When are we going to stop running a gimmick defense?

[azuresou1]

Peachtree Hoops has a great post about why switching every screen is a terribad idea. It's kind of a joke that Woodson, a descendant of the Larry Brown coaching tree, would run such a joke defense.

I mean, if we're going to run a gimmick defense, we might as well run the 1-3-1, which would let us hide Bibby on defense. Plus, it would play into us having fastbreaks, where we excel the most.

[killbuckner]

I'm just glad that people are finally starting to pay attention to realize that the hawks problems are on defense and not on offense.

[evildallas]

The ability to switch screens is a positive. Switching every screen is a problem. I'm not sure if it is an indictment of our players or our coaches, but you would think that after having the same core unit for so long running the same system that it would be more creatively and selectively applied. It helps for not letting 2s and 3s get open looks, but sucks for PGs and bigs.

It is aggravating to watch a well coached team execute a simple screen to get us to switch leaving an obvious driving or posting mismatch.

[azuresou1]

I'm just glad that people are finally starting to pay attention to realize that the hawks problems are on defense and not on offense.

We have problems on both sides of the ball, as well as in regards to rebounding.

[God Squad]

Raps fan here. I'm hurting inside watching you guys get beat by Milwaukee. Whats up? is their defense too hot? or is it lack of Offence? Al Horford been letting me down a bit. With Bogut gone he should be destroying there interior.

[dms269]

Raps fan here. I'm hurting inside watching you guys get beat by Milwaukee. Whats up? is their defense too hot? or is it lack of Offence? Al Horford been letting me down a bit. With Bogut gone he should be destroying there interior.

I would say lack of offense. We will go for stretches not scoring. It is almost like we are trying to run out the clock with around 4 minutes left.

That and our gimmick defense.

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

Raps fan here. I'm hurting inside watching you guys get beat by Milwaukee. Whats up?

Skiles made adjustments to take away some of our advantages on offense and to exploit the switching our defense does. Then our genius coach made zero adjustments and we lost game 3. Then he made zero adjustments and we lost game 4. Then he made zero adjustments and we lost game 5.

Good news, though. He isn't making any significant adjustments tonight!

Marci Gortat has learned a lot from the series but doesn’t understand what is going on with Atlanta’s defense.

“I learned that Milwaukee is a really dangerous team,” Gortat said.” I don’t know what Atlanta is doing on defense. That’s all I can tell you.”

Facing a close-out situation in Game 6 Friday night on the Bucks' home floor, Woodson insists he will stay the course. There will be no major change in the Hawks' defensive approach, no wrinkles in what they do on offense or in how they plan to deal with a team that has snatched the momentum in this series from the higher-seeded Hawks.

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/s ... 0/woodson/

That is the kind of strategy you only wish the Raptors' coaching staff could bring! (It hurts...make Woodson stop...)

[evildallas]

Reminds me of a game against the Knicks years ago (2nd or 3rd season maybe) when our lead vanished in the fourth quarter as they drove to the basket play after play and he left Josh Smith on the bench. After the game Woodson said he got caught up in the heat of the game and forgot to put Smith back in. I wanted him fired right that minute. For a coach to forget his top shot blocker was on the bench as the opponent drove repeated to the basket convinced me that he didn't deserve to coach a NBA team. Reading his stay the course crap makes me realize that Woodson has peaked as a coach. He needs to be fired regardless of when this season ends because if we win it will be in spite of him not because of him.

I still hate Billy Knight the most for all the personnel decisions over those years and the joy he has deprived me of. Mike Woodson is starting to gain on him though.

[Ruhiel]

bump.

[Harry10]

Peachtree Hoops has a great post about why switching every screen is a terribad idea. It's kind of a joke that Woodson, a descendant of the Larry Brown coaching tree, would run such a joke defense.

I mean, if we're going to run a gimmick defense, we might as well run the 1-3-1, which would let us hide Bibby on defense. Plus, it would play into us having fastbreaks, where we excel the most.

switching on every pick, is a scheme that Woodson created for Steve Nash, and that is why it has been called the "Nash rules"

i'm not sure if the "Nash rules" is a good idea for the Bulls, but i do like the "Nash rules" because it has worked for the Hawks, because the Hawks have had success against the Suns.

it is a good scheme, it works on some teams and elite PGs, i don't know why you think it is terrible, but i like it because it has been effective on a good PG like Nash.

[Ruhiel]

I bumped this because Horford and Collins clog up the middle better than letting Rose penetrate and seeing whether Josh blocks it or not.

Josh Smith is Dwight Howard
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JCHXavHZZs[/youtube]
1*they run Vince off a screen forcing Josh to come out
and now Hilton and Marvin are the only players there.

Players are going to get funneled to the middle.
We need size in their not Josh Smith who is still 6'8 but bulkier. He should not be saddled with interior defense.

Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, and Al Horford have an average of 6'8.5".
Marvin Williams/Josh Smith, Al Horford , and 7footer Pachulia/Collins have an average height of 6'10".

