Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST)

[bastillon]

I've just watched game 6 of SAS-LAL. as much as Duncan dominated, it wasn't the reason why they blew them out. I think Tony Parker and Manu are extremely underrated for that 2003 season. they weren't maybe high volume guys but they put pressure on the defense because they create off the dribble and that's VERY valuable. it's not like Duncan played with bunch of guys who were just passing to him on every possession. pick and rolls initiated by these guys were crucial to their success.

Kobe was a very overrated defender though. nowhere near elite.

was impressed by the reactions though. Kobe and Fisher cried, and Popovich took a timeout just to tell his team to finish this thing with class and not celebrate lavishly. really impressed.

[tha_rock220]

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Kobe
4. Shaq
5. McGrady

[Silver Bullet]

I've just watched game 6 of SAS-LAL. as much as Duncan dominated, it wasn't the reason why they blew them out. I think Tony Parker and Manu are extremely underrated for that 2003 season. they weren't maybe high volume guys but they put pressure on the defense because they create off the dribble and that's VERY valuable. it's not like Duncan played with bunch of guys who were just passing to him on every possession. pick and rolls initiated by these guys were crucial to their success.

Kobe was a very overrated defender though. nowhere near elite.

was impressed by the reactions though. Kobe and Fisher cried, and Popovich took a timeout just to tell his team to finish this thing with class and not celebrate lavishly. really impressed.

Watch Game 3 - the night Duncan got his MVP.

[Tesla]

RE: kobe's defense.... its really starting to get annoying, yes Kobe has had the reputation vote for the past 5 years or so (the 03-04 season was really his last consistent elite defensive year), but prior? No... Kobe wasn't a lock down defender every night but he was clearly elite IMO. He was the cream of the crop in that regard, he was athletic, had fundamentals, and on a given particular night could shut you down, but for sure had a great impact on the game defensively for a wing. You can't go back and watch one game and say "ohh kobe was clearly overrated defender"...especially in a game where the Lakers get eliminated and stomped on... i could go watch Shaq make 9 out of 11 FTs in a playoff game and say he was clearly an underrated FT shooter, he made them when they counted!.

[Optimism Prime]

1 Duncan
2 Garnett
3 McGrady
4 Kobe
5 Shaq

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

[Sedale Threatt]

I'm a Laker fan, and I have an issue with it.

Okay, explain the issue ?

OK, two things stick out to me:

1. Kobe -- I just don't see how he had a better year than Duncan or Garnett. You have arguably the two best defensive players in the league for starters. Then you have the impressive individual numbers -- at least comparable to what Kobe did, if not better. Then Duncan ramps it up with an epic, all-time great postseason.

2. Shaq -- Dominant when healthy and dialed in, but that's the problem. How often was that the case? This team got into the habit, following Shaq's lead, of taking the regular season less and less seriously. This is the year it finally bit them in the ass.

I'm risking painting myself into a corner here, as numerically Shaq's production is almost identical, and in some areas better, than what he did in 02. I don't want to use the championship to bump him from fifth to first, but it just felt different.

I consider myself a massive Shaq fan, more so than Kobe, but this was the year his ambivalence towards the regular season was almost palpable. That team was starting to fall apart a little bit to begin with, but Shaq's lack of effort accelerated the whole process.

Plus, the fact that neither of them could check their egos at the door and work together better. That's got to be at least some sort of markdown.

[Sedale Threatt]

Kobe and Fisher cried, and Popovich took a timeout just to tell his team to finish this thing with class and not celebrate lavishly. really impressed.

Because it's in the nature of guys like Tim Duncan, David Robinson and Manu Ginobili to grab their cocks and make a fool of themselves in such an instance, right?

Hell, Duncan barely cracks a smile when they win championships.

[sp6r=underrated]

Kobe and Fisher cried, and Popovich took a timeout just to tell his team to finish this thing with class and not celebrate lavishly. really impressed.

Because it's in the nature of guys like Tim Duncan, David Robinson and Manu Ginobili to grab their cocks and make a fool of themselves in such an instance, right?

Hell, Duncan barely cracks a smile when they win championships.

David Robinson is an **** who won't even sign autographs for future HOF basketball players. Yes it is his nature.

[mopper8]

2. Shaq -- Dominant when healthy and dialed in, but that's the problem. How often was that the case? This team got into the habit, following Shaq's lead, of taking the regular season less and less seriously. This is the year it finally bit them in the ass. [...]

I consider myself a massive Shaq fan, more so than Kobe, but this was the year his ambivalence towards the regular season was almost palpable. That team was starting to fall apart a little bit to begin with, but Shaq's lack of effort accelerated the whole process.

