Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST)

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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#81 » by Baller 24 » Sun May 9, 2010 6:07 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:Anybody who doesn't pick him for the next three is going to have some serious explaining to do.

And I'm already girding my loins for the Olajuwon onslaught for the late 80s and early 90s.


Touche, I think for the first time I'm going to be agreeing heavily with Silver Bullet. But it can be argued in '02, though it's hard to argue against him since he was so damn dominant in the post-season.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#82 » by Sedale Threatt » Sun May 9, 2010 6:09 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:I'll let people know while Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2001 he doesn't have it for 2002, and I'm more than willing to give you the explaining.


You can start tommorrow. :D

I'm sure it's going to revolve around the games missed and lack of consistent effort, but to me it was basically the same situation in 01.

Personally, seven extra games missed don't make all that much difference. But that's just me.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#83 » by drza » Sun May 9, 2010 6:13 pm

Garnett's third accomplishment

I've been doing drive-by posts about Garnett's huge '03 season. So far I've pointed out that he won 51 games with the worst cast for a 51-win team I've ever heard of, and that in order to accomplish this he had to turn in the most impactful season of (at least) the last 8 years with a ridiculous +23 on-court/off-court +/- . So for his third historic accomplishment for '03, let's look more at KG as an individual and how he registered such a huge impact.

In 2003, Garnett became the only player in NBA history to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals by both totals AND average. Four players besides Garnett have led their teams by totals, but all four of those other players actually had a teammate that averaged more than them in at least one category that simply didn't play enough games. Not Garnett.

No, Garnett actually was the best scorer, best rebounder, best passer, best at playing the passing lanes, best at protecting the rim, best man defender, best...you name it, KG was the best at it on his team. And it's not just that he was best on his team in these categories...he was second in the league in rebounds, 7th in points, 13th in assists (tops among non-point guards), 16th in blocks, and just outside of the top-20 in steals...no, Garnett was actually among the best in the NBA in each of those different categories.

So now, put that back into context with his first two accomplishments that I mentioned. 51 wins is always pretty good, but it is only a huge accomplishment for a team leader if he doesn't have much help. The net +/- numbers strongly implies that Garnett didn't have much help (after KG's +22.8, the next highest net +/- for a Wolves starter was Wally at +2.6 http://82games.com/0203MIN.HTM ). So now, on top of all that, we also have the box score numbers independently corroborating that no one team has ever relied upon one player to do more for them than the '03 Wolves relied upon KG and that he performed all of these diverse jobs at an extremely high level.

KG's unique accomplishment as the only player in NBA history to lead his team in every major traditional stat is the third reason why he should be the 2003 player of the year.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#84 » by Gongxi » Sun May 9, 2010 6:17 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
Baller 24 wrote:
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5. McGrady -- Outstanding season. This probably shouldn't play a factor, but I view this as something of a fluke season, which mars the luster in my mind.


I'm just curious, I know it's not considered as a factor, but can you please point out the "fluke" in his season? I'd just like to get your opinion on it, because I pretty much have seen all 82 games of the Orlando Magic during that season (including the game against the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq where McGrady and Kobe are going at it and all that great stuff---where McGrady closes out the 4th hitting pretty much every kind of shot on Kobe).



Looking back over his career, it just sticks out like a sore thumb. There are some really good seasons before and after, but nothing on the same level. I know everyone's got a peak, but I'm not sure I've ever seen such a substantial one-year spike.


I totally agree, but I don't know why that should be counted against him.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#85 » by Gongxi » Sun May 9, 2010 6:18 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:I'll let people know while Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2001 he doesn't have it for 2002, and I'm more than willing to give you the explaining.


Same.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#86 » by Sedale Threatt » Sun May 9, 2010 6:23 pm

So it appears, for the extremely narrow purposes of this little project, that KG's crappy teammates actually helped him quite a bit.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#87 » by Sedale Threatt » Sun May 9, 2010 6:25 pm

Gongxi wrote:I totally agree, but I don't know why that should be counted against him.


It probably shouldn't. I'm just having a tough time putting him ahead of Kobe -- for a number of reasons.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#88 » by sp6r=underrated » Sun May 9, 2010 6:27 pm

Retract that I'm voting for Shaq next year.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#89 » by Gongxi » Sun May 9, 2010 6:42 pm

Since it's does have a bearing on this year's voting, I feel like I should say something: If you're placing Kobe ahead of McGrady this season because he played more of his team's games although played a little worse, you should extend Duncan that same courtesy vis-a-vis Shaq next year. Or, if you're gonna put Shaq at #1, disregarding the games played discrepancy, extend that courtesy to McGrady.