No one is saying get rid of Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, and Al Horford lineup. We used them extensively to get boards Dwight the point is we need size to win.

And anyone who is saying Josh didn't try to post up Turkoglu and JJ Redick is lying thru their teeth.

[MaceCase]

We ran the switch as the base with Al and Smoove in our last series and it was rather effective due to Al's uncanny ability to cover wings and Smoove's girth and athleticism when guarding the post. Where Woody failed was that he'd switch everything and teams would continuously go to the PG/CorPF switch against us. LD only allows the switch between Al/Smoove and Joe/Marvin but will at times be fine with Smoove/Marvin switches. That has really been the key difference in the strategy, only certain matchups are allowed to switch while others are nearly entirely banned.

[Ruhiel]

We ran the switch as the base with Al and Smoove in our last series and it was rather effective due to Al's uncanny ability to cover wings and Smoove's girth and athleticism when guarding the post. Where Woody failed was that he'd switch everything and teams would continuously go to the PG/CorPF switch against us. LD only allows the switch between Al/Smoove and Joe/Marvin but will at times be fine with Smoove/Marvin switches. That has really been the key difference in the strategy, only certain matchups are allowed to switch while others are nearly entirely banned.

@MaceCase I realize this but I was talking about offense. Also when we use the small lineup centers have the rebounding and post up position.
Without a center Josh has to rebound and cannot get out in run. He won't draw fouls in the post instead settling for jumpers. Josh at the 3 means he and Horford can get out and run, play inside out 2 man game.
You never see this when we played Woody ball. Its an entirely different dynamic. It's the difference between Dirk playing the 4 and the 5. Dirk has to rely on his perimeter skills more as a 5. pump fakes and jump shots. As a 4 Dirk posts up and generally works inside out.

with a center Hawks are a better defensive team and Horford has somebody to run with and post up in Josh Smith and Joe Johnson.

[MaceCase]

Well excuse me, I saw switching defense in the thread title and foolishly felt that that was the purpose of said thread. Little did I know that you just saw this as yet another opportunity to spam the 15th consecutive thread with your opinion about "Josh getting out and running". You know what also helps a team run better? Having their best rebounding lineup out there. I also find it disturbing that playing the interior positions somehow forces a player to a more perimeter orientated game. That one right there is baffling me.

[Ruhiel]

Well excuse me, I saw switching defense in the thread title and foolishly felt that that was the purpose of said thread. Little did I know that you just saw this as yet another opportunity to spam the 15th consecutive thread with your opinion about "Josh getting out and running". You know what also helps a team run better? Having their best rebounding lineup out there. I also find it disturbing that playing the interior positions somehow forces a player to a more perimeter orientated game. That one right there is baffling me.

1) "You know what also helps a team run better?Having their best rebounding lineup out there."
Using common sense here, 6'7.75 Marvin Williams in place of Pachulia or even Collins is not our best rebounding lineup. But even without logic There are no numbers to support these statements.

2) Derrick Rose is going to get to the rim anyway. Video shows that Smith/Horford will have to leave Noah to contest Rose and risk drawing fouls at a high rate. We need our 7 footers to take fouls and enhance our size on the boards.

[Geaux_Hawks]

At bests Marvin is 6'8.50 in shoes and 6'7.25 without them. I don't know why you try to make it seem like he is undersized. He is dang near 6'9 with hops to grab rebounds like Collins and Zaza who are like7'0, but no bounce off the floor. If you really want to run more then Marvin needs to be out on the floor. If you need someone to guard a dominate or big center, then you go with Collins or Pachulia.

Preferably, I say go with Collins or Pachulia, just so Marvin can come off the bench and be a spark like he did in game 6. Thats his NBA role, to take advantage of the other teams bench. He could really do that against Chicago's bench guys like Korver and force Deng to play more minutes. We actually lose the advantage of bringing Zaza off the bench because Asik is a quality big off the bench, so start him against Boozer.

This would be a good series to play Damien Wilkins on Rose. Besides him being a pretty good defender, he can also use all 6 of his fouls.

[Ruhiel]

At bests Marvin is 6'8.50 in shoes and 6'7.25 without them. I don't know why you try to make it seem like he is undersized. He is dang near 6'9 with hops to grab rebounds like Collins and Zaza who are like7'0, but no bounce off the floor. If you really want to run more then Marvin needs to be out on the floor. If you need someone to guard a dominate or big center, then you go with Collins or Pachulia.

Preferably, I say go with Collins or Pachulia, just so Marvin can come off the bench and be a spark like he did in game 6. Thats his NBA role, to take advantage of the other teams bench. He could really do that against Chicago's bench guys like Korver and force Deng to play more minutes. We actually lose the advantage of bringing Zaza off the bench because Asik is a quality big off the bench, so start him against Boozer.

This would be a good series to play Damien Wilkins on Rose. Besides him being a pretty good defender, he can also use all 6 of his fouls.

