Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST)

[Sedale Threatt]

Both those articles are from the eve of the 03-04 season.

Nonetheless, it's pretty obvious that things had been festering for quite some time.

[semi-sentient]

bastillon - Good articles. Just wanted to point out that those were written just prior to the 2003-04 season and not 2002-03.

This just reminds me of why I was looking forward to Shaq leaving towards the end of his tenure and why keeping Kobe was the right choice (outside of the obvious age issue). His attitude straight up sucked. Then he goes to the Heat and gets into great shape and plays well with others and has no problem whatsoever deferring to Wade... what a f'ing ass. I realize that he must have been super pissed at Kobe for "snitching", but that attitude was detrimental to the team as a whole and just added fuel to the fire. All that crap should have stayed private, instead he turned it into a distraction and the result was that a young and immature Kobe retaliated by playing like an idiot in the Finals. That was a monumental failure of leadership from a guy claiming to be the captain of the ship.

[Doctor MJ]

Man, brings back old memories. I was so frustrated with Shaq. Kobe too to some degree but mainly Shaq. And the stuff there doesn't even get into Shaq whining about getting his extension wanting his super-max money after Malone and Payton just agree to join the team for peanuts. The Lakers that year should have had a positive buzz/chemistry like the '08 Celtics, and it was nothing like that. Kobe could have been better, Payton really lost a lot of my respect that year, but Shaq was just incredibly bad.

Will say, the one guy who impressed me was Malone. Here's a guy who is the man his whole career, then takes a secondary role without complaint even surrounded by incredible immaturity - and if he stays healthy, the probably win the title.

[sp6r=underrated]

bastillon - Good articles. Just wanted to point out that those were written just prior to the 2003-04 season and not 2002-03.

This just reminds me of why I was looking forward to Shaq leaving towards the end of his tenure and why keeping Kobe was the right choice (outside of the obvious age issue). His attitude straight up sucked. Then he goes to the Heat and gets into great shape and plays well with others and has no problem whatsoever deferring to Wade... what a f'ing ass. I realize that he must have been super pissed at Kobe for "snitching", but that attitude was detrimental to the team as a whole and just added fuel to the fire. All that crap should have stayed private, instead he turned it into a distraction and the result was that a young and immature Kobe retaliated by playing like an idiot in the Finals. That was a monumental failure of leadership from a guy claiming to be the captain of the ship.

This is all true. I have a lot of respect for guys like Kareem or Oscar or Robinson who are able defer to the younger player. A lot of all time greats just refuse to make that transition.

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

Doc, can we get an extension man, maybe till the evening - I wanna rethink my vote, but can't right away.

Okay, extension till the evening.

[mopper8]

bastillon - Good articles. Just wanted to point out that those were written just prior to the 2003-04 season and not 2002-03.

This just reminds me of why I was looking forward to Shaq leaving towards the end of his tenure and why keeping Kobe was the right choice (outside of the obvious age issue). His attitude straight up sucked. Then he goes to the Heat and gets into great shape and plays well with others and has no problem whatsoever deferring to Wade... what a f'ing ass. I realize that he must have been super pissed at Kobe for "snitching", but that attitude was detrimental to the team as a whole and just added fuel to the fire. All that crap should have stayed private, instead he turned it into a distraction and the result was that a young and immature Kobe retaliated by playing like an idiot in the Finals. That was a monumental failure of leadership from a guy claiming to be the captain of the ship.

Yeah but that was always tenuous at best and barely lasted. He ran SVG out the door, pretty sure he hated on Eddie Jones before he got traded, supposedly was derisively and sarcastically call Wade the "boy wonder" and other such things when Wade wasn't around, starting I think after the title season...complained openly in the media about not getting enough touches all through 04-05 and 05-06, came into camp out of shape (mildly) in 05-06 and (very badly) in 06-07...etc etc.

Most everyone wanted him gone from Miami as well. He couldn't leave soon enough. I could go on (the home opener in 06-07 was just embarrassing) but I think that's more than enough sidetracking

[Sedale Threatt]

I love this quote:

"Everybody knows that. You [media] guys may give it to [Bryant] like you've given him everything else his whole lifetime, but this is the Diesel's ship. So ... if you ain't right [physically], don't be trying to go out there and get right on our expense. Use the people out there, then when you get right you [can] do what you do."

