Retro POY '05-06 (Voting Complete)

[NO-KG-AI]

I want it detailed how Kobe had a "much inferior supporting cast"

[Baller 24]

Wade is in the Eastern Conference now, he always has a better supporting cast than Kobe's 05 Cast - yet he always wins less games in the EAST.
.

Wade last season really didn't have anything noteworthy of talking about, Kobe at least had Odom. I think we're going a little off-topic now, but that's just my take.

Listen, I'm not taking any jabs at Kobe, he had a fantastic season, but calling it the greatest achievement stuff is a little far-fetched, considering he was also coached by Phil Jackson.

[Sedale Threatt]

With KG, I don't think it's a matter of what he didn't do, rather than the fact that there's an excess of qualified candidates.

To me, Wade's the pretty clear pick at one.

After that, you have some order of Nash, Nowitzki and Kobe. And after that, you have some order of LeBron, Duncan and Garnett.

Not a lot of separation in those two groupings, in my opinion.

[Silver Bullet]

Wade is in the Eastern Conference now, he always has a better supporting cast than Kobe's 05 Cast - yet he always wins less games in the EAST.
.

Wade last season really didn't have anything noteworthy of talking about, Kobe at least had Odom. I think we're going a little off-topic now, but that's just my take.

Listen, I'm not taking any jabs at Kobe, he had a fantastic season, but calling it the greatest achievement stuff is a little far-fetched, considering he was also coached by Phil Jackson.

What Wade does without Shaq is of consequence to this season -

If he was a Jordan-eque player, he should at least get Kobe-esque results without Shaq.

[Baller 24]

What Wade does without Shaq is of consequence to this season -

If he was a Jordan-eque player, he should at least get Kobe-esque results without Shaq.

What Kobe-esque results are we talking about here? 2004 to 2007? or 2007-2009, because those are completely different teams with completely different caliber of players on Kobe's side from 2007-2009.

[NO-KG-AI]

With KG, I don't think it's a matter of what he didn't do, rather than the fact that there's an excess of qualified candidates.

To me, Wade's the pretty clear pick at one.

After that, you have some order of Nash, Nowitzki and Kobe. And after that, you have some order of LeBron, Duncan and Garnett.

Not a lot of separation in those two groupings, in my opinion.

This.

[Doctor MJ]

I've seen APM. I don't trust it for this particular year because:
1) it's the first time I've seen Lewin do that ranking
2) Hamilton is almost last in the league while Sheed and Wallace lead it
3) at the time APM was sort of experimental thing and it wasn't until about 2008 that it really started to show some respectable results

The thing is, this year was just brutal on APM because of the Pistons. Here's the 82games team page:

http://www.82games.com/0506/0506DET.HTM

You've got 5 guys with HUGE team net +/- who all play together the vast majority of the time. By any method of adjustment I've seen, you end up Sheed looking like a superstar and Hamilton looking like a D-leaguer. It's obviously not right but I wouldn't count on Ilardi being able to do far better. I know Ilardi has done APM for this year, but I've never seen the results - if they really are much better he's crazy not go publish because it would really prove that his APM is a massive improvement over previous versions.

[Silver Bullet]

What Wade does without Shaq is of consequence to this season -

If he was a Jordan-eque player, he should at least get Kobe-esque results without Shaq.

What Kobe-esque results are we talking about here? 2004 to 2007? or 2007-2009, because those are completely different teams with completely different caliber of players on Kobe's side from 2007-2009.

Kobe with a horrendous supporting cast vs Wade with a bad supporting cast - is what I'm talking about.
I mean, saying he atleast had Odom is meaningless - he also had nobody else on that team, most of those guys wouldn't crack the rotation of any decent team.

And Wade did play with Odom remember, a much more productive Odom, and they only got to 42 wins - again - in the East.

[mopper8]

God I wish I was a part of this project just to argue with Silver Bullet right now. Comparing rookie Wade to prime Kobe and pretending like its an honest argument? Christ.

[NO-KG-AI]

No one said we can't interject our feelings mopsy. Tear into it

[Silver Bullet]

God I wish I was a part of this project just to argue with Silver Bullet right now. Comparing rookie Wade to prime Kobe and pretending like its an honest argument? Christ.

No I'm not - and you can argue - anybody can pitch in with their arguments....

I'm just pointing out that saying Kobe had Odom whereas Wade has nobody is ingenious....

[sp6r=underrated]

Yes, in Wade's rookie year the Heat only won 42 games.

[Sedale Threatt]

I'm just pointing out that saying Kobe had Odom whereas Wade has nobody is ingenious....

Disingenuous.

Ingenious is the exact opposite of what's going on here.

[Silver Bullet]

Yes, in Wade's rookie year the Heat only won 42 games.

Okay fine, what year do you guys want me to look at ?

When did Wade get anything done remotely close to what he did one year with Shaq playing (by your standards) at an MVP level) ?

[Doctor MJ]

It's true the Heat took a lot more free throws than the Mavs. But they only made a handful more...three to be exact.

