Retro POY '08-09

[drza]

as for Dwight, I think you have to understand how APM stats function. there's some way to adjust those numbers but in the end you have to consider that backups do have impact on your performance. Gortat IMO is one of the best centers in the league (and certainly was that in his CY last year) so you have to take those numbers with a grain of salt.

more importantly, as much as he struggled offensively vs Celtics and vs Lakers, he was extremely dominant against the Cavs. he averaged like 26/13 and 70% TS (forgot exact numbers) and obviously was providing his DPOY defense in the meantime. and even when he wasn't dominant offensively against other teams, he still had excellent impact on opp defenses with his presence inside. Magic's system was based on the opps collapsing on Dwight inside so that's how they had so many 3s. I feel like stats strongly misrepresent his overall value. in the end, his team was top of the league defensively and his teammates were Turkoglu, Lewis and Nelson (give me a break anybody ?), none of whom are known for playing good defense (and then you have to consider that Turkoglu's one of the members of the worst defensive team in '10).

You have some interesting against the grain takes in this post, but I would rebut some of your logic. You are right that your backup factors into the equation. That said, we're arguing whether Howard was among the two best players in the NBA last season or whether he was "just" top five. Gortat was solid, but he doesn't belong anywhere near that exalted level of company. And if the team generally performed at a similar level with Gortat as opposed to Howard (not just "they won, so it's the same", I mean on a game-to-game basis there wasn't a glaring advantage to how the team performed with Howard) then I do have to at least question whether some of Howard's box score stats are not quite as valuable as they might look (like that 2008 study concluded).

Also, I find your examples of when he played well and when he didn't extremely telling. Howard struggled against Boston (Perkins, no KG) and LA (Gasol, injured Bynum, Odom) but exploited the heck out of slow-footed Ilgauskas and Cleveland. Later in the post you mention Varejao, but my recollection was that generally when Varejao was in the game and on Howard the Cavs would make their runs, then Brown would put Z back on Howard and the game would fall apart again. Nevertheless, the emergent pattern to me is that Howard could dominate lesser centers but struggled against teams with actual solid frontlines. Considering that one of the main arguments that detractors use against Howard is that he is only elite due to the dearth of quality centers in the league, the fact that his postseason performance last year seemed to support that criticism is a strike to me.

as for LeBron, his stats may have been great, but you have to take the context into account. he started the playoffs by playing against mentally collapsed Detroit Pistons that had finished the RS in an embarrassing fashion. then, he played against physically collapsed Atlanta that had relied on their starters to win in the RS, but now that Horford, Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams were flat out injured and the other guys were pretty banged up as well, they had nothing to showcase against the Cavs. that's a great way to padd your stats and the main reason Cleveland was so overrated before the Magic series started.

then James played against a serious playoff team for the first time and Cleveland failed immediately. for those who don't wanna give Dwight any credit for that series and handle LeBron the POY right away, consider this: IIRC Cleveland was twice winning by 20 points or more in the first two games. first time the Magic came back and won, the second time LeBron hit that shot to rescue their series. how much can we blame LeBron for this ? I mean those two games were basically won and LeBron let them win. blaming Mo and Delonte for playing really bad is one thing, but when your team is already up by 20, you CAN'T lose when you're as good as James.

also, how can you give LeBron the credit for his great defense when it was no longer the case in the playoffs ? the whole season for Cleveland basically started in the ECFs. they faced crap before and the east was pretty much terrible last year anyway (KG went down, Atlanta was a lottery team after the injuries etc). the only opponent that's worth mentioning was Orlando. now whether you like it or not, James defense was horrendous during that series and it's possibly the biggest joke ever to give him runner-up DPOY after you watch that series. not only that James was hidden on Rafer freaking Alston AKA the worst starting PG on finals team, but also Alston torched him twice in that series. I forgot which game that was, but he had like 25-pt game and 17-pt game at some point. those were 2 crucial games that let Magic won the series. LeBron being great offensively on one end is one thing, but when he was pretty much a liability on defense, it's something you have to take into account.

As someone else has pointed out, I see gross double standards applied here vs the way you addressed Howard and Kobe. LeBron and Howard both dominated the regular season against possibly inferior game-in/game-out competition, but individually LeBron's postseason was much better than Howard's. As mentioned above, Howard struggled individually in both of the series where he faced legitimate frontlines, losing one series and frankly almost losing in the other against a Celtics team that had no business even remaining competitive. LeBron, on the other hand, demolished every defender and defense put in his path. The Magic were a horrifying matchup for them, and that's not just revisionist history...before the series began and/or one game in there were several analysts (including me) that pointed out how the Magic squad was built to take advantage of every Cavs weakness. I thought that it wouldn't matter, that somehow LeBron would "will" his team to victory, but the more and more I "grow up" as a basketball analyst the more I find that such things rarely REALLY happen...I grew up being sold that they did, but when you go back and look there is much more often a solid basketball reason besides "will" to account for the majority of wins.

