Bruce Arthur: Glass half full analysis of Andrea

[Courtside]

If Bargnani can only perform at a top level when he has the majority of plays run for him and commands the most touches, what makes things any different for us than they are now with Bosh?

The difference is that Bargs will be making $10 mil as opposed to $20 mil and that money could/should be used elsewhere on the roster. If DeRozan doesn't make a jump next year, then perhaps use it on a shooting guard. Aside from salary, there would be little concern about needing to feed his ego and/or lose him down the road. I don't think he cares about being 'the man' or getting face time on ESPN.

As for on-court differences, the ball would move more and we could/should return to a ball movement, balanced attack like we had in 07-08. I know Bosh can score on isos. but they kill our flow and take everyone out of the game. They're easy to defend and really, only a guard with good handles should be used as an iso player. We've seen his passing abilities only in spurts, but he is a better ball handler and passer than Bosh, which is something you want out of your main option.

Defense is where it has to happen for this team to have any success post-Bosh. I think that if Bosh does go, Bargs has to skip playing for Italy and work out with NBA big men, go to Newell's camp, whatever - but he has to get his head around being even more accountable. The help D has to improve and the rebounding has to switch from boxing-to-help-a teammate-get-it to box-and-get-the-damn-ball-myself. He deferred to Bosh on O and I think he somewhat deferred with Dreb as well - which is clearly wrong - but he knew that Bosh got to eat first.

Perhaps a purge of the Bosh-first mindset not only helps Bargs, but the team as well. The coaching staff will be forced to be more adaptive and if Calderon is around, he won't get have Bosh to play the weak pnr game with. Turkoglu gets to be more impactful (if kept around as well) and ideally - there's a PF who can rebound and play D alongside in the frontcourt. I'm not sure Amir is capable of permanent starter minutes, but if he can play a Rodman role next to Bargs, it could just work.

Bargs isn't a #1 option, but he could thrive as the team's top scoring big. If Andrea's sticks around we need a goto guard or wing. BC ####ed up not getting Bosh one so don't make the same mistake again or the results will be even worse.

Agreed. Ideally Bargs is the primary scoring big, but the secondary option overall - behind a guard. I'm not sure about Derozan - he seems too McGrady like still - but would getting a Carter (or any starting guard in front of him) perhaps stunt his growth?

[99 Problems]

It'll be interesting to see what happens with him next season... He'll be forced to shoulder a lot of the burden, and pushed to the forefront... He won't have Bosh to rely on, or anywhere to hide...

Its sink or swim.... He either has to turn super saijain or just collapse like a house of cards..

[Kabookalu]

Whether or not a Princeton offence will do that, I'm not sure. Mostly because I'm still unsure as to exactly how it works (something with a lot screens or something, my friend hastily explained it to me once).

My coach explained it to me once, I never fully grasped the concept, but the main key to running the princeton offense is that you have a team full of willing passers who can move off the ball well. The key here is not to just have players with high basketball IQ, but players that are willing to pass the ball. I believe the Sixers are trying to run it, but fail because their team doesn't have the right amount of high basketball IQ players.

The question is do we? I've always held the opinion that Bargnani sees the floor well. Amir Johnson is a very underrated passer. Hedo Turkoglu has experience playing in it. Of course it's not a problem for Jack and Calderon. Belinelli might actually thrive since he not only sees the floor well, but he's great at moving without the ball. Bosh has a high basketball IQ himself. The two players that I can see suffering the most is DeRozan and Weems, though as long as the other players playing beside them get it, I think for the most part they can be compensated for.

Not that I would want to switch up the system, because it can go really well for us, or it can be really bad. In the end though, whatever gains we gain upon implementing the offense won't be enough to cover the grounds the defense will leave.

[Courtside]

Bosh has a high basketball IQ himself.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this - but perhaps we ran a simple offense not just because of supposed dumb players like Bargs - but because Bosh didn't work well in a complex system. He takes too long to decide what to do and often isn't ready for passes that weren't planned beforehand. Maybe we had to keep it simple for him?

[Dam]

No...bargs isn't 1op.

And as you know i'm a bargs fans (no Raps fans).

[I.D.]

Until Bargnani shows some willingess or ability to do what a NBA starting center needs to do for his team to win, I'm not sold on him as part of my starting roster. Regardless of salary, who else is on the team, what our organizational goals are or anything really.

He's had four years to show even the slightest incling of knowing how to cut off driving lanes, use his size to discourage offenses from attacking the rim, using his fouls productively to send messages, dive for loose balls, or at the very least bring a consistent effort for the majority of an NBA season. In my mind this has absolutely nothing to do with any of the other four players on the floor who I am equally critical of.

Is he talented? Yes. But there are a hell of a lot of talented players in the League. Have been. I've heard this story before and I'm sorry I don't think he's very special. I might be wrong, oh well, wouldn't be the first time, but that's how I see it.

