Retro POY '08-09

[Silver Bullet]

Overall here are my rankings:

1a. Kobe (2nd in MVP voting and Finals MVP Winner)

1b. Lebron (Best numbers all around, #1 overall seed, but losing with HCA is big here especially on a team that won 65+ games when every analyst picked them to win the conference at least.)
NOTE: If Orlando had the better seed/record and Lebron did what he did, I would have him #1 because it would have meant he lost to a team that was considered better.

1c. Dwight (Had he won the title and played better in the finals he could have been #1 as it would have meant beating 3 teams that won 60+ games)

4. Wade (2003 Tmac season here)

5. CP3 (Best Numbers for a Guard last year)

This is bull. Jordan Bulls is the biggest Kobe hater on the planet, he would never vote for Kobe for MVP even if Kobe had a 40-15-15 Season, and now this guy's voting for Kobe in a season, where even the biggest Kobe homers can't make a case for him ?

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Overall here are my rankings:

1a. Kobe (2nd in MVP voting and Finals MVP Winner)

1b. Lebron (Best numbers all around, #1 overall seed, but losing with HCA is big here especially on a team that won 65+ games when every analyst picked them to win the conference at least.)
NOTE: If Orlando had the better seed/record and Lebron did what he did, I would have him #1 because it would have meant he lost to a team that was considered better.

1c. Dwight (Had he won the title and played better in the finals he could have been #1 as it would have meant beating 3 teams that won 60+ games)

4. Wade (2003 Tmac season here)

5. CP3 (Best Numbers for a Guard last year)

This is bull. Jordan Bulls is the biggest Kobe hater on the planet, he would never vote for Kobe for MVP even if Kobe had a 40-15-15 Season, and now this guy's voting for Kobe in a season, where even the biggest Kobe homers can't make a case for him ?

Its all about the agenda, everyone has one, even him. He is on the Kobe wagon because LeBron is becoming a threat to MJ's legacy, and beyond hating Kobe, what he truly cares about is protecting MJ. So now, it is beneficial for him to claim Kobe is better than LeBron, to keep him down for as long as possible.

Just like in your case, you believe Kobe is greater than MJ, so its beneficial to prop up LeBron in comparisons to Michael, to make it look like Kobe is competing with the GOAT.

I hate these games people play on RealGM, like we're all stupid and don't know what's really going on.

[semi-sentient]

I will be fascinated to see several Lakers' fans rankings for the 05-06 season, and how consistent their arguments remain.

05-06 came into play for me. I couldn't rank Kobe #1 last season just for having better team success, just like I won't be able to rank Wade higher for going all the way in 05-06. For me, that's going to be a really easy vote because I feel confident in saying that Wade could not have done what Kobe did, nor would he have had that team in the playoffs taking a heavily favored Suns to 7 games (by changing his entire game).

PS: Why is a self-admitted Kobe hater in here trying to muddy the waters? Believe it or not, not everyone is a hater and does their best to be objective.

[Sedale Threatt]

I will be fascinated to see several Lakers' fans rankings for the 05-06 season, and how consistent their arguments remain.

I've already been thinking hard about this. I don't think it's quite the same situation, however, as in my opinion Kobe did not carry the Lakers last season like Wade did in the 06 Finals.

We can all joke about the "D-Whistle" stuff, but in the end, results are all that matters, and he dominated at a historic level while leading his team back from a 2.5 - 0 deficit. Nor do I think 06 Kobe was better than 09 LeBron.

But it's definitely going to be a hard decision.

[TrueLAfan]

Okay. This is a big deal. Here’s what we’re not going to have here. We’re not going to have name calling. We’re not going to have people insulting each other. We’re not going to have the kind of backhanded bulls--- that some posters have done in the past. (“Gosh, I respect you, but I question whether you’ve ever actually watched a basketball game before in your life.”) This is not up for discussion and it’s non-negotiable. It’s board policy, and it’s going to be enforced here.

Everyone on this board and in this thread has his or her favorites. That is a fact. Everyone needs to acknowledge it and deal with it. I realize that some posters (and I, and everyone) may have some ideas or selections that go against what other individuals may believe. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean that the other person is wrong. Focus on making your case more than attacking the positions of others—and never resort to name calling or insulting another poster on this thread.

[Sedale Threatt]

I will be fascinated to see several Lakers' fans rankings for the 05-06 season, and how consistent their arguments remain.

05-06 came into play for me. I couldn't rank Kobe #1 last season just for having better team success, just like I won't be able to rank Wade higher for going all the way in 05-06. For me, that's going to be a really easy vote because I feel confident in saying that Wade could not have done what Kobe did, nor would he have had that team in the playoffs taking a heavily favored Suns to 7 games (by changing his entire game).

PS: Why is a self-admitted Kobe hater in here trying to muddy the waters? Believe it or not, not everyone is a hater and does their best to be objective.

