The key to our offense....

[parson]

.... is still the PG. When we started this project 6 years ago with a bunch of talented youngsters running around, we impressed folks while losing. It was only when we got good PG play that we began to win.

Look at the PGs we have have: the ones we won with were Anthony Johnson (at times) and Mike Bibby. Whenever AJ had his occasional good game (due to age) we would play well; when we got Mike Bibby, we became a playoff team. I'm not saying we need Bibby - or even his particular skillset - but I AM saying we need decent-to-good PG play.

What I think happened last night is that Bibby wore out. I think it's instructive to note that we played well for the 1st qtr before we collapsed. I believe Bibby ran out of gas. He looked to be in horrible shape when ORL made their run.

Trading for Bibby gave us 3 years to acquire a PG ... and we've wasted that time. By not even trying to develop a PG (while being given TWO 1st round picks), Woodson may have messed in his own bed.

[gino_giode]

Not enough motion across the floor. Not even enough use of screens and simple plays like PnR. Too many face up ISOs instead of finding ways to get an open shot for themselves or other players nor attack the basket enough.

[killbuckner]

Its not Woodson's fault that Acie was a horrible pick. He is a coach- not a miracle worker.

Its not Woodson's fault that Salim was a horrible pick.

Time will tell on whether Woodson hasn't done enough to develop Teague or whether teague just isn't good enough to help a NBA team.

[azuresou1]

How is it not Woodson's fault that he never gives rookie PGs enough time to develop and prove themselves? It's well known that PGs need time to acclimate to NBA offenses - time that we never give.

Hell, we can't even manage to capitalize on clear matchup advantages consistently, like pounding the paint against the Bucks, or making sure the ball keeps going to the hot hand, and I'm supposed to believe that it's not Woody's fault that Josh and Al are the only two players who've really improved in the SIX years he's been here?

[killbuckner]

Acie has played for 3 teams since the Hawks and 2 hall of fame coaches have discarded him. He simply is a horrible player. He has had plenty of time to acclimate to the NBA- he simply isn't good enough to help a team. If Acie had moved on from the Hawks and blossomed in his next stop then sure you can blame Woodson- but when NO coach wants him then its because the guy simply sucks. Salim is out of hte league because he sucks. If you are an NBA coach and your GM drafts a terrible player then the only thing you can do is recognize it early and bench the guy so you don't make the problem worse.

Salim was a terrible pick.
Shelden was a terrible pick.
Acie was a terrible pick.

Its not Woodson's fault that these are the guys that he was given to work with. Salim had his chance with the Spurs who are good at developing talent- they didn't want him either. By your rationale there has never in the history of the league been a bad pick because its the coaches fault for not developing the player properly.

[parson]

Using "simply" indicates an established fact. But, kill, you're simply engaging in opinion when you talk about Acie.

Look at John Stockton: he was "simply" a "horrible player" for his 1st 3 seasons -- and that's with a great coach who is known for developing PGs. Steve Nash took 4 seasons before he stopped being "simply" "horrible" -- partly because his development was delayed by changing teams.

PGs take longer -- that's a fact you can call - not "simply" but, generally - true. It is stupid to neglect to develop one, especially when your present PG (Bibby) is on his last legs.

Maybe Acie will never work out but to say he COULD NEVER, when he was never developed by us, is pure conjecture without any basis in fact.

[azuresou1]

Nash rookie season - 10.8 PER, 11/7/3 with 3 TO Per 36 on .539 TS, .489 eFG
Tony Parker rookie season - 11.7 PER, 11/5/3 with 2.4 TO Per 36 on .497 TS, .467 eFG
Teague rookie season - 11.0 PER, 11/6/3 with 2.5 TO Per 36 on .459 TS, .412 eFG

Minutes Played First two seasons:
Nash MP - 684, 1664
TP MP - 2267, 2774
Teague MP - 719, ?
Acie Law MP - 865, 560

It takes time to season a young players, especially PG. This is something Woodson has not done with any of his young guards, despite the fact that our current starting PG now might possibly be the second worst defender in the league after Derek Fisher.

Also, calling Don Nelson a HoF coach is disingenuous, and he wasn't "discarded" by Larry Brown, he was traded as an asset along with picks to get Tyrus Thomas.

[D21]

The problem is not only great or bad pick, it's getting the best you can get from a player.

I admit that these three were bad picks, we don't know at this moment for Teague (I would have hesitate between him and Beaubois, but even if Beaubois has shown more than Teague, I don't see him as a real PG fro now).
But Woody has his part of responsibility for not having play them more, and I don't talk about them getting more playing by showing more to Woody, but about the incapacity of the starting five in majority of the previous seasons (it was better this season) to build big lead in the game.

If the starters were able to build big lead, they would have play less, not facing injury, and the bench would have play more.
But instead of that, it was 40min of ISO Joe, with no big lead, and playing time for the bench, because Woody was playing for his job, and needed to improve each year.
Maybe a longer contract would have help a little bit.

