SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated)

[Lionel Messi]

Any stat that ranks Bogut, Noah, Varejao that low has real issues

Noah's man to man defence isn't all that great. He's pesky, and matches up well with a guy like Bosh, but he's still pretty thin down low and can get backed down pretty easily.
Same with Varejao.
Both Varejao and Noah are one of the best P&R defenders in the league, and in a league that runs as many P&R's as the NBA does, they become really useful.
Bogut's more of a floor leader, he is a solid man defender but his real strength is help defence. He's 2nd in blocked shots and is in he top 5 in charges drawn iirc. Those aren't usually "man to man" defensive plays.

What's sad is that we ALL know Bargs' help D is terrible, but now we're finding out that he is one of the worst man to man defenders as well?

This list was pretty accurate for me too. Other than Dalembert there's no one that looks really out of place. I would have expected Dalembert to be lower.

What are you talking about? He ranks 12th among centres in man to man defence according to this. But of course, a haters gonna hate.

That's funny, because just a week ago someone called me a Bargnani fanboy

Maybe it's just a case of me speaking the truth. I defend Bargnani and I criticize him, i don't "hate".
He's a very poor defender, that's the truth. If you don't like it, then ignore me. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you ignored me because I'm a lying scumbag with some sort of hatred for all things Bargnani, it's because you don't want to read an honest, objective fan's perspective of what he sees.

[Harry Palmer]

How many of those players have been playing Centre for 3 years or less.

Some of you people are just a trial to talk to. You dont want to give a player time to develop but you want to tank for 3 or 4 years and get young players. wtf?

I think you need to tweak this rationalization a tad. While he did play some 3, Bargs also clearly played a lot of 5 his rookie year, too.

I think it should read: How many of those players are Italian, have started as a full time center less than 3 years, had adenoid issues and enjoy pre-game pasta?

Answer: Only one! So that somehow refutes all negative observations and lays criticism on the shoulders of the critics as biased.

Best part: when, lo these many (4) years ago we voiced the criticism of the pick due to the incredibly difficult transition from what Bargs was (is) to a center, THAT was also evidence of bias.

[Schad]

What are you talking about? He ranks 12th among centres in man to man defence according to this. But of course, a haters gonna hate.

He ranks twelfth among STARTING centers in the EASTERN CONFERENCE. Another equally-valid statement would be that he's the third-worst man-to-man defender in the group, and that's supposed to be his defensive forte.

[onemanwolfpack]

Stats can be a wonderful thing when every variable has been taken into consideration. Stats are also a fraudulent way to provide evidence for ones bias.

Three different stats by two people were used to provide a measurement of Rudy's D# in this thread. They not only contradicted each other but one of the posters contradicted himself. He was called out for this and dismissed the criticism as an interpretation error on the part of the person who had criticized him. I guess he missed the irony of it while he was stroking his ego.

Humans are the fundamental flaw in the process of interpreting statistics. Anonymous individuals with preconceived notions exasperate the fundamental flaw.

Flawed statistics FTW?
If so, Harry Palmer and Supersub for GM

[Lionel Messi]

Overall, Bosh is at 0.89 (160) and Amir at 0.93 (255). Don't forget that, at least as far as I can tell so far, these don't include weakside rotations.

Courtside, where you at?

You recently claimed that Bosh was a bigger (or just as big) liability on defence than Bargs. Bosh's man D is supposed to be piss-poor and most definitely worse than Bargs', yet these #s seem to indicate otherwise.

Courtside is going to derail this thread completely with some weak argument that will eventually turn into a bash Bosh thread.

There are certain posters on this board that just can't type the words "Bargs is a terrible defender". It's like it's against their religion.

OK. My appologies to Courtside, it wasn't him who said that, it was "Garbagnani".
here:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1002853&start=105 (pages 7 and 8)

Quotes:

The problem is that he's an absolute liability on the defensive end and rewarding someone like that by making him the #1 option seems like a recipe for failure IMO. And he himself has stated that he has laziness and focus issues and until he proves he can bring it night in and night out, there's no reason to put him in that role.

The idea is for this organization to wipe away this soft label and this kind of move would be counterintuitive.

It is Bosh that is the Liability on Defense. Bargs can cover his man, he just cant help (at all). If we pair bargs with a center that is good help defender that can rebound and blocks shots (10ppg is enough) bargs will not be a liability on defense, he will cover his man, and box out (things he does well).

and

all that I said is that Bosh is a horrible defender. Bosh and Bargs are both horrible team defenders, Bargs is a better man defender than Bosh, thats all. I dont know how i possibly insulted you, or anyone.....

[Harry Palmer]

Three different stats by two people were used to provide a measurement of Rudy's D# in this thread. They not only contradicted each other but one of the posters contradicted himself. He was called out for this and dismissed the criticism as an interpretation error on the part of the person who had criticized him. I guess he missed the irony of it while he was stroking his ego.

Try re-reading.

[Lionel Messi]

Overall, Bosh is at 0.89 (160) and Amir at 0.93 (255). Don't forget that, at least as far as I can tell so far, these don't include weakside rotations.

Courtside, where you at?

You recently claimed that Bosh was a bigger (or just as big) liability on defence than Bargs. Bosh's man D is supposed to be piss-poor and most definitely worse than Bargs', yet these #s seem to indicate otherwise.

Thats because bargs covers the tougher player most of the time. Whether its Tim Duncan, Yao Ming or whomever, Bosh is always covering the weaker smaller player 9 times out of 10.

Why do I see this so often.

