Houston readying full-court press for Bosh

[Guy986]

Lowry + Martin + Bosh + Yao are all among the best at their respective position in drawing fouls. The Rockets would be getting 30 FT attempts every night.

[Ripp]

Can you explain what Rockets fans see in Lowry? He is a nice backup, a great defender, and good at running an offense. But his inability to shoot is the kiss of death, I think. I would never want to pay him big money for that reason alone.

-One of the best rebounding PG in the league. Before Lowry injured his calf, he was regularly getting 2 or 3 offensive rebounds per game. Even if you take the games he played injured into consideration, PER 36 minutes, only Jkidd gets more rebound than Lowry.

-One of the best defender at the 1 spot. Lowry and Brooks works great together because Lowry has the ability to defend most 2 guards.

-One of the best foul drawer at the PG position. Lowry is like Corey Maggette in PG form with a brain.

-Above average Playmaker

-Toughest little man in the league.


If Lowry can hit 3s, he'll be a star and Brooks would be shipped out imo.

Agreed. If Lowry could hit 3s, he'd be an All-Star. But until he learns to hit threes, he will be an offensive liability. Also, he was drafted in 2006. Next year will be his 5th season, and he still cannot shoot threes. How much more time will you give him? He brings a lot to the table, but is no Rondo. So unless he improves this weakness (something we have no evidence he is making progress at), then he cannot start. And if he cannot start, do you really want to pay him 5 or 6 mil a year?

[Guy986]

Yes, i think i'll instantly match an MLE offer for Lowry. Granted its not my money but i think lowry at 5/6 million is still an asset.

Lets be honest, Brooks and Martin is not a good backcourt combo. Neither of them can defend and both of them are shoot first kind of guy. This is where Lowry comes in. He fits well with either one of em.(especially Brooks) He's helluva defender/rebounder/energy guy and he can play both the 1 and 2 position. I really can't imagine the Rockets next year without Lowry.

I'll be really really disappointed if the Rockets doesn't bring him back next year.

[Indeed]

No one seems to be asking why Morey is going after Bosh in the first place. He's supposed to be above this kind of stuff. Then again, he did trade for Martin so maybe he's not as smart as I think.

Who cares - that's for Rockets fans to worry about. If Bosh is in fact going to leave, then we want the most back in exchange for him and if that's Houston, great.

When you see posters on here arguing what Bosh wants or what he thinks about a deal, they expose the fact that they care more about him than they do about how the Raptors come out in the deal.

Well, it is a relationship where you know the player's personality after years and years.
We pretty much know what Bosh is looking for, and why waste time with those second choice teams? Bosh probably not gonna choose those players, so focus on those that can satisfy his will, and get the best from it imo.
I personally think Houston is Bosh's first choice, so I am always interested in the return from Houston.

[Ripp]

No one seems to be asking why Morey is going after Bosh in the first place. He's supposed to be above this kind of stuff. Then again, he did trade for Martin so maybe he's not as smart as I think.

Who cares - that's for Rockets fans to worry about. If Bosh is in fact going to leave, then we want the most back in exchange for him and if that's Houston, great.

When you see posters on here arguing what Bosh wants or what he thinks about a deal, they expose the fact that they care more about him than they do about how the Raptors come out in the deal.

Bosh is one of my favorite player in the league, yes, and I care a lot about his interests and well-being. In particular, I don't want him ending up in a crap situation where he cannot contend, even if it means a ginormous haul for the Toronto Raptors. And if one chooses to interpret this to mean that I have more loyalty to him than to the Raps, then so be it...I am certainly under no obligation to hope that the Raps benefit at the cost of CB getting screwed.
But even if I wanted him to get screwed in a S/T, and argue vociferously that he, his agents, and the opposing GM will allow this to occur, what does it matter? Will doing so increase the haul for the Raps? Will doing so make Colangelo into a GM that doesn't get reamed in every major deal he does?
All the talk in the world won't cause CB and his agents to forget their rights, options, nor forget the precarious situation Colangelo is in. Nor will it cause the opposing GM to make a lopsided deal.