Plus, the fact that neither of them could check their egos at the door and work together better. That's got to be at least some sort of markdown.

It's hard to quantify how pernicious "attitude" and "culture" can be, especially surrounding Shaq from this year on for the next 5 or so...but it always seemed huge to me starting with this season.

[Silver Bullet]

Last call.

Doc, can we get an extension man, maybe till the evening - I wanna rethink my vote, but can't right away.

[semi-sentient]

RE: kobe's defense.... its really starting to get annoying, yes Kobe has had the reputation vote for the past 5 years or so (the 03-04 season was really his last consistent elite defensive year), but prior? No... Kobe wasn't a lock down defender every night but he was clearly elite IMO.

Thank you, and yes, it's annoying as hell.

It seems like every year people go further back in time to use the "reputation" argument against him. It's getting old.

I can't wait for people to mention Iverson's Game 1 in the 2001 Finals so I can trash that argument. Again.

[semi-sentient]

Kobe and Fisher cried, and Popovich took a timeout just to tell his team to finish this thing with class and not celebrate lavishly. really impressed.

Because it's in the nature of guys like Tim Duncan, David Robinson and Manu Ginobili to grab their cocks and make a fool of themselves in such an instance, right?

Hell, Duncan barely cracks a smile when they win championships.

Jesus... I just shot coffee out of my nose reading that... lol. Just picturing those guys doing anything like that is a big LOL.

Can you imagine how hilarious it would have been if Duncan started doing the "balls dance" down the court after hitting that big shot in 04 (just before Fisher's)?

[sp6r=underrated]

RE: kobe's defense.... its really starting to get annoying, yes Kobe has had the reputation vote for the past 5 years or so (the 03-04 season was really his last consistent elite defensive year), but prior? No... Kobe wasn't a lock down defender every night but he was clearly elite IMO.

Thank you, and yes, it's annoying as hell.

It seems like every year people go further back in time to use the "reputation" argument against him. It's getting old.

I can't wait for people to mention Iverson's Game 1 in the 2001 Finals so I can trash that argument. Again.

I'd compare Kobe's defense to the TD center power forward debate. People are annoyed (justifiably) that TD is racking up awards as a forward because Duncan hasn't really player PF in a few years. So there is a movement to say he never played the 4 spot. People are annoyed (justifiably) that Kobe racks up defensive awards he hasn't deserved, so there is a group of people saying he was never a good defender. I think both are cases of overreaction.

[bastillon]

Kobe and Fisher cried, and Popovich took a timeout just to tell his team to finish this thing with class and not celebrate lavishly. really impressed.

Because it's in the nature of guys like Tim Duncan, David Robinson and Manu Ginobili to grab their cocks and make a fool of themselves in such an instance, right?

Hell, Duncan barely cracks a smile when they win championships.

Jesus... I just shot coffee out of my nose reading that... lol. Just picturing those guys doing anything like that is a big LOL.

Can you imagine how hilarious it would have been if Duncan started doing the "balls dance" down the court after hitting that big shot in 04 (just before Fisher's)?

haha

but I meant that Pop just acted very professionally and classy. you know, he was coming off of 8-1 the previous two years and he didn't seem overjoyed, just stayed calm, told his guys to chill and I liked that. I didn't mean to knock Spurs players for being idiot hotheads. that'd make me an idiot and a pretty big one at that

[Sedale Threatt]

Jesus... I just shot coffee out of my nose reading that... lol. Just picturing those guys doing anything like that is a big LOL.

Can you imagine how hilarious it would have been if Duncan started doing the "balls dance" down the court after hitting that big shot in 04 (just before Fisher's)?

Instead, we got this. The arena's going nuts, Tim's teammates are climbing all over him.

And...



OK, so his lack of emotion is hugely overrated.

But come on -- like Duncan and Robinson need to be told not to rub it anyone's face.

[sp6r=underrated]

Jesus... I just shot coffee out of my nose reading that... lol. Just picturing those guys doing anything like that is a big LOL.

Can you imagine how hilarious it would have been if Duncan started doing the "balls dance" down the court after hitting that big shot in 04 (just before Fisher's)?

Instead, we got this. The arena's going nuts, Tim's teammates are climbing all over him.

And...



OK, so his lack of emotion is hugely overrated.

But come on -- like Duncan and Robinson need to be told not to rub it anyone's face.