as for Bryant, I think he's generally overrated. I think he doesn't have the tools to compete with the likes of Hakeem, Magic etc on ATL. that being said, he's being overlooked in this thread. have you forgotten yet the "bad mofo" face against the Nuggets ? have you forgotten how he played against Battier/Artest combo in the 2nd Round ? the "hand in the face" shots he made consistently against picture-perfect defense of Battier ? have you forgotten how inspired the Lakers were in ALL statement games ? have you forgotten the 35/6/7 Kobe (or smth like that) in the WCFs ? have you forgotten how far they were from losing in those playoffs ? they pretty much demolished every statement game that year and Bryant was clearly the best player on by-far the best team. I'm gonna credit him for that... and he won the title as well.

I mean... what could he have done more ? put up better stats when you have Gasol, Odom and Bynum on your team ? do you really think it was the most important thing. Bryant dominated in the playoffs like nobody else.

When it comes to Kobe's postseason performance, I am torn. He did personally enough for his team to win, but the team wasn't overly impressive in doing so and circumstances conspired to prevent him from having to face what should have been his toughest tests. For a personal example to you, I remember you arguing in the past that Duncan's 2003 championship run wasn't quite as legendary as it is sometimes made out to be because he went through a Laker's team where Kobe was hurt, then Webber and Dirk both went down with major injuries that paved the way for him to go through lesser competition. I actually agree with that assessment, but that's besides the point...the point is that if you're going to note that as a negative for Duncan (who also posted consistently absurd numbers that postseason), then you have to do the same for Kobe. They beat two reasonable but uninspiring teams (Utah and Denver), got gift wrapped a Houston team without their two best players but still got taken to 7 games, and then got to face the least of the 3 Eastern contenders as far as matching up with that team. Garnett's injury and LeBron's cast difficulties with the Magic paved the way for Kobe's Lakers.

Now, as I put in my post on the first page of this thread, I give Kobe some bonus points for leading his team to the title no matter what the circumstances are. But he was well behind LeBron going in, and his performance as an individual doesn't garner nearly enough bonus points to overcome that gap for me.

[lorak]

as for Dwight, I think you have to understand how APM stats function. there's some way to adjust those numbers but in the end you have to consider that backups do have impact on your performance. Gortat IMO is one of the best centers in the league (and certainly was that in his CY last year) so you have to take those numbers with a grain of salt.

Gortat doesn’t matter when we look at Dwight’s APM.

IIRC Cleveland was twice winning by 20 points or more in the first two games.

I think that people who give false information shouldn’t be allowed to vote….
Because Cleveland never lead by 20 or more point in game 1. Never.
Their highest lead was after first quarter, but at the beginning of the second, when Magic cut the lead, LeBron was sitting on the bench.

After three quarters Cavs lead by 4, but again - at the beginning of the fourth LJ was sitting at the bench and Magic cut the lead, and even go ahead by one point. So LeBron came back when Cavs were down one point, because they lost lead without him. He then scored 10 pts (4/6 FG) and had 2 assists. He also saved ball (won jumpball) after West's missed potential game winning shot (LeBron’s drive created good position for him, but he missed wide open J).

In game 2 Cavs lead by +20 for a moment and lose that lead, but they still won the game because of incredible James shot, so it silly to hold it as argument against him.

[ronnymac2]

as for Dwight, I think you have to understand how APM stats function. there's some way to adjust those numbers but in the end you have to consider that backups do have impact on your performance. Gortat IMO is one of the best centers in the league (and certainly was that in his CY last year) so you have to take those numbers with a grain of salt.

more importantly, as much as he struggled offensively vs Celtics and vs Lakers, he was extremely dominant against the Cavs. he averaged like 26/13 and 70% TS (forgot exact numbers) and obviously was providing his DPOY defense in the meantime. and even when he wasn't dominant offensively against other teams, he still had excellent impact on opp defenses with his presence inside. Magic's system was based on the opps collapsing on Dwight inside so that's how they had so many 3s. I feel like stats strongly misrepresent his overall value. in the end, his team was top of the league defensively and his teammates were Turkoglu, Lewis and Nelson (give me a break anybody ?), none of whom are known for playing good defense (and then you have to consider that Turkoglu's one of the members of the worst defensive team in '10).

You have some interesting against the grain takes in this post, but I would rebut some of your logic. You are right that your backup factors into the equation. That said, we're arguing whether Howard was among the two best players in the NBA last season or whether he was "just" top five. Gortat was solid, but he doesn't belong anywhere near that exalted level of company. And if the team generally performed at a similar level with Gortat as opposed to Howard (not just "they won, so it's the same", I mean on a game-to-game basis there wasn't a glaring advantage to how the team performed with Howard) then I do have to at least question whether some of Howard's box score stats are not quite as valuable as they might look (like that 2008 study concluded).