It is what it is...talking about the different outcomes is entertaining and fun, but won't likely affect the real-world outcome....unless Bosh or his agents really were stupid enough to want Turkoglu to come along for the ride, but then realized this was a bad idea after reading RealGM...

[Courtside]

But even if I wanted him to get screwed in a S/T, and argue vociferously that he, his agents, and the opposing GM will allow this to occur, what does it matter? Will doing so increase the haul for the Raps? Will doing so make Colangelo into a GM that doesn't get reamed in every major deal he does?

All the talk in the world won't cause CB and his agents to forget their rights, options, nor forget the precarious situation Colangelo is in. Nor will it cause the opposing GM to make a lopsided deal.

I never suggested any of this, though. I want a perceived fair deal for both sides, but as much as possible for the Raptors above all else. The reason I pointed that out in the first place is because it's a whole lot easier to understand why people are saying the things they are when you understand where they are coming from.

Your case has been clear for some time - but other posters that might not even be aware of their own positions until someone points out what some of the things they say might actually mean. I would never try to stifle the opinion itself - you've been more than reasonable in debating your points. Some other posters, not so much.

[Ripp]

Yes, i think i'll instantly match an MLE offer for Lowry. Granted its not my money but i think lowry at 5/6 million is still an asset.

Lets be honest, Brooks and Martin is not a good backcourt combo. Neither of them can defend and both of them are shoot first kind of guy. This is where Lowry comes in. He fits well with either one of em.(especially Brooks) He's helluva defender/rebounder/energy guy and he can play both the 1 and 2 position. I really can't imagine the Rockets next year without Lowry.

I'll be really really disappointed if the Rockets doesn't bring him back next year.

Fortunately for you, there will be a lot of PGs on the market this summer...you'd think people would look at some of the bigger names (e.g., Raymond Felton, Steve Blake, etc) before they look before they look at Lowry. Requires too much effort, in general, to construct an offense around a PG who cannot shoot, so that should also keep his value depressed..

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Fortunately for you, there will be a lot of PGs on the market this summer...you'd think people would look at some of the bigger names (e.g., Raymond Felton, Steve Blake, etc) before they look before they look at Lowry. Requires too much effort, in general, to construct an offense around a PG who cannot shoot, so that should also keep his value depressed..

Aren't young PGs who can't shoot en vogue right now?

Rose, Evans, Rondo, Westbrook...

[Ripp]

I never suggested any of this, though. I want a perceived fair deal for both sides, but as much as possible for the Raptors above all else. The reason I pointed that out in the first place is because it's a whole lot easier to understand why people are saying the things they are when you understand where they are coming from.

Your case has been clear for some time - but other posters that might not even be aware of their own positions until someone points out what some of the things they say might actually mean. I would never try to stifle the opinion itself - you've been more than reasonable in debating your points. Some other posters, not so much.

Fair enough. Another big problem I have with many of the Raps fans on this forum...like, this is CBs 7th year in the league. When you consider rookie payscales, and the fact that he is earning under 16 mil a year this season...the guy has given a shietload of value to the Raps as a franchise. Basically 7 years of vastly underpaid labor. I mean, look at how much he was making his two first All-Star years:

Code: Select all

2005-06   Toronto Raptors   NBA   $3,348,000
2006-07   Toronto Raptors   NBA   $4,235,220


For posters to then turn around and propose outlandish trades in which Turk and Calderon get lumped with Bosh in a trade strikes at my basic sense of justice, fairness, and reciprocity....no decent human being should hope for such a thing. Obviously the ruleset the game is played under (i.e., the CBA) allows for such, no matter how distasteful this is to free-market oriented people, but there have to be limits, no matter what the rules say.

At least, this is my perspective.

[Ripp]

Fortunately for you, there will be a lot of PGs on the market this summer...you'd think people would look at some of the bigger names (e.g., Raymond Felton, Steve Blake, etc) before they look before they look at Lowry. Requires too much effort, in general, to construct an offense around a PG who cannot shoot, so that should also keep his value depressed..