Interesting. This is going to be a really, really good debate.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

PS: Why is a self-admitted Kobe hater in here trying to muddy the waters? Believe it or not, not everyone is a hater and does their best to be objective.

I don't like him as a person, but I try to be fair in regards to his status as a player. I'd put him as best in the league in 2006, personally, and rank him as better than Shaq in 04, and an equal in 03 (which IMO was his personal best season).

I stay away from All-Time rankings because I admittedly don't have enough knowledge about the NBA prior to the mid 80's.

[semi-sentient]

Interesting. This is going to be a really, really good debate.

Yeah, I think so. I thought a lot about 05-06 when making my decision for 08-09, and I remember what the general perceptions were back then, so I'll be prepared to make a strong case I think.

[Wile E. Coyote]

I will be fascinated to see several Lakers' fans rankings for the 05-06 season, and how consistent their arguments remain.

05-06 came into play for me. I couldn't rank Kobe #1 last season just for having better team success, just like I won't be able to rank Wade higher for going all the way in 05-06. For me, that's going to be a really easy vote because I feel confident in saying that Wade could not have done what Kobe did, nor would he have had that team in the playoffs taking a heavily favored Suns to 7 games (by changing his entire game).

I'm leaning on putting Kobe at #1, Wade at #2, and LeBron at #3 for 2005-06. We'll see what happens between now and then.

[JordansBulls]

Overall here are my rankings:

1a. Kobe (2nd in MVP voting and Finals MVP Winner)

1b. Lebron (Best numbers all around, #1 overall seed, but losing with HCA is big here especially on a team that won 65+ games when every analyst picked them to win the conference at least.)
NOTE: If Orlando had the better seed/record and Lebron did what he did, I would have him #1 because it would have meant he lost to a team that was considered better.

1c. Dwight (Had he won the title and played better in the finals he could have been #1 as it would have meant beating 3 teams that won 60+ games)

4. Wade (2003 Tmac season here)

5. CP3 (Best Numbers for a Guard last year)

This is bull. Jordan Bulls is the biggest Kobe hater on the planet, he would never vote for Kobe for MVP even if Kobe had a 40-15-15 Season, and now this guy's voting for Kobe in a season, where even the biggest Kobe homers can't make a case for him ?

I already said what the reason was. Best Record in the League, Best Player on the Floor at the time and got upset by a team that had less experience, worst record, not as good a star, and had an injury to it's star player.

No matter how you slice it, that is the truth. Losing a series when you won 65+ games in a season and had the best record to a team missing a star player is going to hurt you no matter who you are period.
It happened with Dirk in 2007 and Havlicek in 1973.

[Optimism Prime]

Okay. This is a big deal. Here’s what we’re not going to have here. We’re not going to have name calling. We’re not going to have people insulting each other. We’re not going to have the kind of backhanded bulls--- that some posters have done in the past. (“Gosh, I respect you, but I question whether you’ve ever actually watched a basketball game before in your life.”) This is not up for discussion and it’s non-negotiable. It’s board policy, and it’s going to be enforced here.

Everyone on this board and in this thread has his or her favorites. That is a fact. Everyone needs to acknowledge it and deal with it. I realize that some posters (and I, and everyone) may have some ideas or selections that go against what other individuals may believe. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean that the other person is wrong. Focus on making your case more than attacking the positions of others—and never resort to name calling or insulting another poster on this thread.

In the interests of transparency, here's players I may have a bias towards: Hakeem, Stockton (I'll never give him a top-1 vote, but I may try to justify a 5th-place or two), Wilt (era/pace/whatever, idgaf; 50/25 is a great season)... I'd like to think I'll be biased towards Kareem/Moses, but I honestly don't quite know enough about them to know that I am.

I'm not a fan of Kobe the person, but the guy can play... he'll have an uphill battle to win a top-place vote from me, but I'm convinced he'll get one at some point.

Guys, if it ever seems like I'm being a biased idiot, please call me on it. I'm here to learn. That's my agenda. There's a lot I don't know, and this project seems like a great place to increase my knowledge.

Here's how I'm weighing things (mentioned earlier, trying to expand upon it a bit more here): What if the teams were disbanded, each player put up for draft, no salary cap, for that year only? Who would I want to be my top-five franchise players? I'll go into it with some knowledge of what happened that year (obviously), but the "best player on the champion" argument simply doesn't always fly with me. Sometimes, sure; but if I'm looking at individual players, and who would give me the best chance to win a ring... team success doesn't necessarily equal a great personal season. Doesn't mean I'm going to go with "great individual stats on a bad team;" you need to lead your team to wins, too.

Lebron last year, put up an outstanding season, he was a vocal leader, he improved his defense. There is no player in the league last year I would have wanted on my team than Lebron James. Period. So he didn't make the finals--that honestly doesn't diminish my appreciation for what he did.