[killbuckner]

To me for any young player who doesn't see the court, its very tough to discern whether the coach just isn't playing him enough or whether the guy was a poor pick and the coach is right to bench them. The only way to determine this is to see what happens to the player once he has the chance to play for other coaches. If Salim had developed into a quality player once he went to the spurs then sure Woodson should take blame for it. But now he is out of hte league because no coach thinks he can help them and so to me its now shown that the coach doesn't matter and Woodson was right to not play Salim more. Acie is an unrestricted free agent- he can go to any team in the league that is the best fit for him. If his next coach can turn him into a quality player then sure I'll blame Woodson- but until then he has all the markings of a terrible pick.

Like I said- if you are the coach and the GM drafts a terrible player- all you can do as a coach is minimize the damage and not make it worse by wasting minutes on them. Some players are simply not good enough to help a team. Time will tell on Teague, just as time has given us more information on Salim and Acie. but to this point we haven't seen anything to make me think that Woodson misjudged either Acie or Salim and Woodson's trackrecord of judging young talent is actually quite good.

And whats disingenuous about calling Don nelson a HOF coach? Do you seriously doubt that he will make the Hall of Fame? Each of the other top 6 coaches in wins are in the hall- It would be SHOCKING if Nelson doesn't make it.

[azuresou1]

Acie has done all right in Chicago and GS in his limited playing time.
Salim is a bad pick.
Teague has shown me in his limited playing time that he has the potential, but that he's scared of getting pulled for making a mistake and he's not playing his game.

It's disingenuous because Don Nelson will obviously make the HoF, but he's quite simply not a good coach anymore. It would be like me calling Al Davis a HoF owner - sure, he was great back in the day, but he went senile sometime the turn of the millennium, and hasn't been the same since.

[killbuckner]

Nellie has had an awfully good trackrecord of getting quality play out of guys that other teams have overlooked even now. And the Warriors liked Acie so much that they declined his team option- they didn't want him even on a rookie scale contract.

And I want to be clear- I am not at all writing off Teague. I am still higher on Teague than I ever was on Acie or Salim. I'm just pointing out that we really don't have much evidence that Woodson will bench guys who are capable of helping the team. Once again- at some point a guy has enough chances and you have to just say they were a bad pick and stop blaming the coach for recognizing they were a bad pick earlier than you did.

[azuresou1]

Warriors are in cost cutting/team selling mode, one of the reasons they traded us Crawford for expirings in the first place. Sure, Acie was on a rookie scale, but he was a lotto pick, and it's cheaper to sign D-League callups for the minimum. Acie was due for $2.5M with the option picked up - Tolliver, Morrow, and Cartier Martin COMBINED will make less.

In any case, playing Teague just 865 minutes is for me inexcusable, especially when he can actually defend very well for a rookie PG, and our current starting PG can't defend a chair.

[killbuckner]

Acie is going to be an unrestricted free agent this offseason. He can sign with the team in the league that gives him the best chance to succeed. If he fails yet again will you start to admit that maybe Woodson was right to now waste more minutes on Acie? If Acie breaks out then I'll certainly put more blame on Woodson.

[azuresou1]

Sure. And if Acie doesn't quite "break out" yet has a decent season (15-ish PER)?

[HoopsGuru25]

From a skill or physical standpoint....what did Acie ever do that was better than the average NBA point guard?

[parson]

To me for any young player who doesn't see the court, its very tough to discern whether the coach just isn't playing him enough or whether the guy was a poor pick and the coach is right to bench them. The only way to determine this is to see what happens to the player once he has the chance to play for other coaches.

I would argue that moving a player from coach to coach is detrimental to that player, not an indication that he's been given a fair chance.

The only fair chance is time. PG takes longer to learn than any other position.

Acie went from Woodson's iso-based offense to Nelson's creative-but-esoteric schemes to Brown's whip to scare Augustin to CHI, where he finally showed a spark. Where's the continuity in all that?

[killbuckner]

Parson- Acie has been with 4 coaches now and none of them thought he was good enough to give minutes to. This offseason he can sign anywhere he wants to and find a coach that fits his "style" perfectly. Maybe his first 4 coaches were all wrong about him and he will blossom as a UFA. But I'd sure be willing to bet against that happening. At some point you have to earn minutes.

[parson]

Kill, you're repeating yourself now, so let me say something new: Woodson indeed treated Acie as if he didn't think he could play but Nelson had Curry to play; do you really think Acie was going to get Curry's minutes? Brown had Augustin to fit in under Felton; where were minutes going to come from in that case? In CHI, Rose was going to get the minutes. To say of those coaches that "none of them thought he was good enough" is to ignore the young players they HAD to play.

But, most important, all this ignores the main point, that Woodson HAS to have a good PG, but has woefully neglected to develop that necessary position. Woodson wants to just plug in a veteran who'll play without coaching. That kind of attitude will almost never let us grow our own PG. And this team, without a PG, is a joke on offense.