Also, I find your examples of when he played well and when he didn't extremely telling. Howard struggled against Boston (Perkins, no KG) and LA (Gasol, injured Bynum, Odom) but exploited the heck out of slow-footed Ilgauskas and Cleveland. Later in the post you mention Varejao, but my recollection was that generally when Varejao was in the game and on Howard the Cavs would make their runs, then Brown would put Z back on Howard and the game would fall apart again. Nevertheless, the emergent pattern to me is that Howard could dominate lesser centers but struggled against teams with actual solid frontlines. Considering that one of the main arguments that detractors use against Howard is that he is only elite due to the dearth of quality centers in the league, the fact that his postseason performance last year seemed to support that criticism is a strike to me.

as for LeBron, his stats may have been great, but you have to take the context into account. he started the playoffs by playing against mentally collapsed Detroit Pistons that had finished the RS in an embarrassing fashion. then, he played against physically collapsed Atlanta that had relied on their starters to win in the RS, but now that Horford, Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams were flat out injured and the other guys were pretty banged up as well, they had nothing to showcase against the Cavs. that's a great way to padd your stats and the main reason Cleveland was so overrated before the Magic series started.

then James played against a serious playoff team for the first time and Cleveland failed immediately. for those who don't wanna give Dwight any credit for that series and handle LeBron the POY right away, consider this: IIRC Cleveland was twice winning by 20 points or more in the first two games. first time the Magic came back and won, the second time LeBron hit that shot to rescue their series. how much can we blame LeBron for this ? I mean those two games were basically won and LeBron let them win. blaming Mo and Delonte for playing really bad is one thing, but when your team is already up by 20, you CAN'T lose when you're as good as James.

also, how can you give LeBron the credit for his great defense when it was no longer the case in the playoffs ? the whole season for Cleveland basically started in the ECFs. they faced crap before and the east was pretty much terrible last year anyway (KG went down, Atlanta was a lottery team after the injuries etc). the only opponent that's worth mentioning was Orlando. now whether you like it or not, James defense was horrendous during that series and it's possibly the biggest joke ever to give him runner-up DPOY after you watch that series. not only that James was hidden on Rafer freaking Alston AKA the worst starting PG on finals team, but also Alston torched him twice in that series. I forgot which game that was, but he had like 25-pt game and 17-pt game at some point. those were 2 crucial games that let Magic won the series. LeBron being great offensively on one end is one thing, but when he was pretty much a liability on defense, it's something you have to take into account.

As someone else has pointed out, I see gross double standards applied here vs the way you addressed Howard and Kobe. LeBron and Howard both dominated the regular season against possibly inferior game-in/game-out competition, but individually LeBron's postseason was much better than Howard's. As mentioned above, Howard struggled individually in both of the series where he faced legitimate frontlines, losing one series and frankly almost losing in the other against a Celtics team that had no business even remaining competitive. LeBron, on the other hand, demolished every defender and defense put in his path. The Magic were a horrifying matchup for them, and that's not just revisionist history...before the series began and/or one game in there were several analysts (including me) that pointed out how the Magic squad was built to take advantage of every Cavs weakness. I thought that it wouldn't matter, that somehow LeBron would "will" his team to victory, but the more and more I "grow up" as a basketball analyst the more I find that such things rarely REALLY happen...I grew up being sold that they did, but when you go back and look there is much more often a solid basketball reason besides "will" to account for the majority of wins.

as for Bryant, I think he's generally overrated. I think he doesn't have the tools to compete with the likes of Hakeem, Magic etc on ATL. that being said, he's being overlooked in this thread. have you forgotten yet the "bad mofo" face against the Nuggets ? have you forgotten how he played against Battier/Artest combo in the 2nd Round ? the "hand in the face" shots he made consistently against picture-perfect defense of Battier ? have you forgotten how inspired the Lakers were in ALL statement games ? have you forgotten the 35/6/7 Kobe (or smth like that) in the WCFs ? have you forgotten how far they were from losing in those playoffs ? they pretty much demolished every statement game that year and Bryant was clearly the best player on by-far the best team. I'm gonna credit him for that... and he won the title as well.

I mean... what could he have done more ? put up better stats when you have Gasol, Odom and Bynum on your team ? do you really think it was the most important thing. Bryant dominated in the playoffs like nobody else.

