewis as his #2 option and a backcourt of Courtney Lee and Rafer Alston to the NBA Finals. Yao had a bonefied superstar in Tracy McGrady and still couldn't get out of the first round. Period.

[noobcake]

Head2Head is dumb. Since, Head2Head Vince Carter is nearly equivalent to Kobe Bryant. Anyhow, people have no statistics to back up their wild claims of

Yao is better offensively? Based on what? Dwight Howard averaged more PPG in the regular season and most importantly in the playoffs. Hell, in the playoffs Dwight averaged more APG.

lol

Yao is a better post defender? Based on what? Yao is better at defending large players like Shaq and Dwight Howard, but he isn't any better at defending Duncan, Bynum, or the majority of NBA players.

Arguable, but Yao is pretty much better at defending every single true C in the league. It those quicker PF like Al and Boozer's that torch him

Yao Ming draws more double teams? Seriously? Are we really going to use that argument against Dwight Howard? The guy is easily top 5 in demanding double teams.

lol

Two of your questions don't need answers

[tsherkin]

The most overriding concern here is that Yao isn't healthy and Dwight is. At the end of the day, that's the only thing of consequence in this discussion. Yao was as healthy as an ox for three seasons when he was playing 29-33 mpg...

And since then, he's played 57, 48, 55, 77 and 0 games. One season with more than 57 games played in the last half-decade and he's going to be 30 next year, with slim prospects of getting a lot healthier. Though there's the possibility he might get healthy like Ilgauskas, Big Z has stayed that way largely because he's played mostly 25-30 mpg.

When healthy, Yao has proven to be a more prolific scorer. He's a better FT shooter with a jumper that has some range to it. He's got basic post moves. He hangs around Dwight's overall efficiency because he's an outstanding FT shooter (not just for a big but in general). He draws FTAs reasonably well, too, in the Duncan/Garnett range, sort of 6-7 FTA/g. That's pretty good.

He's an underwhelming but competent rebounder and an unimpressive passer... but his passing is somewhat underrepresented because he played for Van Gundy for so long.

He's a good defender, among the best in the league when he's healthy. He shouldn't be taking charges, IMO, but that's a function of coaching and he's been biddable to his coach, which is a good thing. He's a solid shot-blocker. Nothing special, but still good.

Is Yao better? He's a more skilled player on offense, that's for sure. He produces a few more points per game because he can get more shots per game (some of which is by coaching design, some by type of skils). He doesn't exert the same kind of pressure in terms of fouls-drawn, though, and that's an unquestionably valuable attribute of Dwight's offensive game, and the differential in rebounding and help defense certainly favors Dwight.

If I were to choose, I wouldn't hesitate in selecting Dwight.

But there is another comment that must be made; based on the production and results of Yao's play when he's been healthy, I'm inclined to say that he's the superior center. The Rockets didn't do a wonderful job of assembling a good team around him or getting him a sensible coach. They defended well, but they were rarely in touch with what they needed to be doing on offense, their second (or first, if you prefer) star was frequently injured and they didn't have a particularly good bench.

The Magic, by contrast, have a clear offensive scheme and a host of players who've fit well into that scheme, and a coach who has a nice balance between offensive and defensive sets. Stan Van Gundy is a MUCH better coach than Jeff... JVG is a great analyst and a very good defensive coach but he's almost brain-dead where offense is concerned and that's been true his entire career.

I don't believe in Yao; I don't think his body will hold up. Dual committments to the NBA and the Chinese national team every summer were definitely at odds. His physical proportions are not conducive to long-term health, either; there aren't many guys over 7'2 who stayed healthy for long.

So again, I think Yao would be the better player if he could stay healthy, he's been basically a non-factor for a half-decade and he's going to hit 30 when he plays his next season (providing his career isn't over), so I don't think it's relevant to discuss him in terms of the centers in the league right now. 50-ish games a season don't make you the best center. If he were playing 60, 65 games a season, it'd be different, but he's playing only a little more than half the season a lot of the time (or lately, missing it outright) and that's just not enough for a team to compete on. He's got a real Bill Walton feel to him...

Underappreciated because he's never on the damned court, lol. But Yao's definitely a wicked talent when he's actually playing.

[Official]

How is Yao are superior center when he is worse at rebounding, worse at defense, and worse in raw ppg the last time both were healthy?