02-03
Bryant: 94 games played/94 games possible= 100%
McGrady: 82 games played/89 games possible: 92%
01-02
Duncan: 92 games played/92 games possible=100%
O'Neal: 86 games played/101 games possible= 85%

Obviously, all things aren't equal. Two different players, having two different season, compared to two different players with their own two different seasons. But, food for though.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#90 » by TMACFORMVP » Sun May 9, 2010 6:44 pm

I'd agree Duncan, and KG should both be #1 and #2, but I'm curious to know the response to:

a.) Why were the Lakers the worst team in the league defending the three point line (opponents shooting .380 from behind the arc against them)? And for overall defensive FG%, they were also well below the league average? And is it possible that without Shaq, Kobe's defense got possibly a tad bit overrated because of the offensive load he had to carry? I mean look at the top wings from the 15 games Shaq missed:

Code: Select all

Steve Smith – 12 points on 5-7 shooting.
Derek Anderson – 6 points on 3-9 shooting
Corey Maggette – 16 points on 6-10 shooting
Derek Anderson – 24 points, on 9-15 shooting
Ricky Davis – 24 points on 8-18 shooting
Paul Pierce – 28 points on 11-25 (guys like Eric Williams and Delk had huge games also)
Jerry Stackhouse – 29 points on 9-23 shooting.
Jason Terry – 21 points on 7-16 shooting
Jason Richardson – 11 points on 5-17 shooting
Cuttino Mobley – 15 points on 4-13
Michael Finley  - 18 points on 7-19
Stephen Jackson – 28 points on 10-18
Matt Harpring – 21 points on 8-11 shooting
Cuttino Mobley – 16 points on 5-15
Allan Houston – 53 points on 18-29


Total PPG: 21.4 points per game on .469% from the floor

Even if you don't want to include the Allan Houston game, those wings averaged just over 19.1 points per game while still shooting 45% from the floor. Now I know there are a multitude of factors that go into such statistics like this, but the bottom line is, if Kobe is this ridiculous lock down defender, he should have guarded these perimeter players that were on their game, and limited them far more than what their production showed against the Lakers.

Games played and minutes was part of my reasoning. Including the playoffs, Kobe played 12 more games and 670 more minutes. That's significant.


That's a bad argument once you factor in the playoffs. That's a completely different scenario, where it's not an equal opportunity for everyone to play the same amount of games. To fault McGrady in the regular season for missing seven games, that'd be a somewhat legitimate argument, but to include playoffs is reaching IMO. I mean Shaq averaged 28/13/3 with 3 blocks in the first round against the T-Wolves, if McGrady had that type of production, I'm sure he would have played a few more playoff games as well.

That sort of argument could even be applied to players that played a full season. Like in 05-06 where Kobe played pretty much a full year (80 games), but a player like LeBron would have technically played 5 more games than Kobe and over 400 more minutes in that same season. While in just the regular season alone, Bron actually played ONE LESS game than Kobe did.

To me, that's a faulty argument when you factor in playoffs to talk about ones durability.

I realize that the Lakers didn't do too well without Shaq (and Fox, mind you), but it's important to look at who else was on the roster and who their opponents were if we're going to judge team performance. The Lakers were not going to play that difficult of a schedule the entire season, so there's no reason to suggest they would have finished with 27 wins.


I agree they wouldn't have finished with 27 wins, but it is quite telling that they lost to all sorts of competition (meaning they didn't just lose to the guys they were supposed to). They played four Eastern Conference teams in that stretch, the Cavs, Hawks, Celtics, and Wizards, all of which were losses.

Anyways, it's about time I voted:

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. McGrady
4. Bryant
5. O'neal

Though to be honest, I'm still wavering on the placement of Shaq. I was even strongly considering him to put over BOTH McGrady and Kobe. The only thing against him was the number of games he missed, but his impact was still there. 45-22 with him in the lineup, opposed to 5-10 without. And roughly 28/11/3 and 2+ blocks on 59% in the regular season (27/15 in the playoffs). I think he was the better player between the three. Could be subject to change, but I believe that will be my list. You might not believe it, but I strongly considered Kobe over McGrady as well, haha.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#91 » by Sedale Threatt » Sun May 9, 2010 6:45 pm

No, games played are not a factor. I didn't even look at that, to be honest.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#92 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun May 9, 2010 6:47 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:I'll let people know while Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2001 he doesn't have it for 2002, and I'm more than willing to give you the explaining.