When it comes to Kobe's postseason performance, I am torn. He did personally enough for his team to win, but the team wasn't overly impressive in doing so and circumstances conspired to prevent him from having to face what should have been his toughest tests. For a personal example to you, I remember you arguing in the past that Duncan's 2003 championship run wasn't quite as legendary as it is sometimes made out to be because he went through a Laker's team where Kobe was hurt, then Webber and Dirk both went down with major injuries that paved the way for him to go through lesser competition. I actually agree with that assessment, but that's besides the point...the point is that if you're going to note that as a negative for Duncan (who also posted consistently absurd numbers that postseason), then you have to do the same for Kobe. They beat two reasonable but uninspiring teams (Utah and Denver), got gift wrapped a Houston team without their two best players but still got taken to 7 games, and then got to face the least of the 3 Eastern contenders as far as matching up with that team. Garnett's injury and LeBron's cast difficulties with the Magic paved the way for Kobe's Lakers.

Now, as I put in my post on the first page of this thread, I give Kobe some bonus points for leading his team to the title no matter what the circumstances are. But he was well behind LeBron going in, and his performance as an individual doesn't garner nearly enough bonus points to overcome that gap for me.

Fantastic post.

Bastillion- I can just as well argue that Dwight caused the Magic to lose on the biggest stage. I mean, the premier C in the league going up against a 6 point, 4 rebound C in Bynum, a dumb, inconsistent player in Odom, and Mr. Softie in Gasol...and he puts up 16 ppg on less than 50% shooting (dramatic decline from regular season performance), misses clutch free throws, and averages less than 3 assists per game but 4 turnovers per game. And the Lakers offense looked just fine against Orlando, so where was Dwight's defensive impact in the series? I can argue he was outplayed by Pau Gasol.

If Dwight outplayed Lebron, Pau outplayed Dwight. (Hint: Dwight didn't outplay Lebron).

Anyway...since everybody is voting now.....

1.) Lebron
2.) Wade
3.) Kobe
4.) Dwight
5.) Chris Paul

Duncan and Dirk were very close.

[Silver Bullet]

Pretty homogeneous mix so far -

I wish we wouldn't focus on statistics so much, but I suppose there aren't many alternatives.
Just a few smattering of thoughts:

- I'm on the fence with Paul. His statistics are always impeccable, yet I always have this vibe from him, that he dominates the ball way too much than is healthy for a contending team. I mean, if you look at either Nash or Deron, they're not within touching distance of Paul statistically. Yet, I personally think they both run their respective teams better. (Not saying, I'm penalizing Paul for this, I wouldn't mind hearing arguments both ways)

- A few names that might get overlooked when we're focusing too much on statistics:
Nowitzki: The guy was a monster in the playoffs, no one thought they could get by the Spurs, yet they did, with relative ease.

Duncan: Always gets overlooked if we go by statistics only. Defensive impact is still unmeasurable.

Melo: Had to totally change his game right at the start of the season to accommodate Billups. Took his team to the conference finals and was a virtually unstoppable scorer at times. Played probably the best defense of his life in the conference finals.

- Compiled some stats for players performances vs "Good" teams compared to performances against "Poor" teams.
Source: http://www.82games.com/0809/COM4S0.HTM



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Hey SB - do you have the z-scores for these numbers instead of raw data? Looks like a lot of standard variance in those numbers...

No Z-Scores, and I don't think they're relevant. I just posted the link, I took the numbers from. It's just the numbers against good teams minus the numbers against the poor teams. Not my numbers, all I did was subtract one from the other.

[bastillon]

I agree with most of your responses. if I don't answer specific points you made, it means that probably I acknowledged your points and see no reason to still argue against it.

Also, I find your examples of when he played well and when he didn't extremely telling. Howard struggled against Boston (Perkins, no KG) and LA (Gasol, injured Bynum, Odom) but exploited the heck out of slow-footed Ilgauskas and Cleveland. Later in the post you mention Varejao, but my recollection was that generally when Varejao was in the game and on Howard the Cavs would make their runs, then Brown would put Z back on Howard and the game would fall apart again. Nevertheless, the emergent pattern to me is that Howard could dominate lesser centers but struggled against teams with actual solid frontlines. Considering that one of the main arguments that detractors use against Howard is that he is only elite due to the dearth of quality centers in the league, the fact that his postseason performance last year seemed to support that criticism is a strike to me.

if your argument applies to Dwight, why don't you use it in LeBron's case ? as much as Howard regressed vs more accomplished competition, LeBron never had to face that in the first place. first two rounds he faced either mentally or physically broken teams that had no business being in the playoffs. once he played against Magic, he was guarding the worst offensive player of either team (Alston) on one end, only to be defended by the worst defensive player of either team (Turkoglu) on the other. doesn't this tell you a lot about the competition ? I'd argue Howard's counterparts still remained competitive and quality players in this league, while what LeBron had to deal with wasn't exactly stunning either, and in fact, was worse than Howard's opponents.