What you are basically saying is: A team which is able to make their free throws shouldn't get the same calls?
And those calls were not just giving the Heat players opportunities at the line, which they still used more efficiently as from the field, but also caused foul trouble for the Mavericks players.

Hmm. I believe you said something like "How can you win when the other team takes so many more free throws?", so a response of "Well they made about the same number of free throws" is relevant because it says Miami won by outscoring the Mavs with field goals. It's not disputing Dallas' right to complain about the refs, but it is disputing Dallas' right to complain that the series was made impossible to win because of free throws.

[Silver Bullet]

I'm just pointing out that saying Kobe had Odom whereas Wade has nobody is ingenious....

Disingenuous.

Ingenious is the exact opposite of what's going on here.

lol. yea, you're right.

[sp6r=underrated]

Yes, in Wade's rookie year the Heat only won 42 games.

Okay fine, what year do you guys want me to look at ?

When did Wade get anything done remotely close to what he did one year with Shaq playing (by your standards) at an MVP level) ?

God, this is so dishonest. Shaq missed a quarter of the RS, his defense wasn't good. For POY purposes, his sup-par post-season, totally takes him out of competition.

To say that it was even comparable to KG is a f-cking joke.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Yes, in Wade's rookie year the Heat only won 42 games.

Okay fine, what year do you guys want me to look at ?

When did Wade get anything done remotely close to what he did one year with Shaq playing (by your standards) at an MVP level) ?

How about in 2008-2009, where he was statistically just about even with LeBron James, took a team many projected not suitable for the playoffs to there, and took Atlanta to 7 games (admittedly a let-down he didn't win, with back spasms slowing him down)?

Look at his 2008-2009 team and tell me what makes it so much more talented than Kobe's 05-06 roster. I don't see it. Beyond that, that team had a big midseason trade, bringing in Jermaine O'Neal for Shawn Marion, which obviously necessitated a large adjustment (they actually wound up with a worse record in games with JO than Marion).

Then you have 09-10, where Wade dialed his regular season performance back some, but still managed to guide his team to 47 wins, and while losing in 5 games to Boston, had one of the best statistical series of all-time (33.2 ppg on 65% TS).

[sp6r=underrated]

Yes, in Wade's rookie year the Heat only won 42 games.

Okay fine, what year do you guys want me to look at ?

When did Wade get anything done remotely close to what he did one year with Shaq playing (by your standards) at an MVP level) ?

How about in 2008-2009, where he was statistically just about even with LeBron James, took a team many projected not suitable for the playoffs to there, and took Atlanta to 7 games (admittedly a let-down he didn't win, with back spasms slowing him down)?

Look at his 2008-2009 team and tell me what makes it so much more talented than Kobe's 05-06 roster. I don't see it. Beyond that, that team had a big midseason trade, bringing in Jermaine O'Neal for Shawn Marion, which obviously necessitated a large adjustment (they actually wound up with a worse record in games with JO than Marion).

Then you have 09-10, where Wade dialed his regular season performance back some, but still managed to guide his team to 47 wins, and while losing in 5 games to Boston, had one of the best statistical series of all-time (33.2 ppg on 65% TS).

But don't you know that was in the East, so the Heat would have really won 30 games in the WC. You Wade homers make me sick.

[Baller 24]

Kobe with a horrendous supporting cast vs Wade with a bad supporting cast - is what I'm talking about.
I mean, saying he atleast had Odom is meaningless - he also had nobody else on that team, most of those guys wouldn't crack the rotation of any decent team.

And Wade did play with Odom remember, a much more productive Odom, and they only got to 42 wins - again - in the East.

I like how you define Kobe with horrendous and Wade with bad, they both didn't have good casts. Let's look at '09 Wade.

I'm not a huge fan of PER, but let's look at that for example since I've often seen you cite it.

PER for players that played a minimum of 55+ games for the Lakers in 2006:

Lamar Odom 17.0
Brain Cook 15.6
Chris Mihm 15.3
Smush Parker 13.4
Kwame Brown 11.7
Luke Walton 11.6
Deavon George 11.3
Sasha Vujacic 8.4

AVG: 13.0

PER for players that played a minimum of 55+ games (J.O included) for the Heat in 2009:

Michael Beasley 17.2
Shawn Marion (traded) 15.7
Jermaine O'Neal 15.5
Mario Chalmers 13.3
Udonis Haslem 13.1
Chris Quinn 12.9
Jamaal Magloire 10.6
Daequan Cook 10.3
Joel Anthony 9.3
Yakhouba Diawara 6.4

AVG: 12.4

Not a whole lot different, definitely not a big difference in saying Kobe's was "horrendous", while Wade's was "bad", both were proportionally bad, Wade's '09 season was either just as good if not slightly better than Kobe's '06, individually speaking. Plus the whole coaching aspect goes in Kobe's favor by a pretty SIGNIFICANT margin. Where you can also see that the Lakers beat most of their teams towards the end of the season, when pretty much everyone else was coasting. And BTW, I'm being nice by including both Marion and O'Neal.