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SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated)

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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#481 » by cookieman » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:53 pm

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cookieman wrote:Good post roundhead.

. However, I am not interested in facts unless they support my own pre-conceived notions. There I said it.



That's all you had to say. :thumbsup:

I hereby appoint you the official spokesman of the Raptors RealGM flat-earth society. Courtside, Dagger, Mcfurios et. al. will contact you shortly for further instructions. :hug:



Sounds good. Looking at going to the VSL again this year, so that will be a place for us to convene. And, you know, support the young players as they develop instead of whining we don't have LeBron.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#482 » by Double Helix » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:07 pm

Is there any way for us to determine the amount of possessions each of these guys averages per game so that we can further analyze these numbers?

I think that added value would add a lot of weight and another variable to the discussions and arguments that are ongoing.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#483 » by Neutral 123 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:11 pm

roundhead0 wrote:
Neutral 123 wrote:If we are watching the games, we can see that Bargs is every bit as bad as the data suggests.


I disagree with that. Overall Bargnani's defense is clearly not good, but these stats were looking at man-to-man defense, and in that light I think Bargnani was pretty respectable overall based on actually watching him play. The bigger problem was probably the system or else the players in the system. There was general confusion and ineffectiveness all-around with this team and switching off, so I would not be surprised if most of the players look relatively bad in man-to-man defensive numbers since they were also coming late to try to defend an open man due to a poor switch and thus at a great disadvantage.


Bargs was amongst the worst. Jose was worse. I believe someone posted that Jack was just as bad as Jose, which comes off as a bit of a surprise. He's as bad as advertised, and despite any system, it was clear that this team wasn't going to be able to defend. Bargs is only part of the problem, but according to the data, and my own eyes, he's a major part of it.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#484 » by Fairview4Life » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:14 pm

Double Helix wrote:Is there any way for us to determine the amount of possessions each of these guys averages per game so that we can further analyze these numbers?

I think that added value would add a lot of weight and another variable to the discussions and arguments that are ongoing.


Fairview4Life wrote:
supersub15 wrote:7.27 man-to-man possessions per game for Dwight Howard
7.69 man-to-man possessions per game for Joakim Noah
9.35 man-to-man possessions per game for Andrea Bargnani


So Dwight is 5.96 actual points per game against, Noah is 6.84 actual points per game against, and Bargs is 8.6 actual points per game against. That's not 3 points and 4 points better. That's Noah giving up 1.76 points less per game than Bargs and Howard giving up 2.64 less points per game than Bargs, on man to man coverage, including when they are the closest guys in a zone and when there's a switch.

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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#485 » by cookieman » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:18 pm

I dont think there's an argument to be had. With Bargnani's D, people disagree on the various shades of bad, but no one is on here saying he's Bill Russell 2.0. There are really two camps - those who think he can get better, and the people who say he can't. People have chosen their side, and there really is no civil discussion to be had. You're either a hopeful moron, or a bitter depresso.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#486 » by Hendrix » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:25 pm

Courtside wrote:
Reignman wrote:Those monikers stem from people like you who can't / won't admit the truth.

They're not monikers (seems you don't even know what the word means) - they're thinly veiled insults.

You know it. Tommy Gun knows it. Hendrix knows it.

I know that the shoe fits, and I call it like I see it.


If someone is saying something crazy/irrational, it's not an insult to call them crazy, it's the truth.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#487 » by roundhead0 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:31 pm

Neutral 123 wrote:Bargs was amongst the worst. Jose was worse. I believe someone posted that Jack was just as bad as Jose, which comes off as a bit of a surprise. He's as bad as advertised, and despite any system, it was clear that this team wasn't going to be able to defend. Bargs is only part of the problem, but according to the data, and my own eyes, he's a major part of it.


Keep in mind that these stats are only for man-to-man defense. Overall yes--Bargnani was bad. But man-to-man alone? He looked respectable out there. He wasn't quickly or frequently blown by for easy layups (except when he was too slow to switch to help on someone else's man), and he blocked or was in position to make much more difficult a lot of shots.

If he played help defense at the same level he plays man defense, the Raps would be a heck of a lot better.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#488 » by Lionel Messi » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:31 pm

cookieman wrote:I dont think there's an argument to be had. With Bargnani's D, people disagree on the various shades of bad, but no one is on here saying he's Bill Russell 2.0. There are really two camps - those who think he can get better, and the people who say he can't. People have chosen their side, and there really is no civil discussion to be had. You're either a hopeful moron, or a bitter depresso.


