Retro POY '03-04 (Voting Complete)

[mysticbb]

When the finals end, I stop reading realgm. I generally make like 2-10 posts between July-October.

I guess I will also have a time span in the summer were I will not be able to contribute like I'm doing it right now. But I also guess, that Doc MJ will not have a BIG problem when I send him my votes for two or three years via pm ahead of schedule. And as I understand it right now, we are making 3 years per week, right?

[JordansBulls]

In the interests of disclose, I'll list some of my biases. By biases, I generally mean players were my personal evaluation of them differs largely from the general consensus on the board. I'll also add in if I'm a huge fan/hater of that play

For: Duncan (followed him since his days at Wake), Ewing (childhood idol, though looking back with objectivity has been disappointing for me), Nash,
Against: Kobe (don't think his peak as high as others do), Isiah, Stockton, Olajuwon, 1980s in general (I don't think the decade was this perfect era of basketball that so many believe),

My favorite team is the knicks, but since moving to the mid-west I haven't been able to watch them as much as I would like. Hopefully, a certain free agent will ensure more national knick games. Other teams I have liked over the years: mid 90s Sonics, Duncan's Spurs, warming up to current Magic, any any team who played MJ bulls.

The first year I remember watching an NBA game was 1988 but I was a kid then and had no clue what was going on. I would say 96 was around the year I stopped making arguments like Ewing > MJ.

I think the 2004 season was hurt by rules mostly. The NBA allowed zone but still allowed heavy hand-checking. This made it very difficult for the best players to really break through, and allowed inferior player/teams to stay close by uglying the game up.

Alright, here is my vote:

1. KG: I think this is an obvious vote, so I'm not going to spend too much time explaining it. KG was the best player in the RS by a large margin. He was also the best player in the PS.

2. TD: I'm biased but I felt he was the 2nd best player this year.
3. Shaquille O'Neal: Overall I felt he was still the lakers best player this year. I think his numbers took a drop mostly because he sacrificed some of his game for his teammates.
4. Dirk:
5. Kobe: his general poor performance in the PS took him down a spot.

HM
Kidd
Wallace

Generally speaking where did you rank Ewing in the 90's?

[sp6r=underrated]

In the interests of disclose, I'll list some of my biases. By biases, I generally mean players were my personal evaluation of them differs largely from the general consensus on the board. I'll also add in if I'm a huge fan/hater of that play

For: Duncan (followed him since his days at Wake), Ewing (childhood idol, though looking back with objectivity has been disappointing for me), Nash,
Against: Kobe (don't think his peak as high as others do), Isiah, Stockton, Olajuwon, 1980s in general (I don't think the decade was this perfect era of basketball that so many believe),

My favorite team is the knicks, but since moving to the mid-west I haven't been able to watch them as much as I would like. Hopefully, a certain free agent will ensure more national knick games. Other teams I have liked over the years: mid 90s Sonics, Duncan's Spurs, warming up to current Magic, any any team who played MJ bulls.

The first year I remember watching an NBA game was 1988 but I was a kid then and had no clue what was going on. I would say 96 was around the year I stopped making arguments like Ewing > MJ.

I think the 2004 season was hurt by rules mostly. The NBA allowed zone but still allowed heavy hand-checking. This made it very difficult for the best players to really break through, and allowed inferior player/teams to stay close by uglying the game up.

Alright, here is my vote:

1. KG: I think this is an obvious vote, so I'm not going to spend too much time explaining it. KG was the best player in the RS by a large margin. He was also the best player in the PS.

2. TD: I'm biased but I felt he was the 2nd best player this year.
3. Shaquille O'Neal: Overall I felt he was still the lakers best player this year. I think his numbers took a drop mostly because he sacrificed some of his game for his teammates.
4. Dirk:
5. Kobe: his general poor performance in the PS took him down a spot.

HM
Kidd
Wallace

Generally speaking where did you rank Ewing in the 90's?

During the early 90s, I was convinced Ewing was the best player in the NBA. LOL.

[Doctor MJ]

:/ Guys, I know we want to explain the Pistons' success somehow, but are some of you guys really thinking Ben Wallace had the 5th best individual season that year? I mean, I know I'm not much better with Peja, but I'll switch to an injured McGrady or Kidd, or an underwhelming Dirk, or even a mostly-overhyped Jermaine O'Neal if it will keep this project from deciding that Ben Wallace was the 5th best player in the NBA in 2003-2004. Just say it aloud: you know you don't believe it.

Okay, really REALLY don't switch your to keep a player out of the top 5. I'm guessing you're saying this tongue in cheek, but this is something I'm a hardass about.

