For those that keep hoping to trade for Monta Ellis

[MNPacersfan]

Monta Ellis, Warriors
The unquestioned captain of our all-gunner team, Ellis plays like the "2" on the shot clock isn't there and is seemingly oblivious to the fact most of his teammates are better shooters. If not all of them, actually ... Ellis actually has the worst TS% of any Warriors rotation payer, including the three D-League call-ups, yet is far and away the team leader in usage rate. He has the highest usage rate of any guard with a negative pure point rating, and the seventh-highest of any player in the league ... yet Golden State has the league's 21st-best offense when he's on the court and the second-best when he's not.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/ ... iem-100408

So the question is not will the Warriors trade him, but why would the Pacers take him in trade?

[Grang33r]

Monta Ellis, Warriors
The unquestioned captain of our all-gunner team, Ellis plays like the "2" on the shot clock isn't there and is seemingly oblivious to the fact most of his teammates are better shooters. If not all of them, actually ... Ellis actually has the worst TS% of any Warriors rotation payer, including the three D-League call-ups, yet is far and away the team leader in usage rate. He has the highest usage rate of any guard with a negative pure point rating, and the seventh-highest of any player in the league ... yet Golden State has the league's 21st-best offense when he's on the court and the second-best when he's not.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/ ... iem-100408

So the question is not will the Warriors trade him, but why would the Pacers take him in trade?

Very good find. I do think Ellis will become a very good player once he matures as a player. He has the talent but is selfish and takes bad shots all the time, he also doesn't trust anyone other then himself. All that i think will come around with better players around him and a better coach. In Indiana, i think it'd be a repeat of what he's doing in Golden State. I wouldn't want Ellis here.

[Boneman2]

A lot of players tend to fall out of favor when the team they play for is a genuine loser, ie.GS. Monta is unquestionably a very talented player, and it is my belief that he is being asked to perform something that he is not capable of doing. He cannot lift the Warriors by himself, although he is trying.

Pair him with Granger and I believe you'd see cohesiveness and a very nice one-two offensive punch. Granger needs help soon, unfortunately, any upcoming draft picks are outside of Granger's window to lead us to playoff success, because it will probably take 3-4 seasons to develop them. I feel we need to make a semi-big splash once transactions are resumed. Whether it's Monta, Collison, D.Harris etc..... There will be a player available that could elevate our team, and we're finally in a position to acquire one. So let's do it.

[Miller4ever]

How would Monta Ellis coming here make it so that he's not playing for a loser?

Ellis is not a PG. He is a scoring combo guard, one that benefits from Golden State's system and, in my opinion, would not do very well at all in Indiana. Even with the GS system he is inefficient. I don't want a tweener guard. We have a team construction in Rush-Granger-PsychoMcBob-Hibbert that wouldn't be the most nurturing environment for a combo scoring guard. What happens when Granger is having an off night? I'd rather have a PG that can spark some offense (even if it is facilitating paired with some timely shots like Earl) and get other people involved, not force things and be inefficient. Yes, Monta can light it up sometimes, but we don't need more offense on this team, we need defense all-around and a PG.

[Boneman2]

He is a combo guard that can play defense, #2 in steals/per/game. He is #6 in scoring, two spots ahead of Granger. His career fg% is higher than Danny's, along with career ppg.

The fact is GS wouldn't have imagined trading him prior to this season. He is the latest GS player to earn a bad rep, ie.Dunleavy,Murphy,JAX, BDiddy, Sprewell ( well maybe Spree earned it), but the fact is GS fans turn on their players because they always lose. It is just a bad situation to be in for a player and they want out. Monta has already stated he wouldn't mind a trade.

How would Monta Ellis coming here make it so that he's not playing for a loser?

We have won 8/10. We are mediocre, GS is horrible. Our franchise resided in the playoffs for two decades, they make it once a decade. We've had two contenders in this decade, making one finals appearance.

However, you want to explain our futility is fine with me, but I betcha those surrounding the organization do not enjoy losing, and have been doing all they can to avoid it. Our franchise is still decent, and not worthy of being labeled 'losers.