I remember watching him at Wake when they would play Duke the crowd would chant Spock

[bastillon]

2. Shaq -- Dominant when healthy and dialed in, but that's the problem. How often was that the case? This team got into the habit, following Shaq's lead, of taking the regular season less and less seriously. This is the year it finally bit them in the ass. [...]

I consider myself a massive Shaq fan, more so than Kobe, but this was the year his ambivalence towards the regular season was almost palpable. That team was starting to fall apart a little bit to begin with, but Shaq's lack of effort accelerated the whole process.

Plus, the fact that neither of them could check their egos at the door and work together better. That's got to be at least some sort of markdown.

It's hard to quantify how pernicious "attitude" and "culture" can be, especially surrounding Shaq from this year on for the next 5 or so...but it always seemed huge to me starting with this season.

interesting articles from that year:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... id=1647603

EL SEGUNDO, Calif. -- The Los Angeles Lakers will open the season Tuesday night at home with all four of their future Hall of Famers starting against the Dallas Mavericks ... but nothing even close to total harmony.

That's because Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant are feuding anew, out in the open, after a long thaw in their historically icy relationship.

O'Neal and Bryant seemed to be interacting comfortably Sunday on the practice floor, sharing the ball freely during an afternoon workout. Then they traded nasty verbal jabs after the session -- arguably their harshest comments since L.A.'s second championship season -- all stemming from O'Neal's suggestion Friday night in Las Vegas that Bryant "should probably look to be more of a passer until he gets his legs strong."

Bryant, recovering from offseason knee and shoulder surgeries, didn't welcome the suggestion, saying: "I definitely don't need advice on how to play my game."

Not even advice from O'Neal?

"Definitely not," Bryant continued. "I know how to play my guard spot. He can worry about the low post, and I'll worry about the [perimeter]."

When apprised of Bryant's reaction, O'Neal lashed out harder.

"As we start this new season, we want [expletive] done right," Shaq said. "If you don't like it, then you can opt out next year. As long as it's my team, then I'll voice my opinion. If you don't like it, then opt out."

That was a reference to Bryant's plan to exercise an option in his contract at season's end and test the free-agent market next summer, a stance Bryant has said he won't change in the wake of his felony sexual assault charge in Colorado.

Asked to clarify his "my team" remark, O'Neal added: "Everybody knows that. You [media] guys may give it to [Bryant] like you've given him everything else his whole lifetime, but this is the Diesel's ship. So ... if you ain't right [physically], don't be trying to go out there and get right on our expense. Use the people out there, then when you get right you [can] do what you do."

Not since the middle of the 2001-02 season -- the second of L.A.'s three consecutive championships -- have O'Neal and Bryant sparred in the press like this. Their relationship seemed to blossom into friendship during the third championship and also appeared to survive last season's 11-19 start and subsequent crash out of the playoffs with a second-round loss to San Antonio.

Throughout this first month back to work, however, there have been thinly veiled hints from O'Neal that problems have resurfaced, starting from the veterans' first day of training camp in Hawaii. Bryant did not fly on the Lakers' team charter and reported to camp a day late. O'Neal said at the time that "the full team is here," leading some to speculate that he preferred to play this season without the distractions attached to Bryant's court case.

Days later, explaining why he was sitting out an exhibition game with a sore left heel, O'Neal said: "I want to be right [in the regular season] for Derek, Karl and Gary.'' He was referring to Derek Fisher and new teammates Karl Malone and Gary Payton -- and O'Neal ommitted Bryant's name from the conversation more than once.

Malone and Payton, by contrast, have publicly supported Bryant as strongly as anyone in Lakers circles. But even Payton has urged Bryant to ease his way back into the team flow, after Bryant fatigued quickly and shot poorly in the second half of the Lakers' final two exhibition games.

Eyebrows were also raised when Bryant, for Thursday's exhibition in Anaheim against the Clippers, rode his motorcycle to and from the game instead of riding on the team bus.

Yet O'Neal, when pressed, insisted that the Lakers can play through any problems he's having with Bryant.

"I don't really worry about that," O'Neal said when asked about the state of the relationship. "I'm here to do a job. ... If he's open, I'm going to give it to him. If I'm open, I expect him to give it to me. I don't care about [expletive] else he does, and I know he don't care [expletive] else I do."

What's clear is that Lakers coach Phil Jackson, who spoke to reporters before his stars started volleying barbs, has his first real challenge of the season, less than 48 hours before the season opener. And it's right in his own locker room, not in a Colorado courtroom.

Asked about how he plans to play against the Mavericks on Tuesday night, Bryant said: "No change in my game whatsoever."