Wade/Kobe: Like I said, I'm a bit biased against Kobe. I think he's too selfish and me-first. He DOES have a killer instinct, one of the best in the league, and if I had to pick one guy from last season to make a big shot for me, he'd be my choice without hestitation. That said, Wade had a superb season, and got results from a pretty crappy team... rookie point guard, Beasley, Marion/O'Neal, Haslem, rookie coach? We've seen how Kobe handles a bad team (answer: poorly). Kobe won the title, yes, with an experienced coach, an all-star big man, a super-sub in Odom... switch their places, and you probably get the same results. When it comes down to that level of splitting hairs, I go with the player I think would be better for my team.

So yeah... here's what I'm looking at, in approximate order:

-Domination. Was Player X a force of nature that season? How did his stats compare to the rest of the field?
-Did he make the playoffs? If not... good luck getting a vote from me. Once we hit the playoffs, anything could happen. Like I said, I want the player who will give me the best chance to win... whether or not that matches up with what actually happened is more or less a moot point.
-Gut instinct. As Doctor MJ said back on page 1: "Finding myself thinking about Howard. He's definitely in my top 5 - but I don't like the way his offensive performance varies so much between opponents." Something has always bothered me about Dwight, and that's it to a tee. I want to be able to give the ball to my guys, and to make something happen. I couldn't do that with Dwight.
-Personal feelings. Do I just not like the guy? This is only going to be about 1% of my final decision, so I'll try to be as unbiased as possible.

If I'm not making any sense, or contradicting myself here (or later) call me on it; I want to get my own method figured out.

[Sedale Threatt]

I'm leaning on putting Kobe at #1, Wade at #2, and LeBron at #3 for 2005-06. We'll see what happens between now and then.

I've already got my argument mapped out in my head. Like I said previously, 09 and 06 aren't identical situations.

[JordansBulls]

Its all about the agenda, everyone has one, even him. He is on the Kobe wagon because LeBron is becoming a threat to MJ's legacy, and beyond hating Kobe, what he truly cares about is protecting MJ. So now, it is beneficial for him to claim Kobe is better than LeBron, to keep him down for as long as possible.

Just like in your case, you believe Kobe is greater than MJ, so its beneficial to prop up LeBron in comparisons to Michael, to make it look like Kobe is competing with the GOAT.

I hate these games people play on RealGM, like we're all stupid and don't know what's really going on.

That's crap, it's no freaking Agenda. I have used the HCA for some time now. An Agenda would be if it came up after Lebron lost with it. It was used before and the reason is simple. If HCA wasn't important than players wouldn't win 85-90% of the series they have HCA in.

For instance, Kobe was close enough to Lebron last year that you can make a legit case for him since he won finals mvp.

Now had Gasol won finals mvp, then I wouldn't have Kobe #1 on the list last year.

Simply put, on this list if you lost with the best record and/or HCA in any given year, I won't put you #1 unless the next 2 guys behind them lost with HCA as well, then I have no choice as their is a big difference between #1 and #4 in any given season.

Examples:
2007 Dirk won't be #1, 2006 - Duncan won't be #1, 2005 Nash won't be #1.

Each were top players but each lost with HCA those years with the best records in the league.

So as you can see, there is no agenda. It is called being consistent and fair. And saying a player lost with the higher seed/better record/HCA is being totally fair.

[Silver Bullet]

Overall here are my rankings:

1a. Kobe (2nd in MVP voting and Finals MVP Winner)

1b. Lebron (Best numbers all around, #1 overall seed, but losing with HCA is big here especially on a team that won 65+ games when every analyst picked them to win the conference at least.)
NOTE: If Orlando had the better seed/record and Lebron did what he did, I would have him #1 because it would have meant he lost to a team that was considered better.

1c. Dwight (Had he won the title and played better in the finals he could have been #1 as it would have meant beating 3 teams that won 60+ games)

4. Wade (2003 Tmac season here)

5. CP3 (Best Numbers for a Guard last year)

This is bull. Jordan Bulls is the biggest Kobe hater on the planet, he would never vote for Kobe for MVP even if Kobe had a 40-15-15 Season, and now this guy's voting for Kobe in a season, where even the biggest Kobe homers can't make a case for him ?

I already said what the reason was. Best Record in the League, Best Player on the Floor at the time and got upset by a team that had less experience, worst record, not as good a star, and had an injury to it's star player.

No matter how you slice it, that is the truth. Losing a series when you won 65+ games in a season and had the best record to a team missing a star player is going to hurt you no matter who you are period.
It happened with Dirk in 2007 and Havlicek in 1973.

So you haven't read a word in this thread ?

Can you please for once back up your argument - Show me how Lebron was responsible for the loss against Orlando.