Furthermore, the 04-05 to 06-07 Yao Ming had a 25/5/5 Tracy McGrady on his team. And a 27/7/7 player in the playoffs. If that can't get you out of the first round then I don't know what will. Most of all, Yao Ming is the one who blew game 7 in Utah. The Guy let the jazz get two offensive rebounds in the final minutes of game 7, which was the Rockets undoing in that series outside of their supporting cast. Ultimately Yao had 6rpg in game 6 and game 7 of that series. That type of production from a center against the lacks of Okur is pathetic. Don't even begin to blame that type of crap on coaching and teammates.

[Transistor]

Safe to say Yao isin't a bust

Between expectations and actual performance, Darko and Kwame are busts. Yao is far from that

Interesting how the Rockets will look next year w/ him back

[Ming Kong!]

One of the top centers of all time is a bust? Ok.

All time? I don't think so.

Hes one of the best in league when he is playing. He would probably be considered "better" than Dwight if he was an iron man, but with all the injuries he is probably locked into the second best slot.

Wouldn't you say Yao is atleast top 25 all-time?

I don't even think he is top 25.

Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Robinson
Mikan
Ewing
Howard
Olajuwon
Reed
Parish
Walton
Moses
Mutombo
Unseld
Thurmond
McAdoo
Bellamy
Gilmore
Schayes (F/C)
Lucas (F/C)
Cowens
Haywood (F/C)
Hayes (F/C)
Mourning

I mean we are considering he's only played 4 full seasons, then 3 seasons were he's played 50-70% of the games, and this year he missed the whole year. 481 games over 8 years @ 19.1ppg 9.3rpg 1.9bpg is not that impressive for a 7 footer, not to mention that his numbers are likely to start declining if he ever suits up again.

[tsherkin]

How is Yao are superior center when he is worse at rebounding, worse at defense, and worse in raw ppg the last time both were healthy?

The last time both players were healthy was last season... when Yao averaged 22 ppg... which is higher than Dwight's career-best seasonal scoring average. Come again?

Furthermore, the 04-05 to 06-07 Yao Ming had a 25/5/5 Tracy McGrady on his team. And a 27/7/7 player in the playoffs.

And in that time, T-Mac played 78, 47, 71, 66 and 35 games. He hasn't been healthy.

And behind them? You're talking a mix of Mutombo's re-animated corpse, Bob Sura, Mike James, Jon Barry, Juwan Howard... etc, etc.

People moaning about Yao's rebounding numbers need to remember he's 7'6... after a certain point, there are diminishing returns to rebounding where height is concerned because excessive height limits mobility.

Pro tip: of all the players 7'3+ or better that have played in the NBA/BAA or the ABA, there have been only 37 instances of a player recording a season of 7+ rpg over 50+ games.

We're looking at Mark Eaton, Arvydas Sabonis, Shawn Bradley, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Rik Smits, Yao, Gheorge Muresan and Ralph Sampson.

Now narrow it down to 9+. Yao has 3 of the 11 seasons recorded where a guy that big rebounded like that.

Mark Eaton wasn't any better a rebounder than Yao; Yao is in fact a better rebounder at both ends of the floor than Eaton, comparable to Ralph Sampson (the two guys who have most of those 11 seasons, 5 of them combined). Sabonis was a better defensive rebounder but worse on the offensive glass... and 2 or 3 inches shorter. Muresan was better on the offensive glass and a little worse on the defensive glass by rate, but peaked at 29.5 mpg and his career ended due to injury (like Sampson). Big Z is a much better offensive rebounder, much worse defensive rebounder, and 3 inches shorter.

Here's some fun: 50+ games, 7'5+, 9+ rpg? Yao's three seasons and Gheorge Muresan.

Quit complaining about his rebounding. Yes, it isn't as good as Dwight's. Yes, he's the best rebounder of his size the league has ever seen, and it relates to mobility.

Yes, Dwight gets more rebounds per game. No, he's not considerably better on defense. Yes, Dwight's offense is a little worse than Yao's because Yao can score more reliably.

Yao's team last year made the second round. The key contributors, other than himself, were Luis Scola, Ron Artest, Aaron Brooks, Von Wafer, Shane Battier, Carl Landry, Kyle Lowry and Chuck Hayes. Stop me when I get to a really good second star. Or was Artest's 47% playoff TS so scintillating that you really look at those 15.6 ppg he scored as a positive to the team? If Yao hadn't gone down 9 games into the playoffs, the Rockets might have beaten the Lakers, whom they took to 7 games anyhow.

Yeah, Dwight's amazing. He's one of my favorite players in the league right now. Yes, Dwight rebounds better and blocks more shots than Yao. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a more valuable player.