As for the whole "Franchise player" vs "Five all-stars" thing that's been going around here, where to begin? First, Bargnani is, when given the opportunity a high volume shooter, the problem is he can't create his shot and so it can get ugly on nights where he isn't hitting the shots he's taking because there is absolutely no flow to the offense. One and done. Contrast this with Chris Bosh who is a very efficient scorer who can create his own offense and you will start to recognize why our offense is designed the way it is with these two players as our best offensive weapons. There isn't much more too it. If we had a Derrek Rose or any guard who could break his man down off the dribble (see TJ) our offense looks different (see 06-07).

There is no difference to the critical eye between building around a star and building a balanced multi-talented roster. The difference between the 09-10 Raptors and the 04 Pistons is that they had four guys on their roster who would nearly look like Bosh on our team. And they were gonna have to pay those guys either way. When you get all-star level talent you have to pay them accordingly, regardless of how many all-stars you have. What I'm trying to say is Bosh is the first piece of that talented puzzle and we **** it up. Now he's going to get paid and we don't have much to show for the time we didn't have to dish out 20 mil for the guy. We failed to build the 04 Pistons team already, THAT is what we're dealing with. There is no different model, you try and get the best players you can, the Pistons difference is they didn't draft a budding super star, that's about it.

As for Bargnani he is not even a reset, he's one year younger than Bosh and significantly less productive/effective. So I'm sorry if I can't take too much positives out of a significant roster downgrade. Or even contemplating the idea of letting the same group of clowns who just messed up building a talented roster, when given one peice to start with, fail to do so again but with zero pieces this time. Hooray, can't wait. Just for the record I don't think we go into rebuilding mode if Bosh leaves anyway, the question then becomes where does Colangelo get that dynamic peice to run our engine now? And who is going to hand that to him? Ironically it seems for the "build a balanced team" truthers, our best chance to realise their goal is draft a budding super star. Oh but then are we building "With" or "Around"? I'm so confused.

[Kabookalu]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this - but perhaps we ran a simple offense not just because of supposed dumb players like Bargs - but because Bosh didn't work well in a complex system. He takes too long to decide what to do and often isn't ready for passes that weren't planned beforehand. Maybe we had to keep it simple for him?

The "watch Bosh hold onto the ball for 4 seconds" offense is the main reason why I'm always criticizing him as a first option player. But like a highlighted in another topic, a lot of people mistake decision making with actual basketball IQ. I believe that Bosh has a very high basketball IQ, but doesn't have the necessary decision making to really be able to shoulder the offense the way Wade or LeBron does. He sees the floor well, he just doesn't always make the right decisions.

However, in a system like the princeton offense, he won't really be making passes out of his own judgment, but passes that are there produced by the offense...if that makes any sense.

[tetley]

Until Bargnani shows some willingess or ability to do what a NBA starting center needs to do for his team to win, I'm not sold on him as part of my starting roster. Regardless of salary, who else is on the team, what our organizational goals are or anything really.

He's had four years to show even the slightest incling of knowing how to cut off driving lanes, use his size to discourage offenses from attacking the rim, using his fouls productively to send messages, dive for loose balls, or at the very least bring a consistent effort for the majority of an NBA season. In my mind this has absolutely nothing to do with any of the other four players on the floor who I am equally critical of.

Is he talented? Yes. But there are a hell of a lot of talented players in the League. Have been. I've heard this story before and I'm sorry I don't think he's very special. I might be wrong, oh well, wouldn't be the first time, but that's how I see it.

As for the whole "Franchise player" vs "Five all-stars" thing that's been going around here, where to begin? First, Bargnani is, when given the opportunity a high volume shooter, the problem is he can't create his shot and so it can get ugly on nights where he isn't hitting the shots he's taking because there is absolutely no flow to the offense. One and done. Contrast this with Chris Bosh who is a very efficient scorer who can create his own offense and you will start to recognize why our offense is designed the way it is with these two players as our best offensive weapons. There isn't much more too it. If we had a Derrek Rose or any guard who could break his man down off the dribble (see TJ) our offense looks different (see 06-07).

There is no difference to the critical eye between building around a star and building a balanced multi-talented roster. The difference between the 09-10 Raptors and the 04 Pistons is that they had four guys on their roster who would nearly look like Bosh on our team. And they were gonna have to pay those guys either way. When you get all-star level talent you have to pay them accordingly, regardless of how many all-stars you have. What I'm trying to say is Bosh is the first piece of that talented puzzle and we **** it up. Now he's going to get paid and we don't have much to show for the time we didn't have to dish out 20 mil for the guy. We failed to build the 04 Pistons team already, THAT is what we're dealing with. There is no different model, you try and get the best players you can, the Pistons difference is they didn't draft a budding super star, that's about it.