[Miller4ever]

I'm an optimist, but GS toppled the NBA-best-record Mavs in the first round while we were not in the playoffs. 4 wins separate us this season, and that can be attributed to 1) we refuse to tank and 2) we are in the Eastern conference, which, while it isn't like 3-4 years ago, is still the lesser conference.

Nobody cares about our franchise and financially we're in a really bad spot. Yes, we have great history, but we have never won an NBA championship and even the Warriors have accomplished that. In fact, their history is more impressive, with Rick Barry and Wilt Chamberlain and whatnot.

To me, a sub-.500 season is a losing season, making us losers. Maybe your definition of losers is different.

[Starkiller]

Saying we don't want a player like Monta is the exact reason why we keep sucking every year. We keep settling for much much much lesser talents because they "fit better" and they "aren't a stand up citizen". I don't care if our SG is doing lines of coke off a strippers ass, if we are winning games, let him play. People don't care about that stuff when we are winning.

Indiana is a totally different system than GS. W/ Monta and Danny you've got two guys that can drop 30 on a given night and create their own shot. Two great wing players w/ Hibbert anchoring the middle, if you don't want a player like Monta you are out of your mind.

[MNPacersfan]

Alright! Lots to respond to here!

Boneman2
"A lot of players tend to fall out of favor when the team they play for is a genuine loser, ie.GS. Monta is unquestionably a very talented player, and it is my belief that he is being asked to perform something that he is not capable of doing. He cannot lift the Warriors by himself, although he is trying."
Apparently lifting the team involves taking shots out of double teams early in the clock, over-dribbling, dominating the ball regardless of who is open... For every game like the one at Dallas (when he scored something in the neighborhood of 40 points on 20 shots) he has five where he jacks up 25 shots to score 20 points.

Boneman2
"He is a combo guard that can play defense, #2 in steals/per/game. He is #6 in scoring, two spots ahead of Granger. His career fg% is higher than Danny's, along with career ppg."
No one is saying he can't score, it's that his mindset to score is hurting his team. He has a long way to go. Also, I don't care if he steals 2+ a game, he's constantly getting beat on the perimeter. It's like he doesn't care. With his speed he should be a top defender.

Starkiller
"Saying we don't want a player like Monta is the exact reason why we keep sucking every year. We keep settling for much much much lesser talents because they "fit better" and they "aren't a stand up citizen"."
It's honestly got everything to do with him fitting into any system.
Is he blazing fast? - Yep
Is he a talented scorer? - Without a doubt.
Is he a fantastic athlete? - Absolutely
Can he play a game that isnt' one on one (or more)? - It doesn't appear that way
Last I checked, none of this on this board were determining which players come and go, but the last thing I would want to see is the Pacers paying 12 mill a year to a player with as much growing up to do as Ellis has. He has teammates he can trust (Burry, Morrow, Magette (sort of); guys that will help the team win games) to help, but he still thinks that even on his horrible nights he's just one shot away from getting it going. I admire his confidence, but he doesn't seem to be getting better at moving the ball on his offnights (which come about 3 out of every 5).
Oh, and since I know someone will bring it up: No, I don't really want to see the Pacers paying Murphy or Dunleavy 12 mill a year either, but that bed is made, and at least those two are both good role players, really, really expensive role players, but players that won't try to dominate no matter what the cost to the team and its players.
In 3 years when Monta grows up, he may be one of the great ones, but how much would that set this team back at this point?

[blueandgold]

Trading of a player for a Top 5 pick. What are the league NBA rules on trading a player for a draft pick? Example: Trading a Pacer's player like Ford or Dunleavy or Murchy for a high Draft Pick from Washington? Are there dollar limits associated to the Pick level? Is a number one pick worth more than a number 5?

[Grang33r]

Trading of a player for a Top 5 pick. What are the league NBA rules on trading a player for a draft pick? Example: Trading a Pacer's player like Ford or Dunleavy or Murchy for a high Draft Pick from Washington? Are there dollar limits associated to the Pick level? Is a number one pick worth more than a number 5?

We would still need to receive a player to match the salaries.

#1 pick is worth much more then the #5 pick.

In the Boston/Seattle draft day trade few seasons ago, Boston traded Wally Szczerbiak (expiring), Delonte West (up and comer) and 5th pick (ended up being Jeff Green) for Ray Allen. I think we can all agree there is nobody on this roster besides Granger that is worth anything close to what Allen was worth in the summer of 07.

