Retro POY '08-09

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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#81 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:28 pm

Sometime you just have to ignore intellectually disingenuous arguments.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#82 » by bastillon » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:30 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
bastillon wrote:defense would've been nice.


So he didn't play any role whatsoever in Turkoglu having games of 4 for 11, 1 for 11, 5 for 13 and 3 for 12 in that series?


now I'm confused. did you even watch that series or you're just going by the numbers ? James didn't guard Turkoglu.

JB raised a good point too. I remember I argued against Cavs fans about the same thing last year. James was ballhogging and when Mo/Delonte were to shoot, it was little-to-no time to create anything.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#83 » by lorak » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:31 pm

JordansBulls wrote:People forget the Cavs were up 20+ points in every home game in that series vs Orlando as well.


That's a lie.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#84 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:32 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:Sometime you just have to ignore intellectually disingenuous arguments.


Yeah, I already voted, so it's not like I'm adding anything to the discussion. Double-standards just irritate the hell out of me.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#85 » by JordansBulls » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:32 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:Sometime you just have to ignore intellectually disingenuous arguments.


I agree. But let's consider some points.

1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.

3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.

Let's make something clear here, I never said Lebron played bad statistically in the series, however him defending the worst offensive player on the court on Orlando made for a bad strategy.

Because who was Lebron guarding the series? Was he not guarding Rafer Alston? Why is he guarding someone that doesn't play his position when the guy who plays his position is an offensive threat? Because of that that allowed Hedo to shoot over his man. Lebron has to take fault for that.

He could have easily taken Hedo out of the game especially when the Cavs were up 20+ points in each of it's 3 home games.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#86 » by JordansBulls » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:34 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:Sometime you just have to ignore intellectually disingenuous arguments.


Yeah, I already voted, so it's not like I'm adding anything to the discussion. Double-standards just irritate the hell out of me.
I


Totally agree. I don't like the double standards with Lebron or anyone that comes in young. When they do something good, they are hyped and said to be a top 5 player. But when something happens not good, it is they were too young or they were hurt a little bit.

This is why I always use the HCA factor, because it shows you were the superior team all along, but just didn't pull thru when needed the most.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#87 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:41 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:Sometime you just have to ignore intellectually disingenuous arguments.


I agree. But let's consider some points.

1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.


Is this true? I'm not calling you a liar but I don't remember every game having a 20 point a lead. My memory is crap so I could be wrong.

JordansBulls wrote:2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.


The Cavs defensive system is to use Lebron as a free safety type player for most of the game. It worked very well all season. You can make a case they should have made an adjustment. But that is more on Brown than LBJ.

JordansBulls wrote:3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.


I can remember MJ making passes at the end of games alot. A lot of his most famous plays were passes, that was part of his greatness. Furthermore, Lebron is in the middle point between an MJ and Magic. His job is to be a distributor as much as it is to score. I don't think you can criticize him here.

JordansBulls wrote:4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.


The Cavs did this all season with great success. The Cavs role players, if they played like they did in the RS, would have been part of the winning team.

JordansBulls wrote:5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.


Lulz.

JordansBulls wrote:Let's make something clear here, I never said Lebron played bad statistically in the series, however him defending the worst offensive player on the court on Orlando made for a bad strategy.

Because who was Lebron guarding the series? Was he not guarding Rafer Alston? Why is he guarding someone that doesn't play his position when the guy who plays his position is an offensive threat? Because of that that allowed Hedo to shoot over his man. Lebron has to take fault for that.

