Too Much for Kessel?

[albedo]

You jokers, calling it with 70 games to go, like Hall is already a Bruin.

So many people talking crap about Kessel like he isn't someone scouts have been salivating over for since he was a young teen. He turned 22 last month and he's already a goddamn sniper.

He scored 6 goals in 11 playoff games last year. Oh right, that was all thanks to Savard, right? I guess that's why Kovalchuk's been garbage since he left Atlanta.

He's gonna to score like a mother, he's gonna win shootouts by himself, and he'll be so much better than 16th and 20th picks. Hall won't fall that far, you British meatballs made of pork belly and offal.

[_venom_]

Well Kessel played his first game tonight and he was really impressive imo. His release is lightning quick and he knows how to get his shots. He's going to feast on Kaberle's passes on the powerplay once he gets into shape. I mean he could have easily had 2-3 goals tonight with some of his chances, but Nittimaki played really well.

And the Leafs continue to outplay teams and lose. Seriously, this team could easily be .500 with the way they've played but they can't catch a break. They always seem to miss a great chance to score and then it goes the other way and a bounce goes against them into the net. Gustavsson continues his solid play though.

Oh and please get May Stajan off this team. I'm so tired of watching this guy trip over his own feet anytime he gets a semi-decent scoring chance. Seriously, he must be the clumsiest hockey player ever.

[The Duke]

I mean he could have easily had 2-3 goals tonight with some of his chances, but Nittimaki played really well

This essentially still translates to... zero goals last nite.... lets not gloss over everything...

[Mike Hunt]

I think it's a good time to bring this back up. Kessel finisheds his first season with the Leafs and showed some of what people were expecting. Leafs ended up with the #2 pick.

[bryant08]

Tyler Seguin or Taylor Hall are likely to be Kessel level, yet younger and cheaper for the duration of their rookie contracts. Add in a high 2nd rounder this year and a first next year and the deal is awesome for Boston. It doesn't necessarily make it a bad deal for us, I think looking at the Boston mould you can see how important scoring is to the equation and what the Savard/Kessel combo meant to that team. Bottom line is Burke is moving aggressively to add building blocks to the team for now rather than waiting on prospects from the draft to develop. Will it pay off? Who knows, but rewind a year and tell me that for Stajan, White, Hagman, 2 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder we'll end up with Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf, I'm all over that. It's not a great way to evaluate a trade value wise, but I think it's at least interesting to see what's been accomplished so far. Plus at least our group is extremely young:

Dion Phaneuf (25)
Phil Kessel (22)
Nikolai Kulemin (23)
Tyler Bozak (24)
Nazem Kadri (19)
Luke Schenn (20)
Jonas Gustavsson (25)

And some more guys who could be part of the equation:

Carl Gunnarson (23)
Viktor Stalberg (24)
Luca Caputi (21)
Christian Hanson (24)
Mike Komisarek (28)
Francois Beauchemin (29)

Wow does Beauch look old for a 29 year old or what? But anyways, not all is grim in Leaf land. Burke says he's not interested in a 5 year rebuild, but it may end up taking that long for some of these guys to develop. I'm still excited by what's to come in Toronto, although I am impatient and am advocating signing a guy like Kovalchuk now, that type of move could be what kills this franchise in the future.

[Brew666]

Tyler Seguin or Taylor Hall are likely to be Kessel level, yet younger and cheaper for the duration of their rookie contracts. Add in a high 2nd rounder this year and a first next year and the deal is awesome for Boston. It doesn't necessarily make it a bad deal for us, I think looking at the Boston mould you can see how important scoring is to the equation and what the Savard/Kessel combo meant to that team. Bottom line is Burke is moving aggressively to add building blocks to the team for now rather than waiting on prospects from the draft to develop. Will it pay off? Who knows, but rewind a year and tell me that for Stajan, White, Hagman, 2 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder we'll end up with Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf, I'm all over that. It's not a great way to evaluate a trade value wise, but I think it's at least interesting to see what's been accomplished so far. Plus at least our group is extremely young:

Dion Phaneuf (25)
Phil Kessel (22)
Nikolai Kulemin (23)
Tyler Bozak (24)
Nazem Kadri (19)
Luke Schenn (20)
Jonas Gustavsson (25)

And some more guys who could be part of the equation:

Carl Gunnarson (23)
Viktor Stalberg (24)
Luca Caputi (21)
Christian Hanson (24)
Mike Komisarek (28)
Francois Beauchemin (29)

Wow does Beauch look old for a 29 year old or what? But anyways, not all is grim in Leaf land. Burke says he's not interested in a 5 year rebuild, but it may end up taking that long for some of these guys to develop. I'm still excited by what's to come in Toronto, although I am impatient and am advocating signing a guy like Kovalchuk now, that type of move could be what kills this franchise in the future.

In hindsight, I think the Kessel trade is extremely one-sided. I, like Burke, overestimated the team and the improvements made over last season and I'm sure if Burke could do it again, he probably wouldn't be offering two 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder for Kessel, but at this point in time, it really doesn't matter anymore.