The Magic were a horrifying matchup for them, and that's not just revisionist history...before the series began and/or one game in there were several analysts (including me) that pointed out how the Magic squad was built to take advantage of every Cavs weakness.

was it THAT bad though ? before the series many expected the Cavs to dominate the Magic, because of small ball that Magic didn't have an answer to. LeBron didn't guard Rashard though and he had himself a great series (IIRC like 20 PPG and high TS%, and more importantly, timely contributions). the other guy that caused matchup problems was Turkoglu being guarded by Delonte. this, again, isn't fault of Cleveland being improperly built, but by LeBron matching up against weaker offensive player. I don't think it was as much of matchup problem as it was LeBron disappointing defensively. Turkoglu and Rashard should've been locked down by Bron the way runner-up DPOY is expected to do.

the point is that if you're going to note that as a negative for Duncan (who also posted consistently absurd numbers that postseason), then you have to do the same for Kobe.

I don't want this to turn into Kobe/Duncan debate, but your (or actually mine) criterion doesn't refer to Kobe as much as it does to Timmy.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=966764&p=21571300#p21571300
the difference is quite large. Kobe's matchups were Brewer/AK, Battier/Artest (!!), Jones/JR/Melo, Lee/Pietrus. Duncan played against Samaki Walker/Horry, Najera, Kenyon and Amare. as for as the team competition goes, even bigger gap exists. you can make a strong case that either of Lakers opponents could win a championship that year (if they replaced SAS)... I don't wanna bash those teams again, just look at the link I provided. it was historically inept competition as the Nets were the 2nd best team that year and they'd have trouble making the playoffs on the west today.

They beat two reasonable but uninspiring teams (Utah and Denver), got gift wrapped a Houston team without their two best players but still got taken to 7 games, and then got to face the least of the 3 Eastern contenders as far as matching up with that team. Garnett's injury and LeBron's cast difficulties with the Magic paved the way for Kobe's Lakers.

first of all, I'm questioning Tmac's impact at this point. I think he'd make them worse, not better.

anyway, (I wanted to say this right away, but I wanted to clarify this Duncan situation) if Kobe's championship competition wasn't as good as you'd expect (injuries to KG, Manu, Yao, Hawks etc), then you should penalize him... in year-to-year comparisons, which is not the case here.

it doesn't take anything away from Kobe if we're ranking players within the same year, because they got to face the same opponents. Kobe's opponents may have been unimpressive/"uninspired", but at the same time you have to consider he beat the Magic 4-1, whereas LeBron lost 2-4 to them. in Kobe/LeBron debate this argument doesn't work.

[Silver Bullet]

as for LeBron, his stats may have been great, but you have to take the context into account. he started the playoffs by playing against mentally collapsed Detroit Pistons that had finished the RS in an embarrassing fashion. then, he played against physically collapsed Atlanta that had relied on their starters to win in the RS, but now that Horford, Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams were flat out injured and the other guys were pretty banged up as well, they had nothing to showcase against the Cavs. that's a great way to padd your stats and the main reason Cleveland was so overrated before the Magic series started.

then James played against a serious playoff team for the first time and Cleveland failed immediately. for those who don't wanna give Dwight any credit for that series and handle LeBron the POY right away, consider this: IIRC Cleveland was twice winning by 20 points or more in the first two games. first time the Magic came back and won, the second time LeBron hit that shot to rescue their series. how much can we blame LeBron for this ? I mean those two games were basically won and LeBron let them win. blaming Mo and Delonte for playing really bad is one thing, but when your team is already up by 20, you CAN'T lose when you're as good as James.

also, how can you give LeBron the credit for his great defense when it was no longer the case in the playoffs ? the whole season for Cleveland basically started in the ECFs. they faced crap before and the east was pretty much terrible last year anyway (KG went down, Atlanta was a lottery team after the injuries etc). the only opponent that's worth mentioning was Orlando. now whether you like it or not, James defense was horrendous during that series and it's possibly the biggest joke ever to give him runner-up DPOY after you watch that series. not only that James was hidden on Rafer freaking Alston AKA the worst starting PG on finals team, but also Alston torched him twice in that series. I forgot which game that was, but he had like 25-pt game and 17-pt game at some point. those were 2 crucial games that let Magic won the series. LeBron being great offensively on one end is one thing, but when he was pretty much a liability on defense, it's something you have to take into account.

as for Bryant, I think he's generally overrated. I think he doesn't have the tools to compete with the likes of Hakeem, Magic etc on ATL. that being said, he's being overlooked in this thread. have you forgotten yet the "bad mofo" face against the Nuggets ? have you forgotten how he played against Battier/Artest combo in the 2nd Round ? the "hand in the face" shots he made consistently against picture-perfect defense of Battier ? have you forgotten how inspired the Lakers were in ALL statement games ? have you forgotten the 35/6/7 Kobe (or smth like that) in the WCFs ? have you forgotten how far they were from losing in those playoffs ? they pretty much demolished every statement game that year and Bryant was clearly the best player on by-far the best team. I'm gonna credit him for that... and he won the title as well.