He could have easily taken Hedo out of the game especially when the Cavs were up 20+ points in each of it's 3 home games.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers


It is the coaches job to make strategy not a players. Furthermore that strategy was successful all year.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#88 » by Optimism Prime » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:47 pm

Not to draw attention away from bastillon, but can someone let me know if my posts are rational/thought-out enough to remain a voting member here? :)
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#89 » by drza » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:51 pm

Man, this Kobe/Wade choice is killing me. I'd like to go ahead and submit my vote, but every time I think I'm ready I flip-flop on Kobe and Wade. Here's my issue:

I think Wade was the better player last year, but not by much. The differences between them in the regular season were small enough that I can buy that Kobe wasn't pushing as hard (he didn't have to due to team circumstances, plus he's older so maybe was conserving for the postseason). And in the playoffs Wade wasn't quite as dominant as I think he could have been, as I don't see the Hawks as a super elite team that he had no chance against. If Wade would have turned in that same effort and pushed, say, a healthy Celtics team to 6 or 7 games I'd have had an easier time picking him over Kobe because I'd feel like he did everything humanly possible but just couldn't beat a stacked team.

But he didn't. And in the postseason Kobe and Wade performed on a very similar level. It may not be Wade's fault that he never got to play on the conference Finals/NBA Finals stage like Kobe did, but part of me does feel that Wade could have reasonably been expected to get his team past the Hawks in the first round. It would have been difficult because the Hawks were more talented top-to-bottom, but it wasn't enough of a difference that he just couldn't have done it.

And yet...if their roles were switched, I'm fairly certain that the Lakers would have still won the title and I'm not convinced that the Kobe-led Heat make it out of the first round either. It's not scientific, I know, but since my vote should reflect my opinion then this type of thought exercise is relevant to what my actual opinion is.

I'm still stuck. For now I'll go ahead and say that I've got:

1) LeBron
2) Wade or Kobe
3) Wade or Kobe
4) Howard
5) Dirk (his postseason trumped Paul's by a similar/larger margin than Paul trumped his regular season)

And I'll still have to ponder some more over who gets my #2 and #3 slots.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#90 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:52 pm

bastillon wrote:now I'm confused. did you even watch that series or you're just going by the numbers ? James didn't guard Turkoglu.


I did, but you caught me. I was trying to be right instead of being correct. So that's my bad.

bastillon wrote:JB raised a good point too. I remember I argued against Cavs fans about the same thing last year. James was ballhogging and when Mo/Delonte were to shoot, it was little-to-no time to create anything.


Maybe after all the bricks those two had tossed up all game, he figured he was the best option. Which he was.

It all goes back to my original statement, I guess. I see absolutely no logic in blaming the one guy who showed up for that series.

Especially when I know for a fact the teammate factor is going to be carted out when we get deep enough into this for the likes of Olajuwon and KG.

As several others have mentioned, I've seen you go to that card over and over and over again -- quite legitimately, I might add -- for those two, but in this situation it's thrown out.

My opinion about that series -- LeBron played at a GOAT level, and the rest of his team pretty much sucked a gigantic dick. I'm not going to hold that against him.

Back tracking to the Boston series the year before, or the 07 Finals? Absolutely. Those are black marks on his resume. But not last year.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#91 » by JordansBulls » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:59 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:
Is this true? I'm not calling you a liar but I don't remember every game having a 20 point a lead. My memory is crap so I could be wrong.



http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#92 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:00 pm

thanks for the links JB.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#93 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:02 pm

It's nitpicking, but Cleveland's biggest lead was 16 in Game 1. Look closer at the game summary on the right-hand side in the first link.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#94 » by Optimism Prime » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:08 pm

As far as the "Lebron played inferior competition, the Magic were the first good team he played" argument going on here... isn't that his reward for the best regular-season record? Why penalize him for that? :dontknow:
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#95 » by CzBoobie » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:09 pm

bastillon wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:
bastillon wrote:defense would've been nice.


So he didn't play any role whatsoever in Turkoglu having games of 4 for 11, 1 for 11, 5 for 13 and 3 for 12 in that series?


now I'm confused. did you even watch that series or you're just going by the numbers ? James didn't guard Turkoglu.