Hmmm, Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2002, but not 2001. Although I see a case for TD in 02'(although his playoffs will knock him to 3rd with me).
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#93 » by sp6r=underrated » Sun May 9, 2010 6:47 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:No, games played are not a factor. I didn't even look at that, to be honest.


I'm curious, how do you feel about some of Shaq's late 90s season? For instance in 97 he missed 31 games. Does missing that much time matter to you?
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#94 » by sp6r=underrated » Sun May 9, 2010 6:48 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:I'll let people know while Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2001 he doesn't have it for 2002, and I'm more than willing to give you the explaining.

Hmmm, Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2002, but not 2001. Although I see a case for TD in 02'(although his playoffs will knock him to 3rd with me).


I actually changed my mind and would vote for Shaq in 2002. Why do you consider Duncan's playoffs to be that much of a negative?
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#95 » by Baller 24 » Sun May 9, 2010 6:49 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:I'll let people know while Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2001 he doesn't have it for 2002, and I'm more than willing to give you the explaining.

Hmmm, Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2002, but not 2001. Although I see a case for TD in 02'(although his playoffs will knock him to 3rd with me).


Who's '01? AI? I thought Shaq would be a no brainier in '00 and '01.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#96 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun May 9, 2010 6:50 pm

#1 Duncan

#2 Kobe

#3 Shaq

#4 KG

#5 Tmac


Duncan was the best player from start to finish. I thought him and Kobe equalled each other during the regular seaosn, but TD's playoff performance makes him an easy #1 choice. Should have been DPOY

Kobe lands at #2. If it wasn't for his 35+ point/40+ point streaks where LA went 12-2, they may have missed the playoffs. I think some forget that LA was hanging around the #10 seed half the year. Elite defense, 40+ ppg month(first in 40 years), and great stats puts him just above Shaq.

Shaq got healthy on "company time" this year, and falls to #3. Still a domiant force, this was the year we saw the decline happening with the Diesel.

KG had a solid year at #4, but got bounced in the 1st round with HCA against an injured LA squad. Gret stats, not as impactful as you would think though.

Tmac finsihes the list at #5. Great offesnive year for Tmac(except in the clutch). Defensively he was average at best, and his leadership was non-existent. Many times after a game he would call out his teammates. Started great in the Detroit series, but had a huge fail at the end including a horrible 7-24 Game 7
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#97 » by sp6r=underrated » Sun May 9, 2010 6:50 pm

Baller 24 wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:I'll let people know while Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2001 he doesn't have it for 2002, and I'm more than willing to give you the explaining.

Hmmm, Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2002, but not 2001. Although I see a case for TD in 02'(although his playoffs will knock him to 3rd with me).


Who's '01? AI? I thought Shaq would be a no brainier in '00 and '01.


I think AUF will be voting for Kobe based on his excellent performance in 01 playoffs. I could be wrong though.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#98 » by Baller 24 » Sun May 9, 2010 6:53 pm

And how is Duncan being knocked down to third after winning an MVP? Let me guess, behind Kobe? There is absolutely no way Duncan is any lower than second in '02.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#99 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun May 9, 2010 6:55 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:I'll let people know while Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2001 he doesn't have it for 2002, and I'm more than willing to give you the explaining.

Hmmm, Shaq has my vote for 2000 and 2002, but not 2001. Although I see a case for TD in 02'(although his playoffs will knock him to 3rd with me).


I actually changed my mind and would vote for Shaq in 2002. Why do you consider Duncan's playoffs to be that much of a negative?

The SA vs LA series really soured me on Duncan that year. I think he had Two 9-32 performances in that series alone, and Kobe had Three 10+ 4th quarter explosions to steal games SA should have won. Overall, I think I'll be picking Shaq first, then Kobe, then Duncan. But I'll listen to other opinions when we get to that year.
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Re: Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST) 

Post#100 » by Sedale Threatt » Sun May 9, 2010 6:56 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:No, games played are not a factor. I didn't even look at that, to be honest.


I'm curious, how do you feel about some of Shaq's late 90s season? For instance in 97 he missed 31 games. Does missing that much time matter to you?


Well, that's getting pretty substantial -- nearly half the schedule. I can't put a hard number on any kind of threshold, but 10-15 isn't really that big a deal in my opinion. Especially when you're crushing everyone in your path when healthy.

Although, I will say that the fact Shaq's absences were probably at least partially related to his lack of conditioning is certainly not a positive in his favor.

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