SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated)

[kyphi]

Plus, I highly doubt Okur is coming back in 3 to 6 months as reported.

[dagger]

How would he do replacing Okur in Utah?

Okur's career rebounding % : 14.6 (Bosh 14.9)
Bargnani's : 9.8

Okur's career true shooting % : 56.1
Bargnani's : 54.5

Okur's career assists per game : 2.1
Bargnani's : 1.3

While they are superficially similar players, Okur has just been a significantly better player so far.

What do you mean "so far". Okur is 30. Bargnani is 24.

If you want to be intellectually honest, a better comparison is Okur's first four years to Bargnani's four years to date.

Then don't be so selective. Try ppg, 3 pt shooting, etc. Gave us a range of stats, not just the ones that you used to try to prove a point.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... yerId=1014

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... yerId=2987

[Kurtz]

Haywood would have made a huge impact on this team.

But anyways. I'm not saying we need to trade him this second. Simply that you shouldn't just go holding on to every player that has shown what Billups did early in his career in hopes that he'll be the next Billups. And you really shouldn't gamble your franchise player on it imo.

I agree, we maybe make the playoffs with Haywood. But we're still rd 1 fodder, and then Haywood is a UFA and we're likely left with nothing. I'd rather have Bargs than nothing going forward.

Far as Bargs costing us Bosh. Bosh gets along with Bargs on and off the court, so that's not it. If a star guard or C was made available for Bargs, and BC failed to pull the trigger, then sure. But I havent heard of any such rumour.

So I don't think we gambled Bosh on Bargs development.

[Hendrix]

How would he do replacing Okur in Utah?

I think he'd look very good offensivly there. But like usual the question with Bargs isn't about his offense. I think it makes them a worse team.

I still think Orlando would be an optimal fit for Bargs. But Ryan Anderson for 1/8th of the price of Bargs probably isn't so bad

[Lionel Messi]

But at least this refutes that Haywood is a bad defender. Dagger kept saying that mavs fans were complaining about his D, but whenever I watched him play his defence was pretty awesome.

It only refutes it if you think its 100% factual evidence but like most stats its not. I don't think Haywood is a bad defender but he certainly isn't a player that you could put in place of Bargnani with this same roster and expect miracles to happen. Wizards fans had issues with him and the Mavs have had some issues as well, I like him as a backup guy but not much more and apperently the Mavs do as well.

I never said we should trade Bargnani for Haywood, or "replace" him.

I know what the issues are with him. He thinks he's a better offensive player than he is and he forgets to box out or loses focus once in a while. At the end of the day though, he rebounds, he defends his man really well and he can block shots.
He could definitely start next to a guy like Bosh. I'm not saying miracles would happen, but we'd be a better defensive team, that's for damn sure.

[Avenger]

How would he do replacing Okur in Utah?

Okur's career rebounding % : 14.6 (Bosh 14.9)
Bargnani's : 9.8

Okur's career true shooting % : 56.1
Bargnani's : 54.5

Okur's career assists per game : 2.1
Bargnani's : 1.3

While they are superficially similar players, Okur has just been a significantly better player so far.

Rebounding %, TS% and Assists per game are the only stats we're using to evaluate players huh? good to know

[Fairview4Life]

Thing is, you won't get equal value unless another team is looking for a perimeter shooter that has eh D.

Well based on what you've said, what do you consider "equal value"?

I wanted us to trade Bargs for Jeff Green last year. Jeff Green would have fit in really nicely at SF for us.

Unless you're Sam Presti, I don't see how what you wanted matters. Why does Presti want a big who doesn't help teams win, and can't rebound or defend?

[kyphi]

How about length of contract? Anyway, it doesn't work on trade checker.

[Hendrix]

Haywood would have made a huge impact on this team.

But anyways. I'm not saying we need to trade him this second. Simply that you shouldn't just go holding on to every player that has shown what Billups did early in his career in hopes that he'll be the next Billups. And you really shouldn't gamble your franchise player on it imo.

I agree, we maybe make the playoffs with Haywood. But we're still rd 1 fodder, and then Haywood is a UFA and we're likely left with nothing. I'd rather have Bargs than nothing going forward.

Far as Bargs costing us Bosh. Bosh gets along with Bargs on and off the court, so that's not it. If a star guard or C was made available for Bargs, and BC failed to pull the trigger, then sure. But I havent heard of any such rumour.

So I don't think we gambled Bosh on Bargs development.

I'm not really sure what you mean about "getting along" you mean like hanging out, or not getting into fights, or actually playing well together? Because I don't think they played well together and I think that's all Bosh really cares about is winning. He could get along conversationally with just about anyone you put beside him.

As for Haywood. Atleast you're trying to fix things. It's a step in the right direction of having one of the worst defenses ever. It alone isn't a move to get you into the 2nd round probably (although possible), but maybe a follow up move would.

[Kurtz]

How about length of contract? Anyway, it doesn't work on trade checker.

The umm...trade checker...lists the contract length.

So just to sum up, you're not a Raps fan, but have been kind enough to come here to suggest that Bargs won't get better, sucks now and should be dealt for someone of equal value, despite you not knowing what that could possibly be.

Alrighty then.

[Lionel Messi]

Well based on what you've said, what do you consider "equal value"?

I wanted us to trade Bargs for Jeff Green last year. Jeff Green would have fit in really nicely at SF for us.

