Retro POY '01-02 (ends Thu morning PST)

[semi-sentient]

No, they weren't similar. Duncan had better support on both ends, but that doesn't lessen his impact IMO.

[drza]

I do agree that Pops has better defensive schemes, but remember how the voting turned out in 07-08? Garnett beats out Kobe because people were raving about how he came in and changed everything, and people were going out of their way to talk down how much guys like Perkins, Pierce, and Allen were contributing, never mind the defensive schemes of one Tom Thibodeau. Has Duncan ever come close to getting that kind of credit? IMO, people overrated Garnett that season and the result was that he stole a POY.

Actually...yeah. A strong part of Duncan's greatness has always been tied into him being a historic defensive anchor, as evidenced by the Spurs' consistently strong defense and his great defensive ratings. As with other results, Garnett supporters had been arguing on message boards for years that he was as good of a defender as Duncan but just didn't have the teammates that Duncan did. On the whole that was a losing line of attack...until KG showed it in Boston.

To me, the '08 Celtics with Thib's scheme and players like Perk and Rondo was the first time in Garnett's career that he had either a defensive scheme OR defensive teammates on the order of what Duncan has enjoyed over the course of his career...let alone both. Nobody is (at least I'm not) saying that defensive scheme or teammate caliber don't matter for Garnett...they obviously do. But just like Pop, Admiral and Bowen aren't considered to be the reasons that Duncan is an all-time defensive great big man, Thibs, Perk and Rondo shouldn't be held against Garnett either.

Likewise, the fact that Garnett spent the majority of his career playing under lesser defensive schemes with sieve-like perimeter defenders while Duncan never had that issue makes team defense a rather weak way to compare them IMO. Between observation, defensive accolades, the defensive on-court/off-court stats available on 82games since '02-03, and the results that Garnett got as soon as he enjoyed a similar cast/scheme we get IMO a much more realistic comparison of Garnett and Duncan as individual defenders than simply looking at team results.

[NO-KG-AI]

I agree, I don't think KG is clearly better on offense because historically he has a better offensive team record.

Guess that was my point

[Silver Bullet]

I regret my rankings for 02-03. I come into this thread thinking Shaq should be the POY. But when you compare his statistics to 02-03, it's in fact worse all across the board. He rebounds worse, he scores less, he assists less, he shoots nearly 7% worse from the line, blocks at a lesser rate and plays less minutes all while playing the EXACT same amount of games. The main reason why Shaq was not higher than #5 was because of the games missed. But now when he misses the same amount of games, and Duncan has an even better regular season, it's now likely going to be reversed? Hell, the Lakers went 7-8 in the games Shaq missed, better than the 5-10 it was in 02-03. And in the playoffs, he shoots worse, rebounds worse, and assists less than he did in 02-03.

You can still change your vote for 02-03 - voting doesn't end till tomorrow morning.

[Doctor MJ]

I regret my rankings for 02-03. I come into this thread thinking Shaq should be the POY. But when you compare his statistics to 02-03, it's in fact worse all across the board. He rebounds worse, he scores less, he assists less, he shoots nearly 7% worse from the line, blocks at a lesser rate and plays less minutes all while playing the EXACT same amount of games. The main reason why Shaq was not higher than #5 was because of the games missed. But now when he misses the same amount of games, and Duncan has an even better regular season, it's now likely going to be reversed? Hell, the Lakers went 7-8 in the games Shaq missed, better than the 5-10 it was in 02-03. And in the playoffs, he shoots worse, rebounds worse, and assists less than he did in 02-03.

You can still change your vote for 02-03 - voting doesn't end till tomorrow morning.

Just wanted to confirm: You're not just allowed to change your vote, I would really encourage you to always keep evaluating the players even after you say your vote is final. You just got to get it in before I count the votes, and please make any changes directly on your existing voting post.

[Sedale Threatt]

Really good arguments on Duncan's behalf. I didn't think there was any way I wasn't picking Shaq here, but that's not going to be the case. Can't remember who did it, but pointing out that Diesel's 03 and 02 seasons were pretty comparable was insightful. And I think I had him fifth that year, so...

[shawngoat23]

1. Shaquille O'Neal - Still the most dominant player in the game. I'm not going to dock him for missing regular season games, because he was clearly saving his game for the playoffs. Tim Duncan had the better playoff stats, but Shaq just impacted the game much more, and his team won head-to-head.