Aren't young PGs who can't shoot en vogue right now?

Rose, Evans, Rondo, Westbrook...

All of those guys can get to the hole at will. From what I've seen of Lowry, he does not have this ability (Rockets fans correct me if I am wrong.) Also, Rose's midrange game is money...he is either as good as Bosh from midrange or slightly better (been a while since I looked it up.)

[Skeebs]

Bosh made the all star team because we made him the franchise. Bosh would not be in the all star game those year if vince was here

[trick]

Bosh made the all star team because we made him the franchise. Bosh would not be in the all star game those year if vince was here

[Ripp]

^--- what does that even mean? Management tried to optimize the amount of wins they could get with the finite amount of resources available on the roster. It wasn't as if there was a better first option on the team, and they just gave it to him out of generosity...it was for their own good (i.e., winning games.)
Obviously if the Raps had had a better player they'd have built around him instead. But they didn't..

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Bosh made the all star team because we made him the franchise. Bosh would not be in the all star game those year if vince was here

Bosh made Bosh an all star, we gave him the opportunity. Maybe someone else would have too. Bosh earned the opportunity. I think it's fair to say we helped him do it, but not that he couldn't have done it without us.

[Ripp]

Anyway, that wasn't even my point. The point is that the CBA allows him to be vastly underpaid. Market rate for a player like Bosh for those 2 years was 16-17 mil. You got him for ~4 mil. Seven years of underpaid labor, then trying to attach bad contracts in a S/T imo leads bad karma for a franchise

[Skeebs]

Bosh made the all star team because we made him the franchise. Bosh would not be in the all star game those year if vince was here

Are you comparing Gasol and Kobe(both in prime) to a 2nd year chris bosh and vince carter

those teams would be 8th seed at best anyways

[Guy986]

Fortunately for you, there will be a lot of PGs on the market this summer...you'd think people would look at some of the bigger names (e.g., Raymond Felton, Steve Blake, etc) before they look before they look at Lowry. Requires too much effort, in general, to construct an offense around a PG who cannot shoot, so that should also keep his value depressed..

Aren't young PGs who can't shoot en vogue right now?

Rose, Evans, Rondo, Westbrook...

All of those guys can get to the hole at will. From what I've seen of Lowry, he does not have this ability (Rockets fans correct me if I am wrong.) Also, Rose's midrange game is money...he is either as good as Bosh from midrange or slightly better (been a while since I looked it up.)

Lowry goes to the hole(his whole offensive game is based on penetration since he can't shoot) but obviously not as good as Rose, Evans, Westbrook etc.

Lowry ,despite his strength, is surprisingly not a good finisher around the rim which is pretty strange to me. Most of the time, he's seeking for contact when he's attacking the basket. He tries too hard to draw fouls at times and he just throws up garbage around the rim.

All in all, i wouldn't say he's a strong scoring threat. His whole game is based on drawing fouls. If the refs are whistle happy, Lowry is dangerous. Otherwise he's a liability.

[trick]

Are you comparing Gasol and Kobe(both in prime) to a 2nd year chris bosh and vince carter

those teams would be 8th seed at best anyways

I'm saying you'd be a fool to think Carter (an SG) and Bosh (a PF) wouldn't compliment each other's games, making each other better players. Vince is not as good as Kobe while Bosh and Pau are equal IMO, but regardless they have the talent and skill to excel in many situations.
And you said:

Bosh would not be in the all star game those year if vince was here

So don't try and re-word your argument only comparing that year when Vince was pouting and Chris was still developing.

[Ripp]

One thing I must say about Kevin Martin though...it is surprising how terrible a defender he is. Yeah he is a bit skinny and frail, but he is very quick, athletic, and looks to have good length. It always cracks me up when you have guys with great physical tools who are terrible defenders (e.g., Rose.) At least a guy like Jose is physically limited, but tries very hard..

[JamesNaismith]

As long as its loaded with picks I'll be smiling ear-to-ear when it happens.



Time to bury Bosh!