I would prefer to have Seguin or Hall over Kessel but it doesn't take away what Kessel brings to the team. Our core compared to last year is vastly improved and I feel with this group, we'll be competitive for a playoff spot next year and many years to come

And there are others who be apart of the core as well:

Brayden Irwin (don't know much about him but he's a big body)
Joel Champagne (anyone know how he's recovering from that bad break?)
Jerry D'Amigo (had a good junior tourny with the States I believe)
Dale Mitchell (was good with the Gennies)
Mikhail Stefanovich (heard good things about him too)

I'm still excited by what's to come in Toronto, although I am impatient and am advocating signing a guy like Kovalchuk now, that type of move could be what kills this franchise in the future.

I don't think anyone would deny having a talent like Kovalchuk on their team but I don't think the timing is right for the Leafs yet. Kovie would take away minutes from our prospects (i.e Kadri) and it's not going to put us over the top and could translate to mediocrity, which of course Leaf nation is now accustomed to. Then again, imagine having Kovie, Kessel and a playmaking centre (Bozak?) as our top line...scary

[Relentless88]

Do you guys think Kadri will be/is as good as Hall/Seguin?

[Crowned]

I was one of the few that came away unimpressed with Seguin. I've seen a ton of OHL games this year, and he simply didn't excite me. I thought Kadri was much more dynamic than Seguin was, and certainly took over every game I saw him in. I'm not saying Kadri is going to be the better player (Seguin is younger with more upside), but we certainly selected a great player with Kadri. Seguin shows flashes of brilliance, and then dissappears. I saw him against Plymouth mid season, and he didn't create a single scoring chance all game (even though he was given the puck at every opportunity). I saw him against Windsor, and he was completely shut down.

If I'm Edmonton, I'm taking Hall. In all honesty, I'd take Kessel over Seguin long term...but the pick next year is where it hurts the most. I could live with a Seguin+2nd rounder for Kessel, but that pick next year looks to be as valuable as what it is now (before trades, FA signings this summer).

[Morris_Shatford]

While the value Boston is getting is certainly more then I ever would have expected;

The reality is in order to land a player of Kessel's level of talent, you need to give up assets.

Anyway that you slice it, Kessel is 22 with two 30 goal seasons under his belt.
That is a talent you can build around, and that is the sort of player who becomes a cornerstone for your franchise for the next decade.

Will Hall or Seguin become that sort of talent?
Perhaps, but do you really want to wait the two or three years to find out that they may not be?

If Burke had moved the picks for a guy closer to 30, I could understand the fanbases outrage, but Kessel has become the sort of talent you hope to secure when you have a top pick in the draft and he is still in his early 20's.

If next years pick is in the single digits, then the deal is a stellar value for the B's, but if its in the teens or 20's it will really depend on what sort of player Hall or Seguin become, and how much better Kessel gets.

[Brew666]

I was one of the few that came away unimpressed with Seguin...Seguin shows flashes of brilliance, and then dissappears. I saw him against Plymouth mid season, and he didn't create a single scoring chance all game (even though he was given the puck at every opportunity). I saw him against Windsor, and he was completely shut down.

If I'm Edmonton, I'm taking Hall. In all honesty, I'd take Kessel over Seguin long term...but the pick next year is where it hurts the most.

Your assessment of Seguin reminds me of Tavares when he was with the Generals. I saw quite a few Gennies games and like Seguin, flashes of brilliance and then dissappears. I thought Tavares was overrated but watching him step up at the Juniors last year and this year in the NHL, I was obviously wrong. I'm wondering if it's the same with Seguin, and the flashes of brilliance/dissappearing act is more indicative of other factors such as wanting to play on a bigger stage or the inconsistency of many players at that age.

I could live with a Seguin+2nd rounder for Kessel, but that pick next year looks to be as valuable as what it is now (before trades, FA signings this summer).

Good point, people are already talking that the FA market doesn't have a lot to offer the Leafs and that Burke will have to find other ways to improve the team. It's bad enough that we gave up the #2 pick this year, but with injuries and the fact that the current team finished 29th, we could be giving Boston another top pick!

[Brew666]

While the value Boston is getting is certainly more then I ever would have expected;

The reality is in order to land a player of Kessel's level of talent, you need to give up assets.

Anyway that you slice it, Kessel is 22 with two 30 goal seasons under his belt.
That is a talent you can build around, and that is the sort of player who becomes a cornerstone for your franchise for the next decade.

I agree that you have to give up assets to gain assets but wasn't Boston against the wall with their cap situation? Burke didn't have to rush the trade because Kessel was injured and I feel that is the biggest fault. Imagine if Burke waited a month later. Do you think he would've made an effort to maybe protect the current pick? Maybe not or maybe he throws Kabs and next years 1st at Boston?

Will Hall or Seguin become that sort of talent?
Perhaps, but do you really want to wait the two or three years to find out that they may not be

Yes, we're trying to build a competitive franchise not team. Two or three years is not a long wait for the type of talent that Hall or Seguin are supposed to be.

[hsb]

Nashville was offering the same deal at the time.