2. Tim Duncan - Another awesome year from Tim, won the MVP. I still think Shaq was more dominant even during the regular season when he was on the court.

3. Kevin Garnett - I feel he was at least as good a player as Duncan, just didn't have as much support.

4. Kobe Bryant - Solid post-season from Kobe, culminating in a third ring. I give him the nod over McGrady because he legitimately earned his accolades on defense earlier in his career and because the Lakers had more team success.

5. Tracy McGrady - That being said, I feel T-Mac is the Garnett to Kobe's Shaq. I feel he was at least as good this year (in the regular season), but he didn't have enough help from his team to be able to make it to the big stage.

HM: Dirk Nowitzki - Dirk made first-team All-NBA over Garnett, but I don't believe he was the better player then. He had a pretty solid supporting cast.
HM: Jason Kidd - Jason Kidd truly deserves a lot of credit for making his teammates better, but I feel he got too much credit in the MVP voting (finished #2). Taking a team to the top of the East standings is nice, but it didn't mean as much given how bad the conference was; also, in retrospect, their dramatic turnaround in record could be attributed to him elevating the play of his teammates, but moving Stephon Marbury was also addition by subtraction.

[sp6r=underrated]

Right now my ballot is

1. Webber
2. Peja
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. KG

[drza]

Right now my ballot is

1. Webber
2. Peja
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. KG

I can't lie. I spent about 2 seconds like...Huh??? Then I laughed out loud.

[semi-sentient]

+1

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Right now my ballot is

1. Webber
2. Peja
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. KG

come on man, don't let Silver Bullet ruin this for you, you're one of the people who has really made this project worth reading (I love that you looked up all those team previews for us, really a cool look back).

[Silver Bullet]

Right now my ballot is

1. Webber
2. Peja
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. KG

lol. Come on man, I swear I am not trying to ruin this project, I'm voting as best as I see it - and if you want I'll post a comprehensive case explaining myself tomorrow -

I am not cheating or voting homerishly to pump up players I don't think deserve their ranks.

[Sedale Threatt]

Personally, I'd put Bibby over Peja -- more clutch, better tattoos -- but that's just me.

[sp6r=underrated]

Right now my ballot is

1. Webber
2. Peja
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. KG

come on man, don't let Silver Bullet ruin this for you, you're one of the people who has really made this project worth reading (I love that you looked up all those team previews for us, really a cool look back).

Oh don't worry I'm in it until the finals.

I have to say looking up and reading those articles was a very strange experience for me. I realized how long ago this time period was, I've been able to remember stories I had forgotten about players and teams, and how basically I am always 100% wrong when it comes to my predictions.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Personally, I'd put Bibby over Peja -- more clutch, better tattoos -- but that's just me.

I think all 3 have a case for the top 4 this year really. Everyone knew the Kings were a great team based on past success, they were just conserving energy for the playoffs. They knew that's when they'd really need to turn it on.

[ronnymac2]

I'm sorry, I have to ask. I have to ask this question. I didn't think I'd have to.

Does anybody really think Tim Duncan was a better basketball player than Shaquille O'neal in 2002? Really? I mean.....screw the title. Forget the raw stats. Forget PER. Who is the better basketball player?




Jason Kidd was the MVP of 2002. He was my MVP. He played great. I've seen Kidd play live more than I've seen any other player, and he's truly one of those special players that makes his teammates better. I mean....his best teammate was young Kenyon Martin. Martin is at best a fourth best player on a title team. I know the East sucked ass, but Kidd got them to the finals. That's damn impressive.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if Kidd is going to get into my top 5 this year. But I wanted to say some nice words about his 02 season.

[mysticbb]

Does anybody really think Tim Duncan was a better basketball player than Shaquille O'neal in 2002? Really? I mean.....screw the title. Forget the raw stats. Forget PER. Who is the better basketball player?

Well, depends on how you look at this. If you are a Bryant fan, you might understand when I say Duncan is the better player, because he is/was more skilled than Shaquille O'Neal. There is a reason Duncan is called Mr. Fundamentals. ;)

Anyway, O'Neal's peak was higher than Duncan's, and even though Duncan won the MVP in 2002 I can't really pick him over O'Neal. It is really tough, because Duncan played in all possible games while O'Neal missed again 15 games.