IMO, Yao's still an elite defender, a comparably efficient but more prolific scorer and still a good rebounder and that makes him better than Dwight. By a small margin, but a visible one.

[Rallyks]

How is Yao are superior center when he is worse at rebounding, worse at defense, and worse in raw ppg the last time both were healthy?

Yao > Dwight when healthy. you guys don't seem realize that a players overall impact goes far beyond 'numbers.'

Furthermore, the 04-05 to 06-07 Yao Ming had a 25/5/5 Tracy McGrady on his team. And a 27/7/7 player in the playoffs. If that can't get you out of the first round then I don't know what will. Most of all, Yao Ming is the one who blew game 7 in Utah. The Guy let the jazz get two offensive rebounds in the final minutes of game 7, which was the Rockets undoing in that series outside of their supporting cast. Ultimately Yao had 6rpg in game 6 and game 7 of that series. That type of production from a center against the lacks of Okur is pathetic. Don't even begin to blame that type of crap on coaching and teammates.

I agree, Yao was awful in a couple of those playoff games... but that was 4-5 years ago, and in my opinion, Yao of 08-09 > Yao 04-05 (unless you blindly look at his #'s)

and a couple of playoff gaffs, early in your career, doesn't suddenly make you a bad player.

but it's irrelevant, he lead the rockets to the 2nd round last year, with a 20 mill hole in their playoff roster.

[Kariya]

How is Yao are superior center when he is worse at rebounding, worse at defense, and worse in raw ppg the last time both were healthy?

The last time both players were healthy was last season... when Yao averaged 22 ppg... which is higher than Dwight's career-best seasonal scoring average. Come again?

Furthermore, the 04-05 to 06-07 Yao Ming had a 25/5/5 Tracy McGrady on his team. And a 27/7/7 player in the playoffs.

And in that time, T-Mac played 78, 47, 71, 66 and 35 games. He hasn't been healthy.

And behind them? You're talking a mix of Mutombo's re-animated corpse, Bob Sura, Mike James, Jon Barry, Juwan Howard... etc, etc.

People moaning about Yao's rebounding numbers need to remember he's 7'6... after a certain point, there are diminishing returns to rebounding where height is concerned because excessive height limits mobility.

Pro tip: of all the players 7'3+ or better that have played in the NBA/BAA or the ABA, there have been only 37 instances of a player recording a season of 7+ rpg over 50+ games.

We're looking at Mark Eaton, Arvydas Sabonis, Shawn Bradley, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Rik Smits, Yao, Gheorge Muresan and Ralph Sampson.

Now narrow it down to 9+. Yao has 3 of the 11 seasons recorded where a guy that big rebounded like that.

Mark Eaton wasn't any better a rebounder than Yao; Yao is in fact a better rebounder at both ends of the floor than Eaton, comparable to Ralph Sampson (the two guys who have most of those 11 seasons, 5 of them combined). Sabonis was a better defensive rebounder but worse on the offensive glass... and 2 or 3 inches shorter. Muresan was better on the offensive glass and a little worse on the defensive glass by rate, but peaked at 29.5 mpg and his career ended due to injury (like Sampson). Big Z is a much better offensive rebounder, much worse defensive rebounder, and 3 inches shorter.

Here's some fun: 50+ games, 7'5+, 9+ rpg? Yao's three seasons and Gheorge Muresan.

Quit complaining about his rebounding. Yes, it isn't as good as Dwight's. Yes, he's the best rebounder of his size the league has ever seen, and it relates to mobility.

Yes, Dwight gets more rebounds per game. No, he's not considerably better on defense. Yes, Dwight's offense is a little worse than Yao's because Yao can score more reliably.

Yao's team last year made the second round. The key contributors, other than himself, were Luis Scola, Ron Artest, Aaron Brooks, Von Wafer, Shane Battier, Carl Landry, Kyle Lowry and Chuck Hayes. Stop me when I get to a really good second star. Or was Artest's 47% playoff TS so scintillating that you really look at those 15.6 ppg he scored as a positive to the team? If Yao hadn't gone down 9 games into the playoffs, the Rockets might have beaten the Lakers, whom they took to 7 games anyhow.

Yeah, Dwight's amazing. He's one of my favorite players in the league right now. Yes, Dwight rebounds better and blocks more shots than Yao. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a more valuable player.

IMO, Yao's still an elite defender, a comparably efficient but more prolific scorer and still a good rebounder and that makes him better than Dwight. By a small margin, but a visible one.

Win