Marvin is 6'7.75 with shoes on (via combines). He is not taller than Josh Smith. Hops can only get you so many rebounds. I agree with bringing Marvin off the bench, especially if Smith is jacking up shots on Deng and not posting up and rim running. Marvin hits clutch shots in that position.
We also have Powell (and maybe Hilton) who can shoot and play center. But seriously though Noah plays 32 minutes and only puts up 12 points per game. He is not more athletic than Howard or even Bass. Kurt Thomas plays more than Asik.
As long as we single cover Rose and don't let him collapse the D for 3s, bring in Marvin and Jamal to increase leads/score we can win. Defense over offense.
If Rose is not collapsing their offense is embarassingly terrible. Rose is good but as long as we don't foul make him take tough shots and offensive rebound we can win.

P.S. mods or somebody else we all know Josh was jacking up shots more than we like but can we at least agree it was because Turkoglu was guarding him well and pushing him out of the post?
I'm going insane here.

[Harry10]

At bests Marvin is 6'8.50 in shoes and 6'7.25 without them. I don't know why you try to make it seem like he is undersized. He is dang near 6'9 with hops to grab rebounds like Collins and Zaza who are like7'0, but no bounce off the floor. If you really want to run more then Marvin needs to be out on the floor. If you need someone to guard a dominate or big center, then you go with Collins or Pachulia.

Preferably, I say go with Collins or Pachulia, just so Marvin can come off the bench and be a spark like he did in game 6. Thats his NBA role, to take advantage of the other teams bench. He could really do that against Chicago's bench guys like Korver and force Deng to play more minutes. We actually lose the advantage of bringing Zaza off the bench because Asik is a quality big off the bench, so start him against Boozer.

This would be a good series to play Damien Wilkins on Rose. Besides him being a pretty good defender, he can also use all 6 of his fouls.

Marvin is 6'7.75 with shoes on (via combines). He is not taller than Josh Smith. Hops can only get you so many rebounds. I agree with bringing Marvin off the bench, especially if Smith is jacking up shots on Deng and not posting up and rim running. Marvin hits clutch shots in that position.
We also have Powell (and maybe Hilton) who can shoot and play center. But seriously though Noah plays 32 minutes and only puts up 12 points per game. He is not more athletic than Howard or even Bass. Kurt Thomas plays more than Asik.
As long as we single cover Rose and don't let him collapse the D for 3s, bring in Marvin and Jamal to increase leads/score we can win. Defense over offense.
If Rose is not collapsing their offense is embarassingly terrible. Rose is good but as long as we don't foul make him take tough shots and offensive rebound we can win.

P.S. mods or somebody else we all know Josh was jacking up shots more than we like but can we at least agree it was because Turkoglu was guarding him well and pushing him out of the post?
I'm going insane here.

here are their draft measurements

Marvin Standing reach 9'0 , vertical reach 11'11
Smoove Standing reach 8'10, vertical reach 12'2
Noah Standing reach 8'10, vertical reach 12'0
Deng Standing reach 9'0 , vertical reach 11'8
Horford Standing reach 8'11, vertical reach 11'10
Booozer Standing reach 9'0, vertical reach 11'5

[Ruhiel]

at any rate Marvin and Smith are not clogging the lane or boxing out properly.
Defense and rebounding are a team effort.
Rose is going to penetrate regardless but as long as we sit on his shooters, clog the middle and make sure not to double him, he might have a Dwight like game in terms of points but everyone else will be negated. We cannot double team or overcommit our players to come over and block shots. This sets their motion offense up and Deng is open to drive, Korver and Bogans are open for 3.

and lol Marvin's reach does not make him a great rebounder. He is not going to outrebound Noah or Boozer on a switch. Smith has a lower reach but we all know Smith is a better boarder than Marv at the 3. and Noah and Boozer are better than them both on switches. No matter what way you look at it we lost because we play Smith and Marvin at center.

The Bulls got 40% ORB. Taj Gibson had 2, Asik had 4 in 14 minutes, Rose had 2, and Noah had 6 offensive boards. And we won with Marvin starting. Rose had 21 shots and made 5, Deng had 14 shots. If we give Rose all the shots and keep everyone else out they are an extremely low scoring team.
Watch the Pacers-Bulls tape, Rose and C.J. Watson are their only creators. We sit on their threes and we can win.
:::
Game 2; March 11
Bulls 94, Hawks 76

Josh started at pf 4/13, he was 0 for 2 from 3,
Horford shot 3/8 in 40 minutes,
Pachulia played 16 minutes, Damien Wilkins 21 and Marvin 17.

We have to stay at home and put our best defense and rebounders out there for the majority of the minutes again.

Rose shot 9 for 24. Chicago got 36.8% offensive rebounds. 2 out of every 5 shots they got another possession. Smith and Horford were at 10%, 1 out of 10. Those are losing numbers for the Hawks. Rose is their Dwight Howard we double him they win. We live with his scoring tough shots.