I mean... what could he have done more ? put up better stats when you have Gasol, Odom and Bynum on your team ? do you really think it was the most important thing. Bryant dominated in the playoffs like nobody else.

1.Kobe
2.Dwight
I know this isn't very popular view, but as far as I'm concerned he outplayed LeBron in that series when you consider James defense. Dwight also dominated against Varejao and Ilgauskas, both good-to-very good defenders. James had his 40-pt games vs Hedo "I make Raps fans hate the entire country of Turkey" Turkoglu with Magic gameplan focused to stop everyone else BUT LeBron. oh, and don't forget the star bonus which was easily comparable to Wade in '06... 20 FTA/game ? shooting free throws after you have your jumpshot blocked ? please.
3.LeBron
4.Nowitzki
5.Wade
Dwyane played uninspired basketball in the playoffs. Dirk pretty much everything he could've done to help his team win... but you can only go so far with Kidd and Terry when both are being dominated by their counterparts. Wade also played against injured team, making it easier for him to put up stats. Dirk played vs Kenyon Martin, one of the best man defenders in the game.

There's some conjecture and unsubstantiated opinions here which I'll leave alone. In general, I'm not sure we should be judging seasons based on faces and picture perfect jumpers.

Let's start with the season starting in the ECF. How good would a team have to be for their season to start in the FInal 4? Who gets credit for that? Mo Williams? Delonte West?

And how exactly did LeBron "let them" win when he had 49 points on 71% TS, 8 assists and 6 rebounds? What did he have to do with Orlando hitting 7 of its last 11 3's, Howard scoring 30, Lewis making two shots in the waning moments and overcoming a 15 point lead? He also set up West for 3 to take the lead, then converted a 3-point play to take the lead again, all in the final 40 seconds of the game. I'm not seeing how that's "letting a team win..."

RE: his defense, he had 3 blocks on layups and 2 steals alone in G1. That's a lot of value just on those 5 possessions. If we're blaming that guy, then how would it ever be possible to play a good game and lose?

In one sentence you downgrade LeBron by railing on the Hawks (despite 4 double-digit wins), and then praise Kobe for beating Aaron Brooks, Ron Artest and Luis Scola in 7, when Kobe had a subpar series.

Seems to me you aren't holding these players to even remotely the same standards.

Totally totally disagree. The way people have been voting so far, it seems like they don't watch the NBA at all. You guys have been focusing on Statistics wayyy too much.

For example, sure the Rockets were without T-Mac and Yao towards the end, but they played impeccable defense. Nothing anyone in the East put up comes even in the same stratosphere. Why should we expect Kobe not to struggle against Battier and Artest - I mean, that is a ridiculous expectation. Battier plays Kobe better than any other guy in the World, better than Bowen or Artest ever did. And then you're getting help from Artest. I mean what is with the dig at Brooks and Scola ? sure they're not big names, but if Aaron Brooks hits a clutch 3, it's still a clutch 3.

So yeah, I think perfect angry faces and clutch 3's should count a lot more, because your focus has been solely on Statistics. If you went by statistics alone, then Nash, Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, Iverson et. all would have zero MVPS and you'd think Deron Williams was closer to Jose Caledron than he's to Chris Paul.

[Sedale Threatt]

It continues to blow my mind how anyone, for any reason, can blame James for Cleveland's outster last year. I keep coming back to the same thing -- what more could he have done? I just don't see any possible criterion where he wasn't the best player in the league last year. Maybe if he'd been poor in that series, but he was anything but. He was simply head and shoulders above the competition, just like this year.

[drza]

it doesn't take anything away from Kobe if we're ranking players within the same year, because they got to face the same opponents. Kobe's opponents may have been unimpressive/"uninspired", but at the same time you have to consider he beat the Magic 4-1, whereas LeBron lost 2-4 to them. in Kobe/LeBron debate this argument doesn't work.

Yeah, but (as both of us often preach) you have to look at teammates as well. "Kobe" didn't beat the Magic, the Lakers did. And as we've already acknowledged, the Gasol-led Laker frontline did a job on Howard that Ilgauskas simply couldn't. Ariza was able to defend at least one of Lewis/Turk in a way that the 6'4 Delonte West couldn't. There was nothing to suggest that Kobe played better as an individual against the Magic than LeBron did, but there is an awful lot to support that Kobe's TEAMMATES played much better against the Magic than LeBron's did. Again, I know that you and I have used those types of arguments in support of KG and I've also seen you use them in favor of Hakeem. It doesn't seem right that now you suddenly ignore that factor when comparing Kobe and LeBron.

[bastillon]

It continues to blow my mind how anyone, for any reason, can blame James for Cleveland's outster last year. I keep coming back to the same thing -- what more could he have done? I just don't see any possible criterion where he wasn't the best player in the league last year. Maybe if he'd been poor in that series, but he was anything but. He was simply head and shoulders above the competition, just like this year.

defense would've been nice.