Said O'Neal: "Just ask Karl and Gary why they came here. One person, not two. One. Period. ... I'm not telling [Bryant] how to play his position. I'm telling him how to play team ball."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1648431

The transcript of Kobe Bryant's interview with ESPN's Jim Gray:

GRAY: What was your reaction to Shaq saying the Lakers are his team, and everybody knows it?

BRYANT: It doesn't matter whose team it is. Nobody cares. I don't, Karl [Malone] doesn't, Gary [Payton] doesn't, and our teammates and the fans don't either. There's more to life than whose team this is. But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court. It also means no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy.

GRAY: Do you consider Shaq to be a leader?

BRYANT: Leaders don't beg for a contract extension and negotiate some 30 million [dollars] plus per year deal in the media when we have two future Hall of Famers playing here pretty much for free. A leader would not demand the ball every time down the floor when you have the three of us [Malone, Payton, Bryant] playing beside you, not to mention the teammates you have gone to war with for years -- and, by the way, then threaten not to play defense and rebound if you don't get the ball every time down the floor.

GRAY: Shaq says that you have not been a team player. Is he right?

BRYANT: That's ridiculous. I have been successfully sacrificing my game for years for Shaq. That's what Phil [Jackson] wanted me to do, so I did it. Last year Phil told me Shaq was not in physical condition to carry the trust of our offense, so he asked me to do it. But then he saw Shaq was getting upset that the team wasn't running through him, so Phil asked me to pull back and I did. This year is no different; my role is whatever Phil wants it to be. Period.

GRAY: Through out the preseason, your leg and conditioning has been lagging. Are you in the proper shape to start the season?

BRYANT: My knee is not strong enough to play yet. I know it. When it is I will play.

GRAY: Does that mean you will miss the opener [Tuesday] night and other games?

BRYANT: I probably won't play tomorrow night or until I'm ready. But I don't need Shaq's advice on how to play hurt. I've played with IVs before, during and after games. I've played with a broken hand, a sprained ankle, a torn shoulder, a fractured tooth, a severed lip, and a knee the size of a softball. I don't miss 15 games because of a toe injury that everybody knows wasn't that serious in the first place.

GRAY: Kobe, Shaq said if you didn't like what he had to say you can opt out and leave next season. Will you leave the Lakers?

BRYANT: I won't make that decision until the end of the season. I told Shaq last year that I was planning on opting out. He knew before anyone. I told him out of respect for what we have been through together. I thought he should be the first to know. The fact that he acts like this is such a big shock is a mystery to me. If leaving the Lakers at the end of the season is what I decide, a major reason for that will be Shaq's childlike selfishness and jealousy.

GRAY: Do you feel Shaq has been supportive in regards to your legal situation?

BRYANT: He is not my quote unquote "big brother." A big brother would have called to lend his support this summer. I heard absolutely nothing from him. I spoke to Devean [George], Rick [Fox], Mitch [Kupchak], Phil, and our owner Jerry Buss. And Shaq's own Uncle Jerome called and left three messages. Other teammates like Derek [Fisher], Mark [Madsen], and [Stanislav Medvedenko] left messages as well. Opponents called like [Chris] Webber, [Mike] Bibby, and many others. So did a lot of coaches. Michael Jordan, who didn't have my home phone, tracked it down to lend his support. So did Tiger Woods. But yet from my so-called big brother, I heard nothing.

GRAY: Why not resolve this behind closed doors? Why is this so public?

BRYANT: I asked Phil on Sunday [yesterday] to say something to calm this situation down before it boiled over. But he backed away, so now here we are. I have been a bigger person every time something happened with Shaq, and I don't expect this to be any different. But somebody in this organization had to speak up, because his unprofessionalism hurt us last year, and I don't want it to hurt us this year.

[sp6r=underrated]

To me the all time great contrast in personalities, is that famous shot of rookie Magic hugging Kareem after going crazy after the RS winner. Kareem doesn't even look alive and apparently whispered to him "81 more to go kid."

[ronnymac2]

I value the abilities more with the stats as more of an indicator/tie-breaker type of thing, and since I think they are equals in ability, I have a hard time with the whole "It's easily T-Mac" thing.

Well, "easily" might be a bit exaggerated, but T-Mac had more range, better ball handling and a better passing game that season. It was also the case that McGrady had the better ability to draw fouls. Not quite sure, but they might be close in their abilities (especially considering that this was Bryant's somewhat Bryant's best 3pt shooting year), but overall I still see McGrady ahead of Bryant even in terms of abilities.

Fair enough.

Even I miss T-mac. Aside from theLakers, he was probably my favorite player back then.