Mike Woodson + Joe Johnson?

[azncorruptedo17]

Hey everyone,

i was just curious if anyone has heard anything about this possibility?

Bringing in Mike Woodson as head coach can potentially bring in Joe Johnson since johnson loves playing for mike woodson.

Wouldn't this be the best scenario for us now since we are in need of a head coach, who seems to be doing fairly well coaching young guys, and will help bring in a SF that we desperately need?

What do y'all thing?

[playaloc916]

I'd be happy if we could get both of them. I really like what Woodson's done with the Hawks, and Johnson's a really well rounded player.

But wouldn't the Hawks want to try and keep them? I think they've got a good thing going. Maybe not a championship contender, but a team that will consistently be in the playoffs.

[scratch21]

i dont wanna over pay JJ like we did BD

[Recently]

Joe Johnson is vastly overrated. Josh smith and al horford are what makes the hawks a great team, not JJ.

[mkwest]

I definitely would consider it. I personally don't like the idea of giving JJ the max, due to the depletion of the bench. He's logged a lot of minutes and it would be a big commitment that might only make us marginally better. Don't get me wrong, he'd fill a need, and probably put us into the playoffs provided our key guys are healthy. I just feel that there are only 2 guys that are truly worth max contracts that would make me forget about the lack of a bench. Unfortunately Johnson isn't one of them. If we could get him for less than the max, bring in Woodson, and have a little spending money left over, then I'd probably be all for it.

[donemilio21]

Joe Johnson is not overrated, however, given todays economy he is not a max player. I believe only team that would give JJ a 5 year max deal is NYK if they are desperate.

Mike Woodson is a good coach. Him and John Lucas would be great for Clippers.

If we could sign Woodson, I believe we can get JJ for 5 year $75mil.

[thanumba2clippersfan]

I definitely would consider it. I personally don't like the idea of giving JJ the max, due to the depletion of the bench. He's logged a lot of minutes and it would be a big commitment that might only make us marginally better. Don't get me wrong, he'd fill a need, and probably put us into the playoffs provided our key guys are healthy. I just feel that there are only 2 guys that are truly worth max contracts that would make me forget about the lack of a bench. Unfortunately Johnson isn't one of them. If we could get him for less than the max, bring in Woodson, and have a little spending money left over, then I'd probably be all for it.

I feel the same way

[Tucker74]

He's logged a lot of minutes and it would be a big commitment that might only make us marginally better. Don't get me wrong, he'd fill a need, and probably put us into the playoffs provided our key guys are healthy. I just feel that there are only 2 guys that are truly worth max contracts that would make me forget about the lack of a bench.

Getting us to the playoffs would be a huge leap and not just marginal improvement! JJ may not be all world but he's a great #1 scoring option, versatile and has shown he can flourish on a winning team. Can't say that about any of our current guys. That said, I doubt he signs here and we'll probably use the cap space to help a team unload contracts and fill our needs.

Joe Johnson is not overrated, however, given todays economy he is not a max player. I believe only team that would give JJ a 5 year max deal is NYK if they are desperate.

Actually, based on what you just said about the Knicks desperation once Lebron/Wade spurn them, JJ is a max player in this economy. By virtue of supply not meeting demand someone will pay the max for JJ.

[supfoo]

He's logged a lot of minutes and it would be a big commitment that might only make us marginally better. Don't get me wrong, he'd fill a need, and probably put us into the playoffs provided our key guys are healthy. I just feel that there are only 2 guys that are truly worth max contracts that would make me forget about the lack of a bench.

Getting us to the playoffs would be a huge leap and not just marginal improvement! JJ may not be all world but he's a great #1 scoring option, versatile and has shown he can flourish on a winning team. Can't say that about any of our current guys. That said, I doubt he signs here and we'll probably use the cap space to help a team unload contracts and fill our needs.

Joe Johnson is not overrated, however, given todays economy he is not a max player. I believe only team that would give JJ a 5 year max deal is NYK if they are desperate.

Actually, based on what you just said about the Knicks desperation once Lebron/Wade spurn them, JJ is a max player in this economy. By virtue of supply not meeting demand someone will pay the max for JJ.

agreed on all counts. joe johnson would be a terrific fit for this team but i don't see any worthwhile free agents signing here. i think it'll depend a lot on who the next coach/gm is but it's not looking good. with both bryant and ginobilli resigning, along with mcgrady succumbing to chronic injuries, the top max dollar swingman are james, wade, and johnson. there's a significant drop off in talent after those three. the real problem is that this year's market didn't meet all the hyped up expectations from a couple years back but there are a handful of teams that planned to make a big splash in free agency regardless. on top of all that, you still have to bid against the home favorites, who sure as hell don't want to lose elite talent for zero compensation. supply, meet demand. i say throw as much money as you can in his direction and pray for a miracle.

seriously, johnson would fix so many issues with this team, he'd be worth every single penny.