I think he's terrible defensively but that he will get better. Where do i fit?
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#489 » by roundhead0 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:34 pm

Hendrix wrote:
Courtside wrote:
Reignman wrote:Those monikers stem from people like you who can't / won't admit the truth.

They're not monikers (seems you don't even know what the word means) - they're thinly veiled insults.

You know it. Tommy Gun knows it. Hendrix knows it.

I know that the shoe fits, and I call it like I see it.


If someone is saying something crazy/irrational, it's not an insult to call them crazy, it's the truth.



Sure it is--if you choose a deliberately insulting name that has additional baggage and meaning attached. It's the same reason people get offended by calling someone mentally handicapped "a (Please Use More Appropriate Word)", or why rational discussion breaks down the moment one side accuses the other of being like Hitler.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#490 » by JN » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:36 pm

Interesting stuff. Great info.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#491 » by Double Helix » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:44 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:7.27 man-to-man possessions per game for Dwight Howard
7.69 man-to-man possessions per game for Joakim Noah
9.35 man-to-man possessions per game for Andrea Bargnani


So Dwight is 5.96 actual points per game against, Noah is 6.84 actual points per game against, and Bargs is 8.6 actual points per game against. That's not 3 points and 4 points better. That's Noah giving up 1.76 points less per game than Bargs and Howard giving up 2.64 less points per game than Bargs, on man to man coverage, including when they are the closest guys in a zone and when there's a switch.

What did I do wrong?


See, that's extremely helpful and it adds clarity to the overall discussion. Dwight has a reputation as a reigning defensive player of the year. I would suspect that he sees less possessions one-on-one because people are intimidated to go at him. And lane intimidation is still an aspect of defence so the Magic benefit from it.

Still, and I know the Bargnani haters will bash me for this-- But still, when you break it down like that and think that Bargs is only giving up 2.63 points per game more than Dwight freakin' Howard and only 1.76 points more per game than Joakim (everybody acts like he's the second-coming of Rodman) Noah than it's almost laughable how everybody is acting like this can't be overcome with more knowledge of the position, confidence in the post, and hard work in the offseason.

I was honestly expecting a MUCH larger point gap than that when comparing him against two studs like Howard and Noah! And when you consider how much better Andrea is at scoring than a lot of the other centers listed ahead of him defensively... I wouldn't be surprised if his overall net value in terms of what he's actually giving the Raptors vs what he's giving up is actually fairly impressive compared to some of the other names on this list.

Without much work I'd bet he'll come back better defensively just through wisdom and increased knowledge of the position. With hard work devoted to his weaknesses? Who knows...
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#492 » by Reignman » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:49 pm

roundhead0 wrote:
Hendrix wrote:
Courtside wrote:They're not monikers (seems you don't even know what the word means) - they're thinly veiled insults.

You know it. Tommy Gun knows it. Hendrix knows it.

I know that the shoe fits, and I call it like I see it.


If someone is saying something crazy/irrational, it's not an insult to call them crazy, it's the truth.



Sure it is--if you choose a deliberately insulting name that has additional baggage and meaning attached. It's the same reason people get offended by calling someone mentally handicapped "a (Please Use More Appropriate Word)", or why rational discussion breaks down the moment one side accuses the other of being like Hitler.


I don't think calling someone a "liar" would be any better. "Nuthugger" takes the edge off of it and keeps things fun.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#493 » by darth_federer » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:51 pm

Realgm: where trying to justify pathetic defense with 33 pages of excuses happens.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#494 » by Hendrix » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:58 pm

roundhead0 wrote:
Hendrix wrote:I know that the shoe fits, and I call it like I see it.


If someone is saying something crazy/irrational, it's not an insult to call them crazy, it's the truth.



Sure it is--if you choose a deliberately insulting name that has additional baggage and meaning attached. It's the same reason people get offended by calling someone mentally handicapped "a (Please Use More Appropriate Word)", or why rational discussion breaks down the moment one side accuses the other of being like Hitler.

There is additional baggage attatched to "Hitler" . Well of course unless the person you're calling "Hitler" is doing the same things Hitler did, then it would be appropriate.

But the definition of nuthugger is basically a fanboy that praises something, and can't see the negatives. Which is spot on in this case.