[Gongxi]

Its all about the agenda, everyone has one, even him. He is on the Kobe wagon because LeBron is becoming a threat to MJ's legacy, and beyond hating Kobe, what he truly cares about is protecting MJ. So now, it is beneficial for him to claim Kobe is better than LeBron, to keep him down for as long as possible.

Just like in your case, you believe Kobe is greater than MJ, so its beneficial to prop up LeBron in comparisons to Michael, to make it look like Kobe is competing with the GOAT.

I hate these games people play on RealGM, like we're all stupid and don't know what's really going on.

That's crap, it's no freaking Agenda. I have used the HCA for some time now. An Agenda would be if it came up after Lebron lost with it. It was used before and the reason is simple. If HCA wasn't important than players wouldn't win 85-90% of the series they have HCA in.

For instance, Kobe was close enough to Lebron last year that you can make a legit case for him since he won finals mvp.

Now had Gasol won finals mvp, then I wouldn't have Kobe #1 on the list last year.

Simply put, on this list if you lost with the best record and/or HCA in any given year, I won't put you #1 unless the next 2 guys behind them lost with HCA as well, then I have no choice as their is a big difference between #1 and #4 in any given season.

Examples:
2007 Dirk won't be #1, 2006 - Duncan won't be #1, 2005 Nash won't be #1.

Each were top players but each lost with HCA those years with the best records in the league.

So as you can see, there is no agenda. It is called being consistent and fair. And saying a player lost with the higher seed/better record/HCA is being totally fair.

It might be consistent, but it really doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, I disagree with a lot of opinions put forward here, but at least I can see an argument for them. You seem to be confusing teams with individual players to a remarkable extent.

[Doctor MJ]

also, I don't agree with your assesment of this year's series against the Bobcats. they were pretty much dominated by Magic's defense and that's largely because of Howard's impact on that end. I don't see why people judge Howard based on his offensive production when it's not even his main attribute in the first place. it's like you cherry-picked bad defensive series for Nash and argued that his contributions are overrated when in fact he dominated on the other end. Howard did too, just the other way around.

Well, to be fair, the problem with Howard in this series had a lot to do with him not even playing due to fouls. I mean, the other key guys on the Magic essentially played an entire game without Howard. It's just hard to imagine other superstars missing so much time and the result being the only sweep in all of the 1st round.

[Silver Bullet]

Here are some choice quotes from you regarding last season :

How is Gasol the 2nd option when he led the team in Win Shares.

I don't believe the question was aimed at you; it was meant for those who watch games and don't eat paint chips.

I watch games and the fact is that Kobe hasn't even shot a better fg% than his team average in 7 years. Nearly every other star player does.

Kobe is 5th on his team in PER for the playoffs thus far and is 4th in Win Shares. But yet they are overrated?

Here you claimed that Kobe isn't even the first option on the LAkers?

The argument was Pippen and Gasol, not Pippen and Odom.

So that means Pippen > Kobe as well right? Afterall if Pippen > Gasol than that means he is better than Kobe as Gasol led the team in win shares.

And here, you quite clearly argue that Kobe should not have won MVP - and now you're the guy that's saying he should've won the MVP ?

i wish you at least argued intelligently like j23forever. instead you state that leading in win shares determines who is a better player.

Since Win Shares has existed every MVP winner with the exception of Nash has led their team in Win Shares. How much more arguing do you need?

I want you to be honest here. Has there ever been a stat that ever supported Kobe?

The fact is is there has never been a stat that supported Kobe other than leading the league in scoring twice.

Anytime someone uses any other stat it gets negated by it doesn't matter, that's not important when in effect mostly all other all time greats have led in multiple categories and aggregate stats/metrics..

And just so you know, I use stats where other all time great players have led in that combines their overall production.

[Doctor MJ]

k guys, I think the concerns about JB's reasoning have been made, and particularly since a mod has already stepped in giving a collective warning, people need to back off at this point.

I can understand the suspicion of JB given what he's said against Kobe, but I think we all know how strongly he feels about HCA - this isn't a new thing for this project.

JB, if you'd like to give one last explanation for your thought process, you may as long as you don't do any attacks on others.

[sp6r=underrated]

. . .

[Silver Bullet]

k guys, I think the concerns about JB's reasoning have been made, and particularly since a mod has already stepped in giving a collective warning, people need to back off at this point.

I can understand the suspicion of JB given what he's said against Kobe, but I think we all know how strongly he feels about HCA - this isn't a new thing for this project.

JB, if you'd like to give one last explanation for your thought process, you may as long as you don't do any attacks on others.

I would like to add -

Since I've already presented evidence of him arguing that Kobe did not deserve the MVP in 2008-09 (he made those posts well after the regular season had already finished) and moreover he wasn't even the best player on the Lakers, how can he justify voting for him now ?