[mkwest]

Getting us to the playoffs would be a huge leap and not just marginal improvement! JJ may not be all world but he's a great #1 scoring option, versatile and has shown he can flourish on a winning team. Can't say that about any of our current guys. That said, I doubt he signs here and we'll probably use the cap space to help a team unload contracts and fill our needs.

I mean, I'd gladly accept being a playoff team. When I say marginal improvement, I'm referring to improvement beyond the team playing to their potential. That hasn't happened in so long that it's not even funny. If these guys had a better coach (which we should have next season) and guys actually gave half a damn, we'd be much better than a 27 win team. We've lost 10+ games where we've had double digit leads at some point during the game. We've given up countless games where it was close, but we dropped the ball when it was time to close (think back to the start of the season as an example). This team should have at least 8 more wins than they currently do, and that would still be underachieving. All of these playoff teams have 50+ victories, but it's not just because they're such great teams, it's partially because teams like us have sucked and we are an extra 3 or 4 wins for them.

I love Joe Johnson's game and think that he could be a huge addition to this team. His versatility, size, ability to carry the load and fill in any whole on the wing is very attractive. What concerns me is that this guy would be getting top dollar at 29 years of age and having logged a lot of minutes (40 give or take for the last 7 seasons). I wouldn't want him to break down when he gets here, and there's the time where he's disappeared in the playoffs. We're not going to have much of a bench if we sign him. Players like LeBron or Wade, you easily make that sacrifice. With Joe Johnson, I wouldn't have that same confidence with having such a thin bench.

If we get him, then I'll be content and I'll fully support him. I just have my concerns when you at the down sides of the situation.

[supfoo]

those are very legitimate concerns but you see a lot of top-level swingman play 40 minutes a night throughout their entire career and still maintain efficiency into their mid-thirties barring any chronic injuries. his contract will definitely make him a financial liability from his 4th year or so, no denying that.

i'm not sure how the team would rectify the weak bench situation. stern recently said that the projected salary cap will be higher than the expected 54 million but i don't know if the increase will be significant enough to sign another dependable rotation bench player along with johnson. i'm comfortable with deandre getting 20+ minutes per game next season so the biggest need would be a swingman to play similar minutes. can they pick up an impact rookie to complement the team? if sterling is really dedicated to winning, he'll also have no problem using the mid-level exception from 2011 and on. there may be some options still available.

overall, i can't disagree with you but i really believe the benefits outweigh the costs. of course, my answer can change depending on the results of the draft and the salary cap numbers.

[playaloc916]

It's pretty unfortunate actually, with so few FA swingmen available. The more I think about it, we would just be settling with Johnson. I agree, that he's logged a ton of minutes, and he's probably around his peak right now, and will likely decline in the next few years. But we are always going to be lacking a good swingman until we sign someone good, and there just isn't much available.

But one offsetting positive that we have, is that although Johnson is getting up there in age, we have youth in the other positions. It's not a lot different than the Hawks. They have some young guys like Horford, Williams, and Smith, just like we have Gordon, Griffin, and Jordan. And Bibby is only a year older than Davis. So with this structure, it's not like the team becomes really old.

We basically have two options: Go with Johnson (and even this may be a longshot), or endure another year of being a lower echelon team, which again will probably not make the playoffs. We can then assess our needs at that point, and hopefully by then, with a new coach and another year of experience for our young guys (plus the first year for Griffin) we can snag a good swingman. But we would go in to next year with low expectations, and just hope our young guys improve.

I actually don't mind either scenario. We're used to the losing, so if there are prospects for next year, waiting another year might be worth it, especially if the alternative would be signing Johnson with an albatross contract, and then him starting to decline soon after. Hopefully having Byron Scott or Mark Jackson as our coach will improve our team, without signing a big name. I'd be happy if that happens. As long as we keep improving.

[SAUCERY_SWEET]

Joe Johnson is vastly overrated. Josh smith and al horford are what makes the hawks a great team, not JJ.

Boy, don't even get me started. You really don't know our team worth a damn from a far. Just put it like that.

[Recently]

Joe Johnson is vastly overrated. Josh smith and al horford are what makes the hawks a great team, not JJ.

Boy, don't even get me started. You really don't know our team worth a damn from a far. Just put it like that.

I prefer the more statistical approach to evaluating teams, than the biased fan-based approach of eyeballing people stats and/or anecdotal evidence.

Here's a great post on why i believe what i said: http://dberri.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/ ... n-atlanta/

(great fan of this website and a regular reader; debunks alot of nba "myths" on overhyped/underappreciated players)

I bet you believe Jamal Crawford is a godsend as well . Knowledge is power!

Edit: More recent table here: http://www.wagesofwins.com/Atlanta630910.html
I'm Not saying JJ is a bad player but he is overvalued and not worth a max contract. His .154 WP48 is above average (.100 is average), but its not great (.200+) or really great (lebron, dwight and cp3 are around .400+ for example)

[Recently]

Just a follow up on my previous post, The website i linked (wages of win) tends to create really divisive responses in readers. Either people love the system and its evaluation methods (people that are open minded and are comfortable with number crunching) or hate it (really biased fans *coughkobefans*, and people that like to try to quantify "intangibles").