Anyways, I said last page, I'm not interested in discussing Bargs any further with a select few irrational posters in here because it's a waste of time. And arguing about semantics might just be the only bigger waste of time.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#495 » by cookieman » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:04 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
I think he's terrible defensively but that he will get better. Where do i fit?


you and I are in the same boat. Apparently, though we acknowledge that Bargnani's defense is bad, our belief/hope that he can and will improve is baseless and therefore we are nuthuggers. So you're a nuthugger.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#496 » by Undefeated » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:06 pm

- Bargs is a piss poor rebounder


Agreed. Bargnani is a piss poor rebounder. But how much of that is on Bargnani and by design to cover for his teammates. As I've said throughout the season, Bargnani has shown major improvements where he's boxing-out his man and grabbing the rebound. But ALL Bargnani is box-out his man. As by design, Bargnani is often out on the perimeter because NONE of the players close out on shooters consistently. Watch Bargnani, he's often hanging around the perimeter and this isn't an excuse.

- Bargs is a piss poor help defender


Again, how much of is that on Bargnani? When Bargnani is only focusing on a few thing of the defensive end, he tends to do a better job of coming over on the weakside for a blocked shot. I'm sure a few have said this before. Ironically, Bargnani is the Raptors best help defender in the clutch because he has come up huge getting stops. Bargnani has the ability to be a better help defender, but not all the slack can be put on him because he has shown the ability to help out effectively.

- Bargs is a sub par man defender


Did you bother look at the numbers or going to keep on spewing out lies? Looking at the numbers, Bargnani is at 0.92 which is close to other great man defenders too. Bargnani might not be a good man defender as most say he is, but he's certainly now below average either.

- Bargs so called "improvements" are more a product of increased minutes than actual improvement, especially when you consider it's taken him 4 years to get to where he is
- Empirical evidence suggests he's terrible on defense and his learning curve is that of a mentally challenged brick (statistical evidence backs this as well)


This is complete bull now. Bargnani’s improvements stemmed from his desire to improve, not because of increased minutes. How do you say Bargnani improved due to minutes when he’s getting the almost same amount of minutes as last season. Bargnani didn’t know what to do last season where he was involved in a switch. This season, he gasp the concept much better using his length and height to his advantage sealing off the driving and passing lanes. How about Bargnani exposing mismatches much more by posting them up? Bargnani getting doubled team more often had nothing to do with his minutes rather the fact that he improved himself.

This guy is barely a starting calibre player so I don't get why some of you are being goaded into giving him props for some really pathetic achievments. Even on offense, you expect big men to shoot a high percentage and he's not even top 3 on THIS team. He doesn't draw fouls and can barely create his own shot.


Why the hell are you blaming Bargnani? Everything has to be put on Bargnani eh? Yes, Bargnani is supposed to get in the post and score, but that’s not his role in the offensive system. His role on offense is to play off the ball by design, so don’t start spewing crap on Bargnani that he can’t draw fouls or create his own shot. You give Bargnani the opportunity to create himself, he has done just fine job with his pump fake, drive towards the foul-line and pull up for a jump shot. His ability to change directions on the fly while shaking off his defender is another example of creating his own offense.

So he can take smaller guys in the post now, big **** whoop, 4 years for that and we're supposed to be jumping for joy? Honestly, on any other team Bargnani would be relegated to Ryan Anderson status. Small contract / small role off the bench to come in and give the defense a different look.


No, Bargnani has the skill to attract the double team too which creates space down the lane for a dunk or lay-up.

Bargnani is barely a starter in this league, nobody should feel bad for stating this. He'll have to improve at a rate that not only has he never displayed himself, but a rate that very few players ever improve at after age 24/25. You can bend / twist / outright lie, but the facts speak for themselves.


What facts? You mean your opinion? Surely enough, Bargnani would still find a role as a starter for other teams in the league. A team that lacks offense with great offense would surely need Bargnani because they'll find a way to mask his defensive deficiencies. At this point, the Raptors SHOULDN'T be building around Bargnani, rather put pieces together that fit together and Amir, Sonny, DeMar and Jarrett seem to fit with Bargnani.

Anyways, I’m done with this. Bargnani deserves way too much hate on this board such as Reignman who can’t even see his improvements. We’ll see next season whether Bargnani will pan out or flop. No need to argue anymore. :wave:
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#497 » by strangespot » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:07 pm

Double Helix wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:7.27 man-to-man possessions per game for Dwight Howard
7.69 man-to-man possessions per game for Joakim Noah
9.35 man-to-man possessions per game for Andrea Bargnani


So Dwight is 5.96 actual points per game against, Noah is 6.84 actual points per game against, and Bargs is 8.6 actual points per game against. That's not 3 points and 4 points better. That's Noah giving up 1.76 points less per game than Bargs and Howard giving up 2.64 less points per game than Bargs, on man to man coverage, including when they are the closest guys in a zone and when there's a switch.