[Gongxi]

Well, it was kinda tongue in cheek. I really don't think Ben Wallace the fifth best player in the league that year and I don't think many people really think that either, if they give it a lot of thought. But I'm by no means married to Peja placing fifth there. That could sway with a strong argument.

That I'd consider deal-making a changing my vote and stuff- that was a joke.

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Garnett
2. Duncan
3. Kobe
4. Shaq
5. Ben

I don't think any explanation is necessary for the first 2.

Kobe & Shaq broke my heart, really did. I've never felt the same about either of them after the feud. I feel like neither deserve to be in the top 5, but there's really no one to put ahead of them considering they still almost won the title (and who knows what happens if Malone is healthy). Between these two it's close and I give the nod to Kobe because I consider Shaq to be a much bigger cause of the chemistry-killing negative energy that led to the Laker diaspora.

#5 - so tough to pick anybody this year. I was anal about Sedale putting a joke vote here, but I understand why he did it. That's why an incomplete player like Ben gets the nod. Simply put he was the foundation on which the Pistons built something that was the total anti-thesis of the Shaq-Kobe Lakers, and he really was at his best come playoff time. The anchor of maybe the best defense I've ever seen.

Honorable Mention - which unfortunately will sound really negative this year because I feel like I have to say why I didn't pick them over Ben Wallace:

Jermaine O'Neal & Peja Stojakovic - Poster boys for what was wrong with this year. Simply put, the best players on two elite teams, who really had gaps in their games as wide as Ben does.

Kidd - Put some serious thought into Kidd for the 5th spot. Here's the thing though - it really drives me nuts when a point guard shoots terribly. In the case of someone like Kidd, that doesn't stop him from ever being in my top 5, but I also don't have a problem putting incomplete guys ahead of him because I consider Kidd to be incomplete himself. But to say a good thing about the guy - Kidd continued to have terrific impact this year. Still the best point guard in the land.

Billups - The beginning of a semi-superstar run from Billups. At this point though, I still don't think he had the impact of Ben.

Dirk - Also put some thought into Dirk at #5. Thing is, the year was really a down year for Dirk, and I honestly can't put him above Peja. You compare their regular seasons, and it's just obvious Peja stood out more. The post-season exposed Peja, and Dirk started showing what we know he's capable of, but how much am I going to lift a guy for playing well while losing in the first round in a series that really isn't close?

Last, Not an Honorable Mentioned - McGrady. When a team stumbles like the Magic stumbled, the players responsible don't get love from me. Worst team in the league, and the next year without McGrady they nearly doubled their wins. I know what peak McGrady is capable of, and I don't mean to knock him, but considering just this year, nothing for TMac.

[lorak]

I wonder if it’s possible to put Duncan over KG, but after some research I know it’s not possible
So I guess we will have first unanimous choice and if not I hope that voter will have very good explanation.

Overall first four is obvious, but after that it’s interesting: Ben, McGrady, Nowitzki and Kidd.

[Doctor MJ]

I wonder if it’s possible to put Duncan over KG, but after some research I know it’s not possible
So I guess we will have first unanimous choice and if not I hope that voter will have very good explanation.

Overall first four is obvious, but after that it’s interesting: Ben, McGrady, Nowitzki and Kidd.

I picked Garnett #1 without hesitation, but I don't see a Duncan vote as that out there. Probably closer than LeBron vs anyone else the last couple years imho.

[Silver Bullet]

In the interests of disclose, I'll list some of my biases. By biases, I generally mean players were my personal evaluation of them differs largely from the general consensus on the board. I'll also add in if I'm a huge fan/hater of that play

For: Duncan (followed him since his days at Wake), Ewing (childhood idol, though looking back with objectivity has been disappointing for me), Nash,
Against: Kobe (don't think his peak as high as others do), Isiah, Stockton, Olajuwon, 1980s in general (I don't think the decade was this perfect era of basketball that so many believe),

Alright, here is my vote:

1. KG: I think this is an obvious vote, so I'm not going to spend too much time explaining it. KG was the best player in the RS by a large margin. He was also the best player in the PS.

2. TD: I'm biased but I felt he was the 2nd best player this year.
3. Shaquille O'Neal: Overall I felt he was still the lakers best player this year. I think his numbers took a drop mostly because he sacrificed some of his game for his teammates.
4. Dirk:
5. Kobe: his general poor performance in the PS took him down a spot.

HM
Kidd
Wallace

I wish everybody would do what you just did - I'm certain we'd have Kobe and Nash in atleast 15 againsts -

Btw, does the vote mean you're officially in now ?