Bastillion- I can just as well argue that Dwight caused the Magic to lose on the biggest stage. I mean, the premier C in the league going up against a 6 point, 4 rebound C in Bynum, a dumb, inconsistent player in Odom, and Mr. Softie in Gasol...and he puts up 16 ppg on less than 50% shooting (dramatic decline from regular season performance), misses clutch free throws, and averages less than 3 assists per game but 4 turnovers per game. And the Lakers offense looked just fine against Orlando, so where was Dwight's defensive impact in the series? I can argue he was outplayed by Pau Gasol.

this is all true (except your example, by my logic Kobe outplayed Dwight, not Gasol as I didn't argue Lewis outplayed LeBron... see what I mean ?), but what's more valuable:
a) advancing to the finals and disappointing
b) not advancing to the finals at all

LeBron played horrendous against Spurs in 2007, but it's not true that he'd have been more impressive hadn't he gotten to the finals at all.

Duncan and Dirk were very close.

no they weren't. Duncan was injured in the playoffs and even had one game with 2 pts or smth. Spurs pretty much collapsed on Dirk every time down, resulting in consecutive 3s and eventually Spurs loss. I don't see how you can argue for Duncan in this case, when Dirk won the playoff matchup despite having lesser help (didn't TP have couple of 40-pt games ?)

[bastillon]

it doesn't take anything away from Kobe if we're ranking players within the same year, because they got to face the same opponents. Kobe's opponents may have been unimpressive/"uninspired", but at the same time you have to consider he beat the Magic 4-1, whereas LeBron lost 2-4 to them. in Kobe/LeBron debate this argument doesn't work.

Yeah, but (as both of us often preach) you have to look at teammates as well. "Kobe" didn't beat the Magic, the Lakers did. And as we've already acknowledged, the Gasol-led Laker frontline did a job on Howard that Ilgauskas simply couldn't. Ariza was able to defend at least one of Lewis/Turk in a way that the 6'4 Delonte West couldn't. There was nothing to suggest that Kobe played better as an individual against the Magic than LeBron did, but there is an awful lot to support that Kobe's TEAMMATES played much better against the Magic than LeBron's did. Again, I know that you and I have used those types of arguments in support of KG and I've also seen you use them in favor of Hakeem. It doesn't seem right that now you suddenly ignore that factor when comparing Kobe and LeBron.

ok, now I see your point, but it's entirely different thing than what you argued in the last post.

I thought we're doing basically one-year ATL here so we value accomplishments and not using the what-ifs. if not, then I acknowledge your point.

at the same time I think you have into account the defensive scheme Magic used against Cavs and Lakers. their gameplan was to let LeBron get his and stop everyone else (and even their coaching staff said that openly). against Lakers they wanted to stop Kobe from efficient scoring and not focus on the rest. that's why you saw Kobe's assist skyrocket in the finals and LeBron's go down.

another thing is that LeBron had very comfortable situation, because Magic had whole lot of nothing to put up against him, but they did have two excellent 2-guards against the Lakers. imagine LeBron's playing against Iguodala and Kobe vs Redick. how would their stats look like then ?

[Silver Bullet]

It continues to blow my mind how anyone, for any reason, can blame James for Cleveland's outster last year. I keep coming back to the same thing -- what more could he have done? I just don't see any possible criterion where he wasn't the best player in the league last year. Maybe if he'd been poor in that series, but he was anything but. He was simply head and shoulders above the competition, just like this year.

I don't know if bastillion is blaming James for losing the Magic, I certainly am not. But he does point out, that they didn't really play any good teams until the Magic. And the only good team they did play, they lost to.

I am certainly still leaning towards James, but it is a bit closer than I started out with.

I mean, sure, Kobe didn't have stellar playoffs if you went by statistics, but if you remember Battier and Artest and then Jones and Melo hounding him the way they did, you know that Bryant played remarkably well and should get a load of credit for winning the championship.

[JordansBulls]

People forget the Cavs were up 20+ points in every home game in that series vs Orlando as well. How the hell do you get a 20 point lead every home game in a series and not have a good team especially in the conference?

[Sedale Threatt]

defense would've been nice.

So he didn't play any role whatsoever in Turkoglu having games of 4 for 11, 1 for 11, 5 for 13 and 3 for 12 in that series?

Besides, if my best player is putting up numbers like he did, I'm going to cut him some slack. Game 1 being a perfect example -- guy goes off for 49 on ridiculous efficiency, while his starting backcourt goes 10 for 32, and his starting center gets destroyed, and it's his fault they blew a 16-point lead.

I don't understand this.

[sp6r=underrated]

defense would've been nice.