What did I do wrong?


See, that's extremely helpful and it adds clarity to the overall discussion. Dwight has a reputation as a reigning defensive player of the year. I would suspect that he sees less possessions one-on-one because people are intimidated to go at him. And lane intimidation is still an aspect of defence so the Magic benefit from it.

Still, and I know the Bargnani haters will bash me for this-- But still, when you break it down like that and think that Bargs is only giving up 2.63 points per game more than Dwight freakin' Howard and only 1.76 points more per game than Joakim (everybody acts like he's the second-coming of Rodman) Noah than it's almost laughable how everybody is acting like this can't be overcome with more knowledge of the position, confidence in the post, and hard work in the offseason.

I was honestly expecting a MUCH larger point gap than that when comparing him against two studs like Howard and Noah! And when you consider how much better Andrea is at scoring than a lot of the other centers listed ahead of him defensively... I wouldn't be surprised if his overall net value in terms of what he's actually giving the Raptors vs what he's giving up is actually fairly impressive compared to some of the other names on this list.

Without much work I'd bet he'll come back better defensively just through wisdom and increased knowledge of the position. With hard work devoted to his weaknesses? Who knows...


oh no please, stop that.. Bargs haters are already close to a nervous breaksdown since they learned that Bargs has ANSWERED to a simple question by saysing he would not mind the role of franchise player if asked (oh no Bargs, how dare you !!)).... they really dont need this

:D
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#498 » by Lionel Messi » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:11 pm

Double Helix wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:7.27 man-to-man possessions per game for Dwight Howard
7.69 man-to-man possessions per game for Joakim Noah
9.35 man-to-man possessions per game for Andrea Bargnani


So Dwight is 5.96 actual points per game against, Noah is 6.84 actual points per game against, and Bargs is 8.6 actual points per game against. That's not 3 points and 4 points better. That's Noah giving up 1.76 points less per game than Bargs and Howard giving up 2.64 less points per game than Bargs, on man to man coverage, including when they are the closest guys in a zone and when there's a switch.

What did I do wrong?


See, that's extremely helpful and it adds clarity to the overall discussion. Dwight has a reputation as a reigning defensive player of the year. I would suspect that he sees less possessions one-on-one because people are intimidated to go at him. And lane intimidation is still an aspect of defence so the Magic benefit from it.

Still, and I know the Bargnani haters will bash me for this-- But still, when you break it down like that and think that Bargs is only giving up 2.63 points per game more than Dwight freakin' Howard and only 1.76 points more per game than Joakim (everybody acts like he's the second-coming of Rodman) Noah than it's almost laughable how everybody is acting like this can't be overcome with more knowledge of the position, confidence in the post, and hard work in the offseason.

I was honestly expecting a MUCH larger point gap than that when comparing him against two studs like Howard and Noah! And when you consider how much better Andrea is at scoring than a lot of the other centers listed ahead of him defensively... I wouldn't be surprised if his overall net value in terms of what he's actually giving the Raptors vs what he's giving up is actually fairly impressive compared to some of the other names on this list.

Without much work I'd bet he'll come back better defensively just through wisdom and increased knowledge of the position. With hard work devoted to his weaknesses? Who knows...


Sure, there are plenty of those guys I wouldn't trade Bargnani for.
Like,
Dalembert, Tyson "pussyfoot" Chandler, Frye, Dampier, Spencer Hawes, Emeka Okafor, Gortat ...

and there's more.

But in terms of man-to-man defence, he's near the bottom of the list.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#499 » by Lionel Messi » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:13 pm

cookieman wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
I think he's terrible defensively but that he will get better. Where do i fit?


you and I are in the same boat. Apparently, though we acknowledge that Bargnani's defense is bad, our belief/hope that he can and will improve is baseless and therefore we are nuthuggers. So you're a nuthugger.


It's warm down here. Bargs must wear some tight ass briefs.
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Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated) 

Post#500 » by strangespot » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:21 pm

This guy is barely a starting calibre player so I don't get why some of you are being goaded into giving him props for some really pathetic achievments. Even on offense, you expect big men to shoot a high percentage and he's not even top 3 on THIS team. He doesn't draw fouls and can barely create his own shot.


haha... this is too funny. really, you guys can blame/hate Bargs defensively as much as you want, but if you do not have any idea how Bargs HAS to play offensively BY DESIGN, then please at least have the decency not to post such.... nonsense. Offensively he CLEARLY has not the role of a typical center

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