[ElGee]

I wonder if it’s possible to put Duncan over KG, but after some research I know it’s not possible
So I guess we will have first unanimous choice and if not I hope that voter will have very good explanation.

Overall first four is obvious, but after that it’s interesting: Ben, McGrady, Nowitzki and Kidd.

I can understand Duncan sweeping 03-05 and I can understand KG sweeping 03-05.

I gave the nod to Duncan in 05 (and probably will again in 03 after that postseason) but I always felt KG was better in a number of ways, with Duncan having a slight edge in end-game reliability. I spent much of that period arguing if Garnett and Duncan had comparable teammates, they would have gone back and forth like Bird and Magic (which may seem uninspiring today, but at the time it was not a popular opinion).

Later in the thread, I'll try and outline some of this more. In general, I'm surprised we haven't seen more macroscopic posts regarding player's peaks. There have been some on Nash and Dirk, and hopefully we'll see more on Duncan and Garnett. Maybe we just need to get back into the 90s and earlier to start really hashing out player vs. player, when it won't be a parade of advanced stats and accepted opinion.

[sp6r=underrated]

Part of the reason, why people are so firm in their positions is that we all remember these seasons and they occurred so recently. I'm sure the farther back we go the less firm the positions will get.

[ElGee]

Part of the reason, why people are so firm in their positions is that we all remember these seasons and they occurred so recently. I'm sure the farther back we go the less firm the positions will get.

Well, we all think we remember them. Confidence does not equal accuracy,

[Baller 24]

KG is a given number 1 this season, Shaq and Duncan are going to round up the top three for me it seems. Kidd is creeping in, but I'm still thinking more, Kobe shouldn't be in the top 5 IMO shot bad in the playoffs and finals, only shot 41% for a player that attempted the most FGA and made the most FGM.

[Baller 24]

Last, Not an Honorable Mentioned - McGrady. When a team stumbles like the Magic stumbled, the players responsible don't get love from me. Worst team in the league, and the next year without McGrady they nearly doubled their wins. I know what peak McGrady is capable of, and I don't mean to knock him, but considering just this year, nothing for TMac.

I really don't think it's not fair to look at the overall win total to compare what kind of impact he had. I wasn't around for the '05 thread, but I would have definitely voted him in the top 5 considering what kind of impact he had on the Rockets overall team, he was playing fantastic defense, and he actually held Dirk to like 35% shooting during the games he guarded him completely.. Anyways, as for this, the '05 Magic team had a healthy Grant Hill (remember he got voted onto the all-star game, he did something like 19/5/5), they had a double-double Rookie in Dwight Howard, and a 21/6/5 Steve Francis. They were actually on pace to make the playoffs until they ran into some injuries, but again, my point is it's a completely different team, and I don't think it's fair to knock him on the win total. As for T-Mac's impact, during his Rockets seasons up until '09, I don't think anyone knew this, but the Rockets had something around a 30 percent winning percentage in games without McGrady (this includes Yao), and over something like a 65 percent winning percentage in games with him, so yeah, it's a thread too late, but just stating some information.

[ElGee]

Last, Not an Honorable Mentioned - McGrady. When a team stumbles like the Magic stumbled, the players responsible don't get love from me. Worst team in the league, and the next year without McGrady they nearly doubled their wins. I know what peak McGrady is capable of, and I don't mean to knock him, but considering just this year, nothing for TMac.

I really don't think it's not fair to look at the overall win total to compare what kind of impact he had. I wasn't around for the '05 thread, but I would have definitely voted him in the top 5 considering what kind of impact he had on the Rockets overall team, he was playing fantastic defense, and he actually held Dirk to like 35% shooting during the games he guarded him completely.. Anyways, as for this, the '05 Magic team had a healthy Grant Hill (remember he got voted onto the all-star game, he did something like 19/5/5), they had a double-double Rookie in Dwight Howard, and a 21/6/5 Steve Francis. They were actually on pace to make the playoffs until they ran into some injuries, but again, my point is it's a completely different team, and I don't think it's fair to knock him on the win total. As for T-Mac's impact, during his Rockets seasons up until '09, I don't think anyone knew this, but the Rockets had something around a 30 percent winning percentage in games without McGrady (this includes Yao), and over something like a 65 percent winning percentage in games with him, so yeah, it's a thread too late, but just stating some information.

His defensive on/off was like +9.1 (bad) during the season and +18.1 in the playoffs. There's a lot of noise in that stat, but he probably wasn't play very good defense all year based on that.