SOMETIMES Bargnani will draw the bigger guy, but often times their responsibilities are split. When Dwight had that 9 turnover game and we won, as well as Bargs played him, people seem to completely disregard that Bosh played him almost just as much.
Bosh was asked to defend Pau Gasol, Al Horford etc.

I think it's even crazier to expect our best rebounder, hustle player, and scorer to ALSO be able to stop those guys, who are simply way too big for him.

[Undefeated]

There are certain posters on this board that just can't type the words "Bargs is a terrible defender". It's like it's against their religion.

There are certain things that Bargnani does do well on the defense that seems to be ignored. By no means is Bargnani a great defender nor is he a terrible defender that most claim him to be.

1. Bargnani is often the player that closes out on shooters or force misses whether that's out on the perimeter or inside the paint/post. You'll often see him picking up his teammate's man out on the perimeter and help close out. Most people don't give Bargnani enough credit here as he's the leading Raptor in this area.

2. How about switches where Bargnani seals off penetration and passing lanes?

3. Deflecting passes

[Double Helix]

Actually, these numbers do make a lot of sense, especially when SS pointed to the fact that AB's post up defence was 85th in the entire league which is pretty solid.

Most of his fans, myself included, keyed in on these post up iso's as examples (without having these numbers as proof) that he was starting to get it defensively one-on-one in the post because more often than not he seemed to be making the right decision in those situations and the numbers, as mentioned, back this up. So in that sense our observations were correct.

But that's only one aspect (probably the most visible and obvious aspect of defence is an iso) of the big picture here and AB has to take on more accountability during situations where the spotlight isn't on him and his man for a second or two. Hopefully, somebody in the Raptors organization can bring these numbers up as evidence of what he's doing well (post up defence) while also pointing out all that he's doing wrong.

I suspect, though I can't tell because I don't have the time to read though ALL of the thread at the moment-- I suspect that a lot of these stats are accounting for situations where his man gets an offensive board and puts it right back up (which we all know is one of his weaknesses) while also accounting for situations where a guard drives past Jose and drops it off to the opposing center for a quick, easy bucket. I can't say for sure but it wouldn't surprise me if both of these areas were severely bringing down his ranking. He definitely needs to work on both.

[Kevin Willis]

Who is in the top 5 or 10? SS? Need some perspective here.

[McFurious1]

Just curious, the fact we were such a horrible defensive team wouldn't have to contirbute to these stats would it?

[strangespot]

sorry guys, I didnt read through all the pages but maybe somebody can give me just Bargs' points allowed per possession on pure post-ups only, i.e. when he defends one on one against other C's ? and how he ranks there compared to other centers ? I am just curious about that, If there are any no. available that is.... thx

[onemanwolfpack]

Three different stats by two people were used to provide a measurement of Rudy's D# in this thread. They not only contradicted each other but one of the posters contradicted himself. He was called out for this and dismissed the criticism as an interpretation error on the part of the person who had criticized him. I guess he missed the irony of it while he was stroking his ego.

Try re-reading.

You just reaffirmed my point...thanks for the laugh bud

[Black Milk]

Objective evidence of something that everyone in the league (see the worst defensive team lists) already knows but still people refuse to accept that Bargnani plays terrible d.

[supersub15]

I understand that there are many, many questions. But I just got the subscription this afternoon, and I'd have to go through a lot to get the information I am looking for. You'll have to bear with me while I go through the numbers.

[Harry Palmer]

Three different stats by two people were used to provide a measurement of Rudy's D# in this thread. They not only contradicted each other but one of the posters contradicted himself. He was called out for this and dismissed the criticism as an interpretation error on the part of the person who had criticized him. I guess he missed the irony of it while he was stroking his ego.

Try re-reading.

You just reaffirmed my point...thanks for the laugh bud

Man, perception's a *****.

Or, to put it another way, you are dead wrong, and even the guy you think you are defending on this point has acknowledged it. Gay -0.2 AS OPPOSED TO Bargs +8.5. No contradiction...absolute synchronicity.

But reaffirm away, my friend.

[Harry Palmer]

Just curious, the fact we were such a horrible defensive team wouldn't have to contirbute to these stats would it?

So your argument is that Bargs was a more-than-usually victimized spectator of our defensive woes?

Or is that too apt?

[dacrusha]

Overall, Bosh is at 0.89 (160) and Amir at 0.93 (255). Don't forget that, at least as far as I can tell so far, these don't include weakside rotations.

Surprising about Amir, I think. And quite curious that Jack and Jose had the exact same ratings.

I wonder if these stats perhaps speak largely of the team defensive approach rather than any individual player. For instance, we all saw Bosh being a defensive maniac on USA under Coach K...


Do we have any players who had an above-average defensive season (within top 60) ?

Antoine Wright is our best defender at 86th (0.85 PPP).

No surprise at all.

Wright has gotten a bad rap around here for his low PER... but gets no credit for being the only perimeter player to show up defensively night after night.

[McFurious1]

Just curious, the fact we were such a horrible defensive team wouldn't have to contirbute to these stats would it?

So your argument is that Bargs was a more-than-usually victimized spectator of our defensive woes?

Or is that too apt?

Well considering your five is your last line of defense... I think ppl need to move on cause the Raptors as a whole were a horrible defensive team.... move on.

[Harry Palmer]

Just curious, the fact we were such a horrible defensive team wouldn't have to contirbute to these stats would it?

So your argument is that Bargs was a more-than-usually victimized spectator of our defensive woes?

Or is that too apt?

Well considering your five is your last line of defense... I think ppl need to move on cause the Raptors as a whole were a horrible defensive team.... move on.

No, your 5 is SUPPOSED TO BE your last line of defense, is the point.

And as for moving on, ostriches still die.