As for Bargnani he is not even a reset, he's one year younger than Bosh and significantly less productive/effective. So I'm sorry if I can't take too much positives out of a significant roster downgrade. Or even contemplating the idea of letting the same group of clowns who just messed up building a talented roster, when given one peice to start with, fail to do so again but with zero pieces this time. Hooray, can't wait. Just for the record I don't think we go into rebuilding mode if Bosh leaves anyway, the question then becomes where does Colangelo get that dynamic peice to run our engine now? And who is going to hand that to him? Ironically it seems for the "build a balanced team" truthers, our best chance to realise their goal is draft a budding super star. Oh but then are we building "With" or "Around"? I'm so confused.

Yep. Why are we all so concerned about Bargnani's ability to be a number one option? We are a top offensive team in the league, and one of the worst defensive/rebounding teams in the league. Even IF Andrea can permanently step up and score 22ppg or so for the rest of his prime, does that make us any better? He won't be playing many more minutes than he is now and with an increased offensive load, who knows? Maybe he will put up worse RB%'s than he does currently?

I hope he has a breakout offensive year next year just like all of you guys do. The difference is that I hope he does because it will increase his trade value.

[strangespot]

I've noticed he plays worse when Bosh isn't in the lineup.

that's because Bosh gets doubled-triple teamed and Bargs is either wide open at the perimeter or just has enough space to dibble-drive to the basket

[danmuru]

If Andrea's your number one option you're screwed regardless of whatever stats he puts up.

Maybe becaus his points counts less?

[MEDIC]

I don't know if Bargnani can be a legit #1 option, but here are the positives I see for him without having Bosh as a # 1 option:

- More ball movement (keeping teammates alive & interested on offense)
- Bargnani is a more capable passer than Bosh, if plays are run through him more often, we may see a little more of his passing skill on a game to game basis. That pass from the 3 point line to the low post (to Amir) was a thing of beauty the other day.

I don't mind the thought of Bargnani becoming more of a focal point on offense, but they do need a rugged PF or C to play with him & eventually a 20ppg swingman. If the team can focus on these things & eventually attain it, things will be looking up.

I would like to see Bargnani move away from the 3 point shot all together. Use it as a complete last resort option. He is money within 10 feet from the basket. He is as good as Bosh at finishing at close range (he's actually better than Bosh at completing layups).

You pair Bargnani with a rugged C & a legit 20ppg scoring swingman, I'll be saying "Bosh who?" as we roll into the playoffs as the 3rd or 4th seed.

[Crazy-Canuck]

I envision a team where Bosh takes a back seat to the team game; ball movement, passing and cutting.
I envision a team where Bosh uses some of his offensive energy to anchor our defense and be the great help defender he can be.

Too bad it isnt going to happen.

The one thing that I enjoyed watching from the PIstons game was Bargs's passing from the high post. Damn if it wasnt a thing of beauty watching him zing those entry passes.

[princi]

I've noticed he plays worse when Bosh isn't in the lineup.

that's because Bosh gets doubled-triple teamed and Bargs is either wide open at the perimeter or just has enough space to dibble-drive to the basket

during the past seasons i never saw CB4 pass the ball to Andrea when he is doubled. Normally he prefer to jack up a shot o try to draw a foul. Usually when the ball came to Chris the others have just to wach.

I'm all for try a ball movment oriented system next year, its true that the Pistons game isn't rapresentative but it was so fun and fluid to watch.
.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Bosh is much better than Bargs at almost everything, but passing is not one of them.

[Kabookalu]

I envision a team where Bosh uses some of his offensive energy to anchor our defense and be the great help defender he can be.

I agree. I think that Bosh has the passion and high basketball IQ to play defense like Joakim Noah. Like I reiterate over and over again, just check out the Olympics; arguably Team USA's best defender. Perhaps the rules favoured his game, perhaps the style of play allowed him to take advantage of his strengths. No matter how you look at it though, if he consistently played that type of defense with us over the years, he wouldn't be as bad as he is now. In fact he'd probably be one of the better PF defenders in the league. But he can't because he's our first option and he's our main garbageman.

Bosh is always at the right place at the right time; his help defense is extremely underrated. The problem is actually finding the energy to contest the shots. I bet you if you made Joakim Noah the first option on a team (heaven forbid though, it would be ugly), his defense wouldn't be any better than Bosh's right now. Although they're only hand selected moments, back during the Ford years, whenever Ford would try to be the first option and take over the game, I've noticed that Bosh in these instances would play much better defense. It's why I fear the thought of Bosh being paired up with Dwyane Wade. Imagine how much better his defense would be if he had energy to save for that side of the ball. Imagine how many wide open looks he would get with Wade setting him up. The guy is already nailing jumpers in people's faces.