He did guard Turkoglu for almost the whole second half in game 1 for example. He also guarded him on the last play and guarded him well enough to have him pass the ball to Lewis in the corner who was covered by Varejao. The rest is history.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#96 » by drza » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:12 pm

Re: LeBron

Though I have him at #1 for last season, I do recognize some of the issues that Bastillion and JB have brought up regarding his ball dominance, and whether or not it is a good thing. I even blogged on it last year during the playoffs ( http://rotosynthesis.rotowire.com/Is-Le ... BD1074.htm ) after Hubie Brown mentioned it in one of the games. There could be something to the thought that having an offense geared entirely around one player making all of the scoring decisions could be bad for the team offense if that player doesn't get his teammates involved in ways that maximize them. The argument could be made that this affects everything from their ability to hit open shots to their energy levels/effort on defense. Perhaps this could be one of the insidious side effects of the MJ legacy, that we have been led to believe that the best-of-the-best won by individually dominating his opponents and thus the new generations seek to emulate that when maybe it's not true.

The only problems are that:

1) That hasn't been fully proven/supported yet enough to base an argument upon that

2) There's a big chicken-and-egg issue as to whether LeBron was ball-dominant because his teammates sucked or whether his teammates under-achieved because of his ball-dominance. i.e. Did Jordan and Kobe suddenly "get it" and involve their teammates more on their way to titles, or is it really that Pippen and Gasol were just so good that they deserved larger roles and thus Jordan/Kobe didn't dominate the ball as much? If the Cavs win this year is it because LeBron now "gets it", or because Jamison/Williams/Varejao/Shaq/etc are just a much better supporting cast?

3) if the Cavs offense WERE too stagnated and LeBron WAS doing too much without anything run for his teammates, that's a coaching issue. From all that we can tell, LeBron was running the offense he was given at a nearly perfect level. If that offense was the incorrect one for their personnel to run, that's on Mike Brown, not LeBron.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#97 » by CzBoobie » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:14 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
Is this true? I'm not calling you a liar but I don't remember every game having a 20 point a lead. My memory is crap so I could be wrong.



http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.



Looking at play by play is probably better choice...the biggest lead was 33-17 and 37-21.
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#98 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:17 pm

bastillon wrote:I regret not being here earlier. I guess what I would wanna say right now is how I value postseason much more than the RS. I only consider RS important as the comparative tool when player made it to the playoffs. there isn't a massive difference past that. if, say, you have 25 PER in the RS and your team is 45W team, then it doesn't make much of a difference overall (RS and PO concerned) whether you have 30 PER. being 2 seeds higher doesn't have much impact on the outcome of the whole season.

that being said, I think Paul has gotten massively overrated here. I don't know why nobody mentioned it yet, but he had injured hamstring in the playoffs. now I wanna give him all the credit in the world for his regular season, but you can only go so far when you're injured come playoff time. I'm questioning value of a player that's injured in the postseason. why would you want a guy to have a dominant RS when he's dominated by Chauncey Billups on one end, and stopped by one of the dumber players in the league (Dahntay Jones) on the other ? Paul doesn't belong in this conversation.


Wow, took me a couple read throughs to get this because it's so different from how I see things. I'll preface the rest by saying I'm not condemning your approach.

Dealing with injuries in the post-season is something everyone has to think about. For me, I see all players as having the potential to be injured at any time, and so it really doesn't make much sense to call a guy overrated because he happened to injured at the wrong time. It's one thing if a player comes in with his team the favorite to win it all, and his injury results in the team getting booted in the first round. That's a huge important part of the season in which the team is not achieving when they should have been.

With Paul though, the Hornets were a 7 seed that lost in the first round. Nothing really lost there. So to throw out the 82 game season (which I wouldn't do in the title-favorite case either) just seems crazy. It's that 82 game season that determine everything about how far the team got, and it's there where you saw the true reflection of the player - seems to me clear that that should be the dominant factor?
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#99 » by Gongxi » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:19 pm

JB's votes don't count, right?
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Re: Retro POY '08-09 

Post#100 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:23 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:It's that 82 game season that determine everything about how far the team got, and it's there where you saw the true reflection of the player - seems to me clear that that should be the dominant factor?


People will come up with criterion that feels right to them, but I agree that RS has to play a substantial factor in the vote. Otherwise, why not just base this strictly on playoff performance and completely throw RS out? To me, this exercise would lose a lot of luster if that was done.

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