Unless you're Sam Presti, I don't see how what you wanted matters. Why does Presti want a big who doesn't help teams win, and can't rebound or defend?

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said he doesn't help us win. I doubt Presti would have done that deal, but at the same time I doubt BC would have done it either.
I just meant that this kind of trade would have made sense for both teams. Green is more of an SF forced to play PF because of Durant. We needed a good wing player. They needed some scoring from their bigs (still do). Not to mention Green is tough as hell and plays D.

[hkr]

...
What do you mean "so far". Okur is 30. Bargnani is 24.

If you want to be intellectually honest, a better comparison is Okur's first four years to Bargnani's four years to date.

Then don't be so selective. Try ppg, 3 pt shooting, etc. Gave us a range of stats, not just the ones that you used to try to prove a point.

I don't think "range of stats" is that meaningful in this context. They tell you "why" a player is inefficient and could be used for scouting report, coaching purposes, etc, but the True Shooting % is all that matters at the end for the scoring efficiency.

Since you're accusing me of intellectual dishonesty, here are Okur's first four seasons.

True Shooting % : 54.3
Rebounding %: 15.5
Assists per 36: 2.1

So lower shooting efficiency, but higher rebounding. The whole picture though doesn't change much.

[Avenger]

Jeff Green is the worst defensive player on his team(also the worst overall big minute player), so yeah he would probably fit here pretty well
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=OKC

[Fairview4Life]

How about length of contract? Anyway, it doesn't work on trade checker.

The umm...trade checker...lists the contract length.

So just to sum up, you're not a Raps fan, but have been kind enough to come here to suggest that Bargs won't get better, sucks now and should be dealt for someone of equal value, despite you not knowing what that could possibly be.

Alrighty then.

It was only to defend Harry. Harry being misunderstood and persecuted is like a bat signal for her.

[Lionel Messi]

Jeff Green is the worst defensive player on his team(also the worst overall big minute player), so yeah he would probably fit here pretty well
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=OKC

I'm just going off what I see. I see a really strong guy who can block shots and defend the perimeter pretty well.

He's the third best player on a really good defensive team and he's asked to play PF. That's my excuse for him, because when I watch him play, I really like what I see on defence.

[kyphi]

How about length of contract? Anyway, it doesn't work on trade checker.

The umm...trade checker...lists the contract length.

So just to sum up, you're not a Raps fan, but have been kind enough to come here to suggest that Bargs won't get better, sucks now and should be dealt for someone of equal value, despite you not knowing what that could possibly be.

Alrighty then.

I never said he sucks - I said he has an excellent perimeter shot - but thanks for putting words in my mouth - and several Raps fans have stated the same about not knowing who would trade for him - thanks, but I don't play that game. and I do know the length of their contracts - often that matters in terms of a trade.

[hkr]

Rebounding %, TS% and Assists per game are the only stats we're using to evaluate players huh? good to know

I believe they are, along with turnovers, as long as they players are similar enough in usage rate. There are obviously other factors, but given that usage rate thingy if you know how efficient the player's scoring is, how many rebounds he grabs, how many turnovers he makes along with assists, I think you can get a pretty nice picture of the player's productivity. Of course there are defense and other stuff too, but I doubt they change the picture much when we're discussing Bargs and Okur.

[Avenger]

Jeff Green is the worst defensive player on his team(also the worst overall big minute player), so yeah he would probably fit here pretty well
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=OKC

I'm just going off what I see. I see a really strong guy who can block shots and defend the perimeter pretty well.

He's the third best player on a really good defensive team and he's asked to play PF. That's my excuse for him, because when I watch him play, I really like what I see on defence.

Well then its a good thing you're not a scout right? Jeff Green is just as bad as AB on defence despite his athleticism, "heart"etc etc and AB is also a significantly better offensive player. And he doesn't block shots all that well, he only has 0.9 blocks per 36 minutes. To this board's standards , he is honestly a really really bad player(given how many minutes he plays), the thunder win in spite of him and definitely not because of him

[Fairview4Life]

Jeff Green is the worst defensive player on his team(also the worst overall big minute player), so yeah he would probably fit here pretty well
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=OKC

I'm just going off what I see. I see a really strong guy who can block shots and defend the perimeter pretty well.

He's the third best player on a really good defensive team and he's asked to play PF. That's my excuse for him, because when I watch him play, I really like what I see on defence.

I also think his D numbers might be skewed due to the fact he was moved from the wing to PF for them. I think it will probably get better as he gets more experience. But that's what I think about Bargs playing C and he doesn't seem to get the same latitude from fans.

[Avenger]

I believe they are, along with turnovers, as long as they players are similar enough in usage rate. There are obviously other factors, but given that usage rate thingy if you know how efficient the player's scoring is, how many rebounds he grabs, how many turnovers he makes along with assists, I think you can get a pretty nice picture of the player's productivity. Of course there are defense and other stuff too, but I doubt they change the picture much when we're discussing Bargs and Okur.

Well good for you, anyone who uses assists per game to evaluate a player is an idiot in my book. Assists have everything to do with the players role on his team and not his true passing ability, expecting a spot up shooter who is on the finishing end of plays to rack up assists makes no sense. There is a reason a horrific creator like Calderon racks up more assists than the best playmakers int he league.