McGrady was close to my top 5 last year, FWIW. Interesting to see what happens to him in 03...

[Baller 24]

His defensive on/off was like +9.1 (bad) during the season and +18.1 in the playoffs. There's a lot of noise in that stat, but he probably wasn't play very good defense all year based on that.

McGrady was close to my top 5 last year, FWIW. Interesting to see what happens to him in 03...

Yeah, but he was 5th in defensive win-shares, and 7th in steals. Yeah I completely agree, he was very dominant in '03 and '02.

[Gongxi]

McGrady would've definitely made my top 5 in this season had he played more.

[Baller 24]

Looking through this season, it seems a lot of players overall efficiencies dropped, I think I've solidified my Top 4 so far, just deciding on the 5th. I've got KG, Duncan, Shaq, and JO down for sure, but still thinking through the 5th. JO's overall defensive impact was pretty huge, his effectiveness in the playoffs remained the same, and although he didn't shoot too well, I don't really look at it as a knock, considering they were the team with the most wins throughout the entire NBA.

[TMACFORMVP]

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaquille O'neal

After those it's tougher IMO. Kobe missed some games, had off the court problems and was absolutely horrendous in the Finals. I guess Shaq missed some games too, but I felt he was the more impactful player both in the regular season and definitely the playoffs. I can't honestly put Ben Wallace on my list. I mean, he was awesome defensively, 12 boards and 3 blocks, he just wasn't a good enough player offensively to justify a top five spot even in a relatively down year.

Kidd had a solid year, but he was terrible shooting the ball, same with JO (both of whom were worse in the post-season). Peja is interesting, he was 2nd in the league in scoring, and with Webber missing nearly the entire season, the Kings still were able to win 55+ games. He shot 48/43/92 from the field and took the T-Wolves to seven games (was only a three point loss despite Garnett's amazing game). But what's holding me back with him was that Peja was rather pathetic in the playoffs. His scoring average nearly dipped seven points, and his shooting numbers plummeted to 38/31/89 from the field. Webber was back, and both he and Bibby outplayed him statistically.

Dirk was still doing 22/9 and 46% from the floor. Won 52 games, but got beat rather easily by the aforementioned Kings. Not really his fault though, he did 27/12 on just over 45%. Finley, Nash, and Walker were terrible shooting the ball. Iverson doesn't make the cut, missed nearly half the season, shot terribly from the floor and Sixers were terrible, pretty much similar with McGrady. If the Hornets hadn't lost to the Heat in the first round, then Baron could have possibly been a candidate, though like Kidd and JO, the efficiency was terrible - and worse in the post-season.

I'm looking at every candidate and it seems it's bound to pick a low percentage shooter. And by this standard, Kobe might actually be "efficient," compared to his contemporaries. I honestly came into the thread thinking he wouldn't be in my top 5, but he did do roughly 25/5/6 prior to the finals on 42-43%. In the finals he was terrible, but he still would shoot better than guys like Baron, Iverson, Kidd, and Peja in the playoffs.

4. Kobe Bryant

That 5th guy is tough, I think I'd probably lean JO. Did his 20/10 thing on the season, and he with Artest anchored an elite defense. I'm contemplating between him or Kidd, but considering I'm knocking JO for his efficiency, it'd be ironic that I'd choose an even LESS efficient player than him.

And honestly, I'm considering Wallace here more too (because of lack of competition), but the notion, in which I agree with was that the Pistons were a cohesive team unit that wasn't led by a superstar. Now all of a sudden in a retrospective view the Pistons had a top 5 player during that season?? I'm fine with the past threads, guys like KG, and Duncan were the clear cut best players on their team, and among the best in the league. Thus, getting a possible inflation in their value is fine. But in Wallace's case, I still can't go back to justifying he's a top 5 player. It's either him or Dirk. In general I feel Dirk is the better player, but JO's defensive impact and more playoff success probably gives him the edge.

5. Jermaine O'neal

[Baller 24]

1) Kevin Garnett
2) Tim Duncan
3) Shaquille O'neal
4) Jermaine O'neal
5) Kobe Bryant

I know I stated earlier that I don't think Kobe deserves to be in the top 5, but all of the other players drop off even WORST in the playoffs. Kidd was a pick for me, but he dropped off pretty badly in the playoffs, another thing was Billups, but as I thought about it, that Pistons team was more of an overall team game. KG/TD/Shaq had great seasons, led their teams to success, JO's offensive efficiency drop off isn't that pretty to look at, but his defensive impact was pretty powerful, and he was third in MVP voting, leading the team to the best record is pretty huge, considering they were the only 60 win team that season IMO.