SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated)

[Harry Palmer]

Molto bene Harry lol

Hot damn!

What part of Rome do they...er...we live in?

[Skeebs]

Realgm: where trying to justify pathetic defense with 33 pages of excuses happens.

How about trying to justify signing zach randolph 2.0 to a max contract.

[Skeebs]

I know that the shoe fits, and I call it like I see it.


If someone is saying something crazy/irrational, it's not an insult to call them crazy, it's the truth.

Sure it is--if you choose a deliberately insulting name that has additional baggage and meaning attached. It's the same reason people get offended by calling someone mentally handicapped "a (Please Use More Appropriate Word)", or why rational discussion breaks down the moment one side accuses the other of being like Hitler.

There is additional baggage attatched to "Hitler" . Well of course unless the person you're calling "Hitler" is doing the same things Hitler did, then it would be appropriate.

But the definition of nuthugger is basically a fanboy that praises something, and can't see the negatives. Which is spot on in this case.

Anyways, I said last page, I'm not interested in discussing Bargs any further with a select few irrational posters in here because it's a waste of time. And arguing about semantics might just be the only bigger waste of time.

What the hell are you going on about. Like buddy said above, there are two camps. People who hate andrea and dont see ANY good and peope that like andrea and see that he needs to work on his weaknesses

it gives your argument very little weight to use such hyperbole all the time. Why cant you stick to whats actually being said in the real world instead of making crap up.

[Schad]

What the hell are you going on about. Like buddy said above, there are two camps. People who hate andrea and dont see ANY good and peope that like andrea and see that he needs to work on his weaknesses

it gives your argument very little weight to use such hyperbole all the time. Why cant you stick to whats actually being said in the real world instead of making crap up.

No, there are two camps...those who believe that Bargs will still make great strides addressing those weaknesses, and those who feel that his weaknesses are such that it is extremely unlikely that his overall impact on the floor will be to any great extent positive. I'm probably one of the loudest 'Bargs haters' on the board, but I want the guy to succeed. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to bury my head in the sand and pretend that he is succeeding.

[Lionel Messi]

Realgm: where trying to justify pathetic defense with 33 pages of excuses happens.

How about trying to justify signing zach randolph 2.0 to a max contract.

He's way better than Zach Randolph.

[DG88]

Bargnani sucks I hope I've contributed well to this discussion

[Skeebs]

Realgm: where trying to justify pathetic defense with 33 pages of excuses happens.

How about trying to justify signing zach randolph 2.0 to a max contract.

He's way better than Zach Randolph.

The only thing seprating CB4 from Zach is his attitude. Go look at what people were saying about his talent in his first few years in portland. Zach rebounds better, shoots at a better clip and plays terrible defence.

Can you tell me please what cb4 does better than zach randolph besides not being a (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

[Schad]

The only thing seprating CB4 from Zach is his attitude. Go look at what people were saying about his talent in his first few years in portland. Zach rebounds better, shoots at a better clip and plays terrible defence.

Can you tell me please what cb4 does better than zach randolph besides not being a (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

How is a TS% 50 points lower "shooting better"?

[Lionel Messi]

How about trying to justify signing zach randolph 2.0 to a max contract.

He's way better than Zach Randolph.

The only thing seprating CB4 from Zach is his attitude. Go look at what people were saying about his talent in his first few years in portland. Zach rebounds better, shoots at a better clip and plays terrible defence.

Can you tell me please what cb4 does better than zach randolph besides not being a (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

He scores better, defends better, rebounds at almost the same rate, draws more fouls, passes better and all while carrying a MUCH bigger load than Randolph.
It's funny, Randolph has a bruising center, two wings capable of putting up 20ppg on a nightly basis and a quick PG who penetrates very well, but STILL isn't as good as Bosh statistically and can't even get a .500 record.
No one on Bosh's team is even as good as Mayo, Gay, or even Marc Gasol ffs.

[Lionel Messi]

The only thing seprating CB4 from Zach is his attitude. Go look at what people were saying about his talent in his first few years in portland. Zach rebounds better, shoots at a better clip and plays terrible defence.