[Mike Hunt]

Nashville was offering the same deal at the time.

There were rumours of this, but I don't think it was ever officially acknowledged by Nashville. The general sense at the time was that Toronto made such a big play for Kessel that no other team would be in the running.

Even if Nashville had offered the same deal, they wouldn't have been giving the same value for Kessel. Nashville are perrenially in the playoff hunt. Toronto hasn't been there in 5 years. Had Nashville struck a deal, they'd be theoretically giving 2 picks in the teens and one in the 40s. I still think that might be a little too much value for a Kessel (pre-cap I probably wouldn't have). Toronto's best case scenario at the time was giving up that kind of value (if everything fell into place just right and by some miracle, their underperforming goalie or rookie free-agent signee could play at a borderline all-star level). Realistically, they had to know they might even be looking at giving up a top-5 this year and more likely than not, a pick somewhere between 5-10.

To me it was a combination of two bad over-evaluations. A) Burke's assessment that his team SHOULD compete for the playoffs was way off. His team's best case scenario was the playoffs, but it was a reach. B) Burke gave superstar value for a guy who is very good, but won't be a superstar (Kessel will likely be anywhere from 65-80 points / 30-40 goals each season. Very good numbers, just not great).

I'm not a Burke hater. I actually liked the value he gave for Phaneuf (a worthwile "gamble"). I liked the Giguerre trade too. I liked a lot of what he did while in Vancouver too (especially manipulating the draft to get the Sedins). I just think this was a really bad trade, at the least opportune time. His team was bad. Fans knew it was bad. The media knew it was bad. He was lauded as the best GM to take over this bad team. Unlike any other GM, he came in with absolutely no pressure to make the playoffs. Fans and media alike were saying things like: "Brian Burke is taking over a horrible team. He will need 4 years just to undo the mistakes of the past and start building the team in his image, etc.". Then, he goes out and pulls off a deal to try to make the playoffs this year (just like every other GM in recent team history). Granted, he at least did so with a young player, but the fact remains, the team is just as far from their goal and that young player is compensated much better than the other potential younger players the team could have added.

[Griff83]

While the value Boston is getting is certainly more then I ever would have expected;

The reality is in order to land a player of Kessel's level of talent, you need to give up assets.

Anyway that you slice it, Kessel is 22 with two 30 goal seasons under his belt.
That is a talent you can build around, and that is the sort of player who becomes a cornerstone for your franchise for the next decade.

Will Hall or Seguin become that sort of talent?
Perhaps, but do you really want to wait the two or three years to find out that they may not be?

If Burke had moved the picks for a guy closer to 30, I could understand the fanbases outrage, but Kessel has become the sort of talent you hope to secure when you have a top pick in the draft and he is still in his early 20's.

If next years pick is in the single digits, then the deal is a stellar value for the B's, but if its in the teens or 20's it will really depend on what sort of player Hall or Seguin become, and how much better Kessel gets.

I hate this argument. People make it seem like top 3 picks take 2-3 years to even make a impact nowaydays. Just look at Matt Duchene who was picked #3 overall this past draft. He came in right away and made plenty of impact. In fact he wasnt that much inferior to Kessel this season. Tavares although was very inconsistant still ended up potting 25 goals and giving you 50+ points. The notion that it takes elite top of the draft prospects 2-3 years to come into the NHL and become impact players is wrong, especially in recent years.

[Crowned]

Neither Hall or Seguin is physically ready to make an impact next year in the NHL, they look to be as frail as Kadri.

[Griff83]

Neither Hall or Seguin is physically ready to make an impact next year in the NHL, they look to be as frail as Kadri.

Hall is bigger/stronger then Duchene was last year.

Sam Gagner stepped in right away and was impactfull in his first season and he's significantly smaller then Hall.

Patrick Kane stepped into the NHL right after going #1 and hes MUCH weaker physically then Hall and he was fine (72pts as a rookie).

This isnt the old NHL. The new officiating and the new rules allow players to step right into the league and be successfull if they can skate. Skating and endurance is much more important nowadays to instant success then strength/size. Sure for Hall/Seguin to fully reach there ceiling they will have to put on weight/strength but they can still be impactfull at there current size in year one.

I fully expect Hall to play in the NHL next season and up around 45-50 points. Seguin will take longer as he is the lesser NHL ready player.

[The Duke]

C'mon lets not rationalize that if wasnt a bad move.
C'mon.........

[sh00n]

Probably the worst move in the last few years. Especially seeing as Boston will probably getting another top 5 pick next year, too.

[bryant08]

Probably the worst move in the last few years. Especially seeing as Boston will probably getting another top 5 pick next year, too.

Do you really find the need to be looking at threads about Phil Kessel when your team is playing in the second round tonight?

[sh00n]

Probably the worst move in the last few years. Especially seeing as Boston will probably getting another top 5 pick next year, too.

Do you really find the need to be looking at threads about Phil Kessel when your team is playing in the second round tonight?

Do you really find the need to be looking at threads about Phil Kessel when your team is pl... oops.