[bastillon]

this one's my favourite:

But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court. It also means no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy.

[sp6r=underrated]

Wow, these Shaq stories are brutal.

[Silver Bullet]

Okay, explain the issue ?

OK, two things stick out to me:

1. Kobe -- I just don't see how he had a better year than Duncan or Garnett. You have arguably the two best defensive players in the league for starters. Then you have the impressive individual numbers -- at least comparable to what Kobe did, if not better. Then Duncan ramps it up with an epic, all-time great postseason.

2. Shaq -- Dominant when healthy and dialed in, but that's the problem. How often was that the case? This team got into the habit, following Shaq's lead, of taking the regular season less and less seriously. This is the year it finally bit them in the ass.

I'm risking painting myself into a corner here, as numerically Shaq's production is almost identical, and in some areas better, than what he did in 02. I don't want to use the championship to bump him from fifth to first, but it just felt different.

I consider myself a massive Shaq fan, more so than Kobe, but this was the year his ambivalence towards the regular season was almost palpable. That team was starting to fall apart a little bit to begin with, but Shaq's lack of effort accelerated the whole process.

Plus, the fact that neither of them could check their egos at the door and work together better. That's got to be at least some sort of markdown.

Kobe's stats 30-7-6 on 45% and 38% from 3.
Duncan - 23-13-4 on 51% with 3 bpg
KG - 23-13.5-6 on 50% with with 1.6 bpg

PER 26.2 vs 26.9 vs 26.4 -

I don't see how Duncan and KG have certifiably superior stats -

Shaq's stats -
26-11-3 on 57.4% with 2.3 bpg -

PER 29.5

And these stats ignore that while KG and Duncan more or less played one on one - Shaq played every single game against at least 2 defenders -

The Lakers won less games and did not go as far in the playoffs, because Jerry Buss had by now decimated the roster with cast offs -
The average win shares for the Lakers supporting cast in 99-00 were 4.08 - in 02-03 the corresponding number was 2.62.
The average combined win shares for Shaq and Kobe in 99-00 were 14.6 - in 02-03 the corresponding number was 14.05.

I can justify putting either of them at 1 - over both Duncan and Mcgrady.... however, I can't justify a 51 win team having the two best players in the league (even though that's how I remember it, and even though it doesn't make any sense to me, to put Duncan over Shaq -- because there was a visible and wide gap between these two in their primes)

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Shaq
4. T-Mac
5. KG

[Gongxi]

Well, obviously you've put some more thought into this, so how can you justify putting Bryant over McGrady when every metric points to McGrady not only producing more, but more efficiently?

[semi-sentient]

Don't you think ranking McGrady above Duncan requires a bit more justification?

There are quite a few here (even non-Laker/Kobe fans) that have Kobe ahead of McGrady, but only 1 person has Duncan lower than #1.

[Sedale Threatt]

Kobe's stats 30-7-6 on 45% and 38% from 3.
Duncan - 23-13-4 on 51% with 3 bpg
KG - 23-13.5-6 on 50% with with 1.6 bpg

PER 26.2 vs 26.9 vs 26.4 -

I don't see how Duncan and KG have certifiably superior stats

I didn't say certifiably superior. I said at least comparable, if not better. When you factor in that Kobe dropped in the postseason, while Duncan improved and KG basically stayed the same, I don't think that's an outrageous statement.

Shaq's stats -
26-11-3 on 57.4% with 2.3 bpg -

PER 29.5

And these stats ignore that while KG and Duncan more or less played one on one - Shaq played every single game against at least 2 defenders

No question Shaq had wonderful stats/production -- but that's not my real issue here. It's the ambivalence towards fitness, consistent effort and regular-season competition.