Can you tell me please what cb4 does better than zach randolph besides not being a (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

How is a TS% 50 points lower "shooting better"?

Randolph shoots a worse percentage than Bosh from every part of the floor. He also has a worse FG%, eFG% AND TS%

[Hendrix]

No, there are two camps...those who believe that Bargs will still make great strides addressing those weaknesses, and those who feel that his weaknesses are such that it is extremely unlikely that his overall impact on the floor will be to any great extent positive. I'm probably one of the loudest 'Bargs haters' on the board, but I want the guy to succeed. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to bury my head in the sand and pretend that he is succeeding.

Spot on sir.

[Reignman]

This guy is barely a starting calibre player so I don't get why some of you are being goaded into giving him props for some really pathetic achievments. Even on offense, you expect big men to shoot a high percentage and he's not even top 3 on THIS team. He doesn't draw fouls and can barely create his own shot.

haha... this is too funny. really, you guys can blame/hate Bargs defensively as much as you want, but if you do not have any idea how Bargs HAS to play offensively BY DESIGN, then please at least have the decency not to post such.... nonsense. Offensively he CLEARLY has not the role of a typical center

So we agree, he's like a SG/SF on offense.

[cookieman]

No, there are two camps...those who believe that Bargs will still make great strides addressing those weaknesses, and those who feel that his weaknesses are such that it is extremely unlikely that his overall impact on the floor will be to any great extent positive. I'm probably one of the loudest 'Bargs haters' on the board, but I want the guy to succeed. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to bury my head in the sand and pretend that he is succeeding.

Spot on sir.

So everyone hopes Bargs will get better? Sad as it is - I doubt it. Some people live for I-told-you-so's.

I understand that optimism here is believed to be unwarranted, even if the outcome is desired. However, as a 'nuthugger', I don't pretend that he is succeeding. My head isn't in the sand. He's a poor defensive player. We are in agreement there. However, I believe he'll get better. So perhaps my head is up my ass instead.

[A_wildstabatanything]

Even on offense, you expect big men to shoot a high percentage and he's not even top 3 on THIS team.

Nice attempt to distort things. Technically, I could claim Bosh isn't top 3 either (Amir, Rasho, POB)... but that would be stupid.

Bargnani attempted 325 three pointers. I don't know, but that might have affected his FG% a bit. Subtract those and he shot 51% on over 800 attempts inside the arc.

[Reignman]

Sure it is--if you choose a deliberately insulting name that has additional baggage and meaning attached. It's the same reason people get offended by calling someone mentally handicapped "a (Please Use More Appropriate Word)", or why rational discussion breaks down the moment one side accuses the other of being like Hitler.

There is additional baggage attatched to "Hitler" . Well of course unless the person you're calling "Hitler" is doing the same things Hitler did, then it would be appropriate.

But the definition of nuthugger is basically a fanboy that praises something, and can't see the negatives. Which is spot on in this case.

Anyways, I said last page, I'm not interested in discussing Bargs any further with a select few irrational posters in here because it's a waste of time. And arguing about semantics might just be the only bigger waste of time.

What the hell are you going on about. Like buddy said above, there are two camps. People who hate andrea and dont see ANY good and peope that like andrea and see that he needs to work on his weaknesses

it gives your argument very little weight to use such hyperbole all the time. Why cant you stick to whats actually being said in the real world instead of making crap up.

Isn't that a pre-requisite for being a Bargnani nuthugger?

[strangespot]

No, there are two camps...those who believe that Bargs will still make great strides addressing those weaknesses, and those who feel that his weaknesses are such that it is extremely unlikely that his overall impact on the floor will be to any great extent positive. I'm probably one of the loudest 'Bargs haters' on the board, but I want the guy to succeed. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to bury my head in the sand and pretend that he is succeeding.

I may sound like a broken record by saying this again and again but, the thing is, how can a guy succeed when there was no clear role for him for his first 3 years ? And nobody can tell me that there was. Clearly, as no. 1 pick, you'd expect much more from him. But then again, how many other no. 1 picks were moved from one position to another and another again and again... then back... benched, started, sent to big man camp and then started at SF... dont think any development plan for a no. 1 pick was as confused as it was for Bargs... and all began with the fact that he got picked by a team which already had somebody playing great in his position.