A plus side to following that site is you don't get "suprised" by teams like how espn basketball analyst often do when something "unexpected" by their standards occur. (ie this season, the bucks being a playoff team and not 14th out of 15th as they predicted, and houston not sucking ball despite having no all stars; last season the chauncey billups trade being so ridiculously one sided, etc) because regular readers of the site are well informed before the seasons underway, or at the time of trade, how the team will perform with its current roster using these stats.

[supfoo]

you've got to be kidding me.

viewtopic.php?f=344&t=1001662

http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/vi ... sc&start=0

in short, wp/wp48 isn't a useless statistic or anything like that but it has its flaws, the main criticism being that rebounds tend to be overvalued (the associated marginal value in his equation is way too high. for some reason, he also assumes there's a strong correlation between great rebounding and great defense.), and its predictive powers are worse than some basic box-score stats. most importantly, advanced metrics like per and ws48 suffer from the lack of reliable box-score statistics for actions occurring on the defensive end.

point being, you can't rely strictly on statistics to determine a player's worth. even the stat-heads over at APBR metrics will tell you that team adjustments, coaching, and other non-quantitative factors play a role in these statistics that are independent of the players' abilities. not only that, there isn't always a 100% correlation between perceived player ability and the value of that player to a particular franchise. players get over/underpaid depending on the amount of salary space available, the free agent list, and other market forces.

[Recently]

point being, you can't rely strictly on statistics to determine a player's worth. even the stat-heads over at APBR metrics will tell you that team adjustments, coaching, and other non-quantitative factors play a role in these statistics that are independent of the players' abilities. not only that, there isn't always a 100% correlation between perceived player ability and the value of that player to a particular franchise. players get over/underpaid depending on the amount of salary space available, the free agent list, and other market forces.

First of all, Until you can quantify these certain "intangible", they are a weak argument. It's all opinion based and subjective. If I say "player x" is a great defender, moves his feet well, plays with alot of energy etc, you might easily disagree. Numbers however, are solid and are more difficult to refute. Lets not kid ourselves, Players salary in the nba is HIGHLY correlated to PPG (and extremely overvalued stat) and is by far the most powerful force.

As for the criticisms, yea they are there. Its not overvaluing rebounding though, its more the way PER and WP48 treat shooting efficiency vs volume. Wp48 rewards shooting efficiency very highly, and centers/pf's tend to shoot much higher fg%. These positions also tend to rebound in higher frequency as well. The weighting is a bit different between PER and WP48, but in the end, weighting is going to be somewhat arbitrary. There's no perfect stat, and there never will be, but i'll trust these more than anecdotal evidence as people tend to remember all the good moments and forget the failures.

As a clippers fan, anything that tells me kobe =/= MJ and/or the second coming of Jesus is good in my book

[supfoo]

so let me get this straight. because certain "intangibles" can't be quantified, it's better to use a highly disputed metric with what you describe as arbitrary weighting in determining player's worth rather than using a combination of both numbers and what you disparagingly call "anecdotal evidence"? seriously?

i also never claimed ppg isn't associated with player salary. i said that one's perception of a player's abilities isn't 100% correlated with their salary offer but i'll respond anyways. just because player salary is highly correlated with ppg doesn't mean that's the only force/most powerful force. it's also highly correlated with size (normalized), rebounds, and even with other advanced metrics like PER. ben wallace, anderson varejao, samuel dalembert, nene... do i need to go on? it's basic supply and demand principles.

as far as your claims that wp48 simply treats shooting efficiency differently, i really don't care how you sugarcoat the fact that the marginal value associated with rebounds is so high and the marginal value associated with both taking and making a field goal is so negative, that according to wp48, marcus camby is one of the best players in the nba. i really don't want to get into an indepth argument about wp48 because both of the links i provided lays out the criticisms much more eloquently than i ever could. at the end of the day, it's how the metrics are interpreted by people that determine how useful it can be.

[donemilio21]

The Hawks are pooling resources to offer a maximum-salary contract to Joe Johnson on July 1. If they are able to do so, Johnson is likely to re-sign with Atlanta.

Sources tell Adrian Wojnarowski that the Hawks are willing to sell their first-round pick for $3 million, to help pay for Johnson's salary.

For the same reason, Atlanta will likely offer no more than a three-year contract between $1.8 million to $2 million per season to a possible successor to head coach Mike Woodson.

Woodson could leave to take the Sixers' job if Larry Brown becomes team president in Philadelphia. Brown would also look to hire Wizards' executive Milt Newton as his GM, according to sources.

Read more: http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archi ... z0mKAjJe6Y

Around $2 million a year. We sure can offer more than that!

[thanumba2clippersfan]

If the Hawks are going to offer the max for Johnson I was basically thinking it's over we won't get him. And for coach Woodson we could offer him more but it would depend if he really wants to leave that team.