[Boneman2]

Apparently lifting the team involves taking shots out of double teams early in the clock, over-dribbling, dominating the ball regardless of who is open... For every game like the one at Dallas (when he scored something in the neighborhood of 40 points on 20 shots) he has five where he jacks up 25 shots to score 20 points.

You talking bout Granger or Ellis. Every basketball related complaint that I've heard about Monta could apply to Danny as well. Both have to do more than they should, and sometimes they have off-nights. But overall Danny and Monta are two of the premier scorers in the league. Let's combine them if possible.

[8305]

I worry that Monta Ellis will evolve into the same type of player as Allen Iverson, Stephon Marburry and Steve Francis. Extremely talented scorers who never learned how to play with anyone else. None of them ever learned how to share the ball enough to play point guard and when they moved to the 2 you had defensive problems. In the case of Marbury and Francis they weren't good enough shooters to really play the 2 effectively. Yet, they were volume shooters and since they were not particularly efficient offensive players their teams struggled offensively.

Its not that hard to see why these guys generlly played for average to bad teams.

If you are going to have a guy like this he needs to be used as a #3 guard (Jason Terry) who only worries about scoring with the 2nd unit. When relgated to playing with and against subs their defense isn't as much of an issue. It also helps if you have a big point guard like Hinrich or Kidd but how many of those types even exist? In my opinion this type player (Iverson, Francis, Marbury and Ellis) is more trouble than they are worth.

In the case of Ellis he's making too much money to be a 3rd guard.

[Starkiller]

In 3 years when Monta grows up, he may be one of the great ones, but how much would that set this team back at this point?

Because they are doing so well now?

Monta would create an excitement around here for sure, I'd go to more games definately and I'd have a Monta jersey. Like someone else said, Danny is extremely similar, pair them together and see what happens. I have a feeling they take all those shots and play a one on one style because they feel they have two, if they have another guy on the court who can score like they can they probably would be more apt to playing a team game.

Again I say, this is why we suck, we worry about too many intangibles w/ players instead of just getting talent. Everyone talks about the system and people not fitting, who's to say they can't learn to fit in the system?

[Miller4ever]

Monta would create an excitement around here for sure, I'd go to more games definately and I'd have a Monta jersey. Like someone else said, Danny is extremely similar, pair them together and see what happens. I have a feeling they take all those shots and play a one on one style because they feel they have two, if they have another guy on the court who can score like they can they probably would be more apt to playing a team game.

Why does it make sense to combine two of the same player? Yeah, they can both thrive, but usually it's not a good idea, especially when they are scorers who don't pass.

Monta Ellis is Jamal Crawford 2.0. Also, Danny Granger is WAY better than Monta. Monta is averaging 3.8 turnovers this season. I want no part of that noise. Granger also shoot's higher percentages than Monta across the board. Having Monta take attempts away from Granger is not going to help at all.

Give me one example where having two high-volume shooters/scorers on the wings has led to any type of success.

Again I say, this is why we suck, we worry about too many intangibles w/ players instead of just getting talent.

You're right; passion, hard work, and team play are things you can worry too much about. That's sarcasm, in case you didn't know. Talent means nothing if it's wasted. Look at the Nets starting 5 or the T'Wolves roster. Also, Monta is not some all-star talent. He's a fast guard in GS, who plays 41 minutes a game in a fast offense to get his 25 on 45% shooting in a system where he should be finding himself at the hoop more often.

Everyone talks about the system and people not fitting, who's to say they can't learn to fit in the system?

A good point, but at the same time, we're talking about Monta Ellis, who does not have the best basketball IQ. I would much rather pursue a player who won't be redundant. Every player on the team must play a role, and right now the Pacers don't need a worse version of Danny Granger without defense. What would we have to give up to get Monta? It's not worth it. He's being paid 12 mil to pad his own stats while his team keeps losing. Put other PG's in that system and they'll average better than a 1.5 assist/turnover ratio. Earl Watson is posting a 2.2 ratio. Monta turns the ball over more than Steve Francis and Allen Iverson did in their ballhog primes and shoots worse than both of them.