Toronto's rebuilding era basically began in 06/07 with Bosh as the new franchise and the no.1 pick. Rebuilding doesnt happen overnight... developing a player in a new position doesnt happen overnight. They knew they had to start Bargs at C. So why dont start him from day 1 next to Bosh. But no, the Raports desperately wanted to be a winning team... In my mind, it was not the fact that Andrea was drafted but the totally non-existand plan of what exatly to do with him that set back this franchise back. With 22 he could have been were he is now

[AfricanSensation]

Molto bene Harry lol

Hot damn!

What part of Rome do they...er...we live in?

Close to Eur Palasport! You already forgot when we used to walk to the Palasport to scout Roko Ukic

[Schad]

I understand that optimism here is believed to be unwarranted, even if the outcome is desired. However, as a 'nuthugger', I don't pretend that he is succeeding. My head isn't in the sand. He's a poor defensive player. We are in agreement there. However, I believe he'll get better. So perhaps my head is up my ass instead.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with believing that he's get better, but it's when that transitions to expecting that he will and desiring personnel moves designed to support that eventual growth that I leave the mix.

I may sound like a broken record by saying this again and again but, the thing is, how can a guy succeed when there was no clear role for him for his first 3 years ? And nobody can tell me that there was. Clearly, as no. 1 pick, you'd expect much more from him. But then again, how many other no. 1 picks were moved from one position to another and another again and again... then back... benched, started, sent to big man camp and then started at SF... dont think any development plan for a no. 1 pick was as confused as it was for Bargs... and all began with the fact that he got picked by a team which already had somebody playing great in his position.

Cause and effect. These things aren't necessary with most first overall picks because they establish their value early, and they make the decision a no-brainer.

Toronto's rebuilding era basically began in 06/07 with Bosh as the new franchise and the no.1 pick. Rebuilding doesnt happen overnight... developing a player in a new position doesnt happen overnight. They knew they had to start Bargs at C. So why dont start him from day 1 next to Bosh. But no, the Raports desperately wanted to be a winning team... In my mind, it was not the fact that Andrea was drafted but the totally non-existand plan of what exatly to do with him that set back this franchise back. With 22 he could have been were he is now

Starting a player when they are not yet prepared is not necessarily developing them. It was painfully obvious in Bargs' rookie season that he was pretty raw when it came to the NBA game, and throwing him out there for 35 mpg wouldn't have been in anyone's interests. Lest we forget, Bosh began his career on the bench. Garnett began his career on the bench. Dirk began his career on the bench. Yao briefly began his career on the bench, before showing that he was further along the development curve than anyone expected.

All of these players were eased into the NBA, before proving indispensable on the court. Bargs did not, and arguably still has not, and as a result his playing time has wavered with his play.

[strangespot]

This guy is barely a starting calibre player so I don't get why some of you are being goaded into giving him props for some really pathetic achievments. Even on offense, you expect big men to shoot a high percentage and he's not even top 3 on THIS team. He doesn't draw fouls and can barely create his own shot.

haha... this is too funny. really, you guys can blame/hate Bargs defensively as much as you want, but if you do not have any idea how Bargs HAS to play offensively BY DESIGN, then please at least have the decency not to post such.... nonsense. Offensively he CLEARLY has not the role of a typical center

So we agree, he's like a SG/SF on offense.

In short, as I see it, offensively Andrea for the RAptors is what R. Lewis is for Orlando or C. Frye in PHX, while Bosh is downlow. Bargs posts up as well occasionally, but (IF he gets the ball anyway) that happens mostly when oppoents put a smaller guy on him and/or when Bosh it out. Thats basically it. and it works, because dont see offense being a problem for the Raptors .

[cookieman]

Well, not really. Bosh started 63 of 75 games played in his rookie year and played 33.5 minutes.

Bargnani's minutes went down in year 2, and only this past season played as many minutes as Bosh's rookie year. Strangespot has a point.