I had to seriously LOL about one specific post, a post in which someone really claimed that a wing player outplayed a 29/17/5 guy in a playoffs serie. A wing player who scored 26 ppg on 48.2 ts%.

@shawngoat23

Watch the playoffs series in 2002 between the Timberwolves and the Mavericks. Nowitzki scored 33/16 with 69 ts% on Garnett. Maybe that helps to determine which one of those two were the better player.


My vote:

1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Jason Kidd
5. Dirk Nowitzki

HM: Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Tracy McGrady

[ElGee]

To me, the real point of this thread is to initiate discussion. So I'll ask some general questions for the board on two players teams from this season:

1. How do people feel about the Nets turnaround and Jason Kidd's season? The Nets didn't come into the season with large expectations.

2. What about the Kings and Webber? Were they just a loaded team that didn't have a true superstar or was C-Webb really one of the elite this year?

Jason Kidd - someone mentioned this, but he found ways to affect the game positively. He averaged a triple double in the ECF. But he's not nearly the offensive player Steve Nash was, and that teams strength was defense, so I hope people don't stretch for that comparison. He's on my radar, but I doubt he'll crack the top 5 unless someone can make a more compelling argument.

Webber's in the conversation for me. At the time I had him around the top 5, and looking back I see him on the cusp again. Missing 28 regular seasons is a pretty big chunk, but this was probably his peak as a player. I mean, he was a Robert Horry 3 away from being at the top of everyone's POY ballot - err, umm, I mean, winning a championship.

[Gongxi]

Does anybody really think Tim Duncan was a better basketball player than Shaquille O'neal in 2002? Really? I mean.....screw the title. Forget the raw stats. Forget PER. Who is the better basketball player?

Well, the thing is throughout the season, we were all used to Shaq being the best player in the NBA for like the previous 4 seasons (when he played), so we were all conditioned to see him as the best player until overwhelming evidence proved otherwise. I forget the real cognitive phenomenon (I've had a couple), but it's basically the idea of the instant replay in the NFL: if there's not totally incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, the ruling on the field (the status quo) stands.

So, yeah, Shaq was seen as the better player throughout the season, I'd bet. But looking at in retrospect, without the recency effect kicking it, you can get a clearer picture. And that has nothing to do with titles (for me, at least) and nothing to do with anything but plain old production on the basketball court. Not my random, untrustworthy "gut" feeling. An actual analytical and objective appreciation of what happened. Shaq played better when he was on the court. I don't think he was on the court enough, as a percentage as compared to Duncan, to overcome that.

What's funny is that if Shaq at least went to the Finals, I might have him over Duncan and that wouldn't have anything to do with team success, it'd just mean Shaq actually played in a higher percentage of his teams' games (assuming he played all the games in the playoffs, of course), and that might've been enough. As it is, 100% of Duncan trumps 85% of Shaq this year, for me.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Does anybody really think Tim Duncan was a better basketball player than Shaquille O'neal in 2002? Really? I mean.....screw the title. Forget the raw stats. Forget PER. Who is the better basketball player?

Well, the thing is throughout the season, we were all used to Shaq being the best player in the NBA for like the previous 4 seasons (when he played), so we were all conditioned to see him as the best player until overwhelming evidence proved otherwise. I forget the real cognitive phenomenon (I've had a couple), but it's basically the idea of the instant replay in the NFL: if there's not totally incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, the ruling on the field (the status quo) stands.

So, yeah, Shaq was seen as the better player throughout the season, I'd bet. But looking at in retrospect, without the recency effect kicking it, you can get a clearer picture. And that has nothing to do with titles (for me, at least) and nothing to do with anything but plain old production on the basketball court. Not my random, untrustworthy "gut" feeling. An actual analytical and objective appreciation of what happened. Shaq played better when he was on the court. I don't think he was on the court enough, as a percentage as compared to Duncan, to overcome that.

What's funny is that if Shaq at least went to the Finals, I might have him over Duncan and that wouldn't have anything to do with team success, it'd just mean Shaq actually played in a higher percentage of his teams' games (assuming he played all the games in the playoffs, of course), and that might've been enough. As it is, 100% of Duncan trumps 85% of Shaq this year, for me.

You sure you're not confusing this with the 2003 thread?