So he didn't play any role whatsoever in Turkoglu having games of 4 for 11, 1 for 11, 5 for 13 and 3 for 12 in that series?

Besides, if my best player is putting up numbers like he did, I'm going to cut him some slack. Game 1 being a perfect example -- guy goes off for 49 on ridiculous efficiency, while his starting backcourt goes 10 for 32, and his starting center gets destroyed, and it's his fault they blew a 16-point lead.

I don't understand this.

Dirk obviously isn't playing as good, but the criticism Lebron received last year is similar to what Dirk is receiving this year.

[Sedale Threatt]

I mean, sure, Kobe didn't have stellar playoffs if you went by statistics, but if you remember Battier and Artest and then Jones and Melo hounding him the way they did, you know that Bryant played remarkably well and should get a load of credit for winning the championship.

Absolutely. Which is why I put him second.

[JordansBulls]

defense would've been nice.

So he didn't play any role whatsoever in Turkoglu having games of 4 for 11, 1 for 11, 5 for 13 and 3 for 12 in that series?

Besides, if my best player is putting up numbers like he did, I'm going to cut him some slack. Game 1 being a perfect example -- guy goes off for 49 on ridiculous efficiency, while his starting backcourt goes 10 for 32, and his starting center gets destroyed, and it's his fault they blew a 16-point lead.

I don't understand this.

Yes. When you pass the rock with 3-4 seconds left on the shot clock, how long do you expect to keep the lead?
Go back and watch the game especially the 4th quarter from the 3:30 -2:30 mark and you will even hear Doug Collins mention how Lebron has had the ball in his hands the entire game running the shot clock down.

Besides, every game Lebron scored 40+ in in that series they lost.

Fact is, Lebron can go off for 40+ against bad teams and beat them, but when he does it against good teams Cavs generally lose. Other guys need to be involved. This is why this is not a good thing what is going on against the Bulls this series because next series against the Celtics you will see what I mean.

[Sedale Threatt]

Dirk obviously isn't playing as good, but the criticism Lebron received last year is similar to what Dirk is receiving this year.

Yeah, I was getting pissed at him down the stretch of Game 4, because I badly want Dallas to beat the Spurs. Then I took a step back and saw they just weren't getting anything from anybody else.

[Sedale Threatt]

Yes. When you pass the rock with 3-4 seconds left on the shot clock, how long do you expect to keep the lead? Go back and watch the game especially the 4th quarter from the 3:30 -2:30 mark and you will even hear Doug Collins mention how Lebron has had the ball in his hands the entire game running the shot clock down.

Besides, every game Lebron scored 40+ in in that series they lost.

Fact is, Lebron can go off for 40+ against bad teams and beat them, but when he does it against good teams Cavs generally lose. Other guys need to be involved. This is why this is not a good thing what is going on against the Bulls this series because next series against the Celtics you will see what I mean.

So again, the fact that three quarters of the lineup didn't show up is his fault because he "didn't get them involved?" I'm sorry, but I don't buy that in the least. At some point, guys need to man up and accept responsibility for the fact they didn't do their jobs.

I mean, I know why you're going to go out of your way to knock him -- he's a threat to your idol's legacy -- but you of all people should know better. Jordan got the exact same criticism, being called a loser because he couldn't will guys like Brad Sellars and Sam Vincent past the Pistons.

It was stupid then, and it's stupid now.

[JordansBulls]

Yes. When you pass the rock with 3-4 seconds left on the shot clock, how long do you expect to keep the lead? Go back and watch the game especially the 4th quarter from the 3:30 -2:30 mark and you will even hear Doug Collins mention how Lebron has had the ball in his hands the entire game running the shot clock down.

Besides, every game Lebron scored 40+ in in that series they lost.

Fact is, Lebron can go off for 40+ against bad teams and beat them, but when he does it against good teams Cavs generally lose. Other guys need to be involved. This is why this is not a good thing what is going on against the Bulls this series because next series against the Celtics you will see what I mean.

So again, the fact that three quarters of the lineup didn't show up is his fault because he "didn't get them involved?" I'm sorry, but I don't buy that in the least. At some point, guys need to man up and accept responsibility for the fact they didn't do their jobs.


I mean, I know why you're going to go out of your way to knock him -- he's a threat to your idol's legacy -- but you of all people should know better. Jordan got the exact same criticism, being called a loser because he couldn't will guys like Brad Sellars and Sam Vincent past the Pistons.

It was stupid then, and it's stupid now.

Again how are they to get involved if they are getting the ball with 3-4 seconds left on the shot clock?

And besides down the stretch both Mo and West hit big 3's with less than 2 minutes left.

Like I said, you don't get a 20 point lead in every home game in the conference finals and not have a good team.

[Sedale Threatt]

Maybe the reason they had those leads in the first place was because they had an all-time great playing at the absolute top of his game.