[Jurking]

For those speaking of the Pistons game not being enough of an example, just think about the Opening Night... And that was with Bosh, but the ball just moved everywhere and anywhere...

The fact to the matter is, Raptors as a team relies on ball movement regardless who's on the floor. This season I've seen a lot of games in which the ISOs with Bosh worked because the ball was moving on the other possessions where ISOs could not happen, and I've seen a lot of games in which the ISOs with Bosh failed because the ball was not moving at all. That is why I see Triano (you know in Italy his name would actually mean Triple Ass?) as a bad head coach: he didn't get a thing that for me was just so obvious... He is a good assistant coach when dealing with out of the timeout plays, but just that. Bring to this team an actual coach, and you have the fifth force in the East easily.

Now that being said, the Raptors will have to rely on the ball movement even more when Bosh will be gone (and sorry, I just don't see him resigning in Toronto), basically because Bargs is not efficient like him and does not have is confidence in his game. Because if he would, he would actually be as close to unguardable by other big men as you can think. He has all the tools to succed, and aside from confidence, he's got the same problem of every Euro in the NBA.

That is, the NBA is a wild ride. It's just the opposite of the complicated and must-be-disciplined structure of the Euroleagues Basketball. Think about every Euro in the U.S., they succeed gracefully when put in a structured team because they're used to it. You think Ginobili would be the same player if he played for the Raptors or the Warriors? Hell no. But the Spurs realized what he (and Parker) could bring to the table if put in the right structure. That's when Euro become deadly. And that's when Il Mago too may become deadly. Give him Ettore Messina, give him Popovich, give him Byron Scott and even Jeff Van Gundy: you'll see.

Of course, for that to happen you need a good supporting cast... Jack, Derozan, Turkoglu, Belinelli and Johnson are from Ok to More Than Good at times, you just need other pieces. But that is on Colangelo now, and not on Bargs

[J-Roc]

All the things Arthur says could actually happen. But we'd still be a lottery team.

[neurotik]

Dagger I dont post on RealGM much, but I take a look at it from now and then. One thing I have noticed is that you are extremely high on Bargs and and you seem to avoid genuinely acknowledging his cons. You always seem to write good things about him, you always seem to defend him, I would like to hear you analyze his weaknesses (because you are an excellent poster and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter).

For now my opinion of Bargnani is one of hope, but I am not sure how realistic it is. Bargs definetly can become a 23/8 guy, but only if he mainains foucus and avoids his worst habit, laziness. He is filled with potential, but he is extremely lazy and passive, and until that changes he will not be an impact player but rather an x factor (meaning he can be great only on certain nights due to inconsistency)

[Lionel Messi]

Bosh has a high basketball IQ himself.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this - but perhaps we ran a simple offense not just because of supposed dumb players like Bargs - but because Bosh didn't work well in a complex system. He takes too long to decide what to do and often isn't ready for passes that weren't planned beforehand. Maybe we had to keep it simple for him?

Bosh is no Arvydis Sabonis or Chris Webber when it comes to passing and "complicated" offensive sets, but do you really think that we even tried to run a complex offence in the past 5 years where Bosh was the #1 guy?

Does Smitch strike you as the type of guy to run a Princeton offence? As far as I can remember, Smitch's offence was a hell of a lot of a "just go out and play" style than anything.
Triano is similar, except he runs more plays than Smitch did.

Now I'm not really sure how Bosh would do in a more complex offence, but I'm pretty sure he isn't the reason we aren't running one.
We played a more "European" style of offence in 06/07 with all the ball mouvement and such and he didn't struggle, and neither did our offence. Guys like Bargo, AP, Rasho, Jose and even Bargnani did a good job making those kinds of plays/passes. Bosh certainly didn't cause that system to fail

[Too Late Crew]

A few things from this thread

1. Please stop refering to Manu as a EURO. Last I check Argentian is no where near Europe.
2.The next time someone says we need to build a starless team "like the pistons" please just stop. The pistons were not built without a star. They were built without an OFFENSIVE star. They had the DPOY leading shotblocker rebounder as their star. So when the Raptors decide they are going to have a DPOY center and build a team based on DEFENSE get back to me.
3. Its fine to think the glass is half full. But its only fair of people acknoledge that thre is HUGE overwhelming historical evidence that the glass won't get any fuller or if it does that the water pouring into the glass will be so slow as to hardley be noticable.

4. This constant reaching for teeny tiny sample size niggest of hope it tiresome. Yes Bargs had a good game vs the horrific pistons. This is somehow the template for what "could be" ..if what? We play a terrible team 82 games next year.

I suppose Anthony Tolliver is the next great thing becuase of his 34 point game VS the twolves.

Hey if we want to look at small sample sizes from recnt games:

April Bargs 17 ppg 6 rpg 38% FG
Anthony Tolliver 15 ppg 8 rpg 45% FG