The Lakers won less games and did not go as far in the playoffs, because Jerry Buss had by now decimated the roster with cast offs -
The average win shares for the Lakers supporting cast in 99-00 were 4.08 - in 02-03 the corresponding number was 2.62.
The average combined win shares for Shaq and Kobe in 99-00 were 14.6 - in 02-03 the corresponding number was 14.05.

I don't know if it was as much an issue of "decimation" as it was guys aging, or having off years, or having difficulty adding players with no cap space and/or decent draft picks to work with.

Fish was still there, Horry was still there. Granted, Horry looked and played washed up at that point, but he went on to play a pretty essential role with the Spurs in 05. Fox was on his last legs; that hurt, and had nothing to do with Buss.

Again, I count myself as a huge Shaq fan. But that year was really, really hard to stomach. I'd been more than irritated the previous couple years about his lack of focus and effort, but it was hard to complain considering they were winning championships.

This year, it bit them in the ass, and I can't help but hold that against him, and wonder what the outcome would have been our best player had more desire. Beat a good but hardly overpowering Spurs team and that's four straight titles.

And while we're on the subject, I certainly give Kobe a huge portion of blame, too. I don't want to dig that whole mess up again -- I've worn out keyboards posting about it over the years -- but he was no angel, by any means.

So yes, when you factor all that together, I have an issue with your previous vote. Which is moot anyway, considering you changed your mind. Not much, but enough.

[NO-KG-AI]

"Duncan and KG played more or less one on one"

Lol yea.

[Silver Bullet]

"Duncan and KG played more or less one on one"

Lol yea.

Compared to Shaq yes , the Blazers didn't double either, the Kings didn't, the Jazz didn't, the Spurs and Wolves didn't double each other, don't think Pacers, Heat, Clippers did either - whereas the only team that played Shaq straight up were the Spurs --

[Silver Bullet]

Well, obviously you've put some more thought into this, so how can you justify putting Bryant over McGrady when every metric points to McGrady not only producing more, but more efficiently?

plays in the East - this is probably the last year you'll see me put anyone from the East in the top 5 this decade.

[ElGee]

Well, obviously you've put some more thought into this, so how can you justify putting Bryant over McGrady when every metric points to McGrady not only producing more, but more efficiently?

plays in the East - this is probably the last year you'll see me put anyone from the East in the top 5 this decade.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but just so everyone knows, 3 of the top 5 defenses were in the East that year, 5 of the top 8, and 7 of the top 11.

McGrady
49 G v East: 33.1 ppg 6.5 rpg 6.1 apg .459 FG%
26 G v West: 30.3 ppg 5.9 rpg 4.4 apg .454 FG%

Bryant
30 G v East: 27.4 ppg 6.8 rpg 5.8 apg .434 FG%
52 G v West: 31.5 ppg 6.9 rpg 5.9 apg .460 FG%

[Silver Bullet]

Well, obviously you've put some more thought into this, so how can you justify putting Bryant over McGrady when every metric points to McGrady not only producing more, but more efficiently?

plays in the East - this is probably the last year you'll see me put anyone from the East in the top 5 this decade.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but just so everyone knows, 3 of the top 5 defenses were in the East that year, 5 of the top 8, and 7 of the top 11.

and 7 of the bottom 10 by defensive rating -

and only 5 of the top 13 by opp FG% which is my preferred metric -

and I would guess those numbers are skewed by intra-conference play -
eg. The Nets gave up 88ppg in the East and 92ppg in the West, gave up 42.2FG% in the East, 43.5% in the West.

regardless that is not the only reason - but that's part of it. I don't think Kobe over T-Mac should be a controversial issue, even though I admit I haven't delved deeply into it.

[ElGee]

^^^ I think it's pretty close, but that's not the point. I just don't see East vs. West as having anything to do with it. The conference determines 60% of the schedule, and T-Mac and Kobe don't have conference splits that support that idea.

[semi-sentient]

Yeah, I don't know if I'd place much weight on East vs. West either (as far as player production), outside of the fact that Orlando's record is not really impressive when weighing conference strength. I kind of think that Kobe and McGrady have to be ranked next to each other, and who is above who seems a matter of preference since they are really close. I think they should either be 2/3, or 3/4 depending on how highly one thinks of KG.