We have Granger. There's no room for Monta.

[old rem]

He is a combo guard that can play defense, #2 in steals/per/game. He is #6 in scoring, two spots ahead of Granger. His career fg% is higher than Danny's, along with career ppg.

The fact is GS wouldn't have imagined trading him prior to this season. He is the latest GS player to earn a bad rep, ie.Dunleavy,Murphy,JAX, BDiddy, Sprewell ( well maybe Spree earned it), but the fact is GS fans turn on their players because they always lose. It is just a bad situation to be in for a player and they want out. Monta has already stated he wouldn't mind a trade.

How would Monta Ellis coming here make it so that he's not playing for a loser?

We have won 8/10. We are mediocre, GS is horrible. Our franchise resided in the playoffs for two decades, they make it once a decade. We've had two contenders in this decade, making one finals appearance.

However, you want to explain our futility is fine with me, but I betcha those surrounding the organization do not enjoy losing, and have been doing all they can to avoid it. Our franchise is still decent, and not worthy of being labeled 'losers.

Ellis has been adaptable,and if told to try to score 35 so a decimated team has a chance..he tries.
Monta never actually ASKED for a trade...said firmly he did NOT. He did say at one point..trades happen and you mov on, but the thing is..people keep trying to put words in his mouth or distort what he says. He flat said,after a few weeks of false rumors,that those claiming he EVER asked for a trade,were liars. Finally...that shut up some of the East Coast hacks. Will the Warriors trade Ellis? I frankly doubt it...at least not this summer. Having half the rotation out much of the year, makes it hard to draw conclusions. A fan may want CHANGES...good,bad,whatever....may scapegoat various players. A GM has to be more accurate.

As for " Basketball IQ"...Monta has HIGH basketball IQ......maybe less street smarts or eloquence but if you doubt his basketball IQ....try a game of one on one. He'll have 20 baskets before you you can say "this was a bad idea". What do you WANT? 30 pt and 5 asst or 22 pt and 9 asst? Do you want him to "lock down" on D or,play 46 min? let's be realistic....anyone who is gonna get 30-40 pt has to be in "volume shooter" mode to some extent.

Ellis has a quiet confidence that his life is to just play ball best he can,and everything else will go just fine. The guy really has no other agenda...and that's a lot of why I don't want him traded.

[old rem]

Worth note.....last game of the year,GSW beat the Blazers in Portland. Hunter started but his sore knee had him limping,so he just played 2 min...leaving 5 able players...4 of whom had to play full 48.
Ellis + Curry combined for 76 pt...and both were sharing the ball, playing a good overall team effort.
Winning...actually may not have been in GSW's interest. It dropped them from #3 to #4 in the pre-lotto.
However...Nellie was quite thrilled with the effort and chemistry.....as were the players.

Aside from Curry + Ellis, GSW had 2 rookies who were D League at the start of Jan, and Devean George,an over the hill journeyman who also didn't play before Jan. That unlikely trio did well and were very much "included' rather than just watching Ellis or Curry do it all. That game will have a lot of impact on how Nellie and the front office looks to the future.

Could the Pacers get Monta without trading Granger? Probably, but the opening bid would have to be Pick+ Hibbert+ Hansborough,and both sides haggle over fillers. I doubt Indy pays the price,even if that's enough for GSW.

[Starkiller]

Could the Pacers get Monta without trading Granger? Probably, but the opening bid would have to be Pick+ Hibbert+ Hansborough,and both sides haggle over fillers. I doubt Indy pays the price,even if that's enough for GSW.

For that price they are out of their damn minds. We better get a top ten player in the league if we are giving out first, Hibbert, and Hansborough. Get outta here w/ that noise.

[Miller4ever]

It's steep not ridiculous. We couldn't get Deron Williams with that package, and he's top-10.

[Starkiller]

It's steep not ridiculous. We couldn't get Deron Williams with that package, and he's top-10.

Top ten in the league? IDK, close, but....

Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Chris Paul
Chris Bosh
Pau Gasol
Dwight Howard
Brandon Roy
Steve Nash
Tim Duncan
Paul Pierce
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Durrant

You could probably make a case for Deron though.

[Grang33r]

The way Deron Williams played last night i would def put him in the top 10. lol