Retro Player of the Year Project

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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#261 » by drza » Tue May 11, 2010 8:40 pm

bastillon wrote:so drza you're punishing Nash for relatively poor boxscore statistics ?


From my perspective I'm not "punishing" Nash. I just don't think he's as good as those other players. Like I said about KG in another thread, with these years that I remember well observation is my first criterion. It's only been in the last few years that I started really getting into advanced stats, so it wasn't Nash's box score stats that made me think he wasn't as good as those players. Then later, once I did start to have some more quantitative tools to re-examine things with, I didn't see anything compelling to change my mind. You guys did a better job of advocating for Nash than I expected, because honestly I felt like he was better in later years when I didn't vote for him than he was in '05 but you did a good job of selling me on him in that year and getting him into my top-5.

But I'm not punishing Nash. I like him as a player. In fact, I generally pull for his teams and will be again in this upcoming series. And he's a great player, always has been. I just don't think he's ever been the best-of-the-best.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#262 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue May 11, 2010 8:42 pm

Gongxi wrote:Was "Doctor MJ" in quotes like that anyway? Were you implying that isn't his real name? If you just wanted to imply he wasn't a real doctor, you should've just put quotes around the Doctor part.


:rofl:
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#263 » by bastillon » Tue May 11, 2010 11:25 pm

drza wrote:
bastillon wrote:so drza you're punishing Nash for relatively poor boxscore statistics ?


From my perspective I'm not "punishing" Nash. I just don't think he's as good as those other players. Like I said about KG in another thread, with these years that I remember well observation is my first criterion. It's only been in the last few years that I started really getting into advanced stats, so it wasn't Nash's box score stats that made me think he wasn't as good as those players. Then later, once I did start to have some more quantitative tools to re-examine things with, I didn't see anything compelling to change my mind. You guys did a better job of advocating for Nash than I expected, because honestly I felt like he was better in later years when I didn't vote for him than he was in '05 but you did a good job of selling me on him in that year and getting him into my top-5.

But I'm not punishing Nash. I like him as a player. In fact, I generally pull for his teams and will be again in this upcoming series. And he's a great player, always has been. I just don't think he's ever been the best-of-the-best.


but I'm asking you why do you feel Nash isn't as good as those players ? because of the defense ? boxscore stats ? inability to adapt ? playing in small ball ? D'Antoni system ? it's not like I think you're being ridiculous or anything. Wade, Dirk, Kobe, KG and TD had ridiculous prime and it's no shame to be beaten by these guys. I'm just wondering why in particular Nash isn't as valuable as those guys.

I guess you can leave KG and TD as I already know your justification (2-way impact), but what it is particularly that made you vote for Dirk, LeBron or Kobe and not for Nash ? it's okay if you don't think he was as good as those players, but when oters are putting him at ~3rd on average in his MVP years and he barely makes one TOP5 on your ballot it's pretty clear that you value his game less than the consensus. I'm wondering why.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#264 » by Doctor MJ » Wed May 12, 2010 2:47 am

Wow, POY for '09-10 may be very, very interesting.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#265 » by Silver Bullet » Wed May 12, 2010 2:52 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Wow, POY for '09-10 may be very, very interesting.


nobody has a case other than Lebron - If Kobe averages 40-10-10 in the Finals while Gasol and Bynum both got injured - then maybe....

actually never mind.

There is no case for anyone other than Lebron.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#266 » by semi-sentient » Wed May 12, 2010 3:55 am

Agreed. LeBron was too good in the regular season, at least on offense. I seem to recall Cavs fans regularly bashing his lack of interest on defense, so perhaps that'll factor in.

For '09-10, including what's transpired so far, I have it as:

1) LeBron
2) Wade
3) Kobe
4) Howard
5) Nash

If anything, Wade might be bumped up because he was phenomenal against the Celtics and came on incredibly strong in the 2nd half of the season, so how LeBron performs to close out this series will be important. Another poor performance and I think I might just give Wade the nod. I had Durant ahead of Kobe/Howard prior to that atrocious first round series, so the playoffs have already had an impact. I don't know if I can move Kobe any higher though. He's going to have to have a really, really good finish for me to consider it, and even then I'd have to ignore how he played in Jan/Feb.

Edit: Damn, I completely overlooked Nash. Sorry, but I have to knock Durant off the list. Of all the offensive players, he's by far the worst play-maker, so scoring efficiently by itself isn't going to turn any heads. Defensively, he doesn't compare to the other elite wings on the list either.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#267 » by JordansBulls » Wed May 12, 2010 4:03 am

It depends on what happens with Howard actually. If the Cavs are eliminated, then the Magic should win it. And if the Magic win it all and Howard gets finals mvp, I don't see how you can't say he wasn't the best.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#268 » by Silver Bullet » Wed May 12, 2010 4:04 am

JordansBulls wrote:It depends on what happens with Howard actually. If the Cavs are eliminated, then the Magic should win it. And if the Magic win it all and Howard gets finals mvp, I don't see how you can't say he wasn't the best.


what happens if Kobe gets the Finals MVP ?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#269 » by JordansBulls » Wed May 12, 2010 4:07 am

Silver Bullet wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:It depends on what happens with Howard actually. If the Cavs are eliminated, then the Magic should win it. And if the Magic win it all and Howard gets finals mvp, I don't see how you can't say he wasn't the best.


what happens if Kobe gets the Finals MVP ?


It depends on if he leads his team in WS or PER. If Gasol still leads in both, then he isn't going to be leapfrogged.

I just can't justify saying someone is the best in the league if they weren't the best statistically on their on team.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#270 » by semi-sentient » Wed May 12, 2010 4:10 am

JordansBulls wrote:It depends on what happens with Howard actually. If the Cavs are eliminated, then the Magic should win it. And if the Magic win it all and Howard gets finals mvp, I don't see how you can't say he wasn't the best.


Kobe didn't come anywhere close to winning POY in '08-09, despite having an incredible post-season. I voted for LeBron that year, FYI.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#271 » by JordansBulls » Wed May 12, 2010 4:12 am

semi-sentient wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:It depends on what happens with Howard actually. If the Cavs are eliminated, then the Magic should win it. And if the Magic win it all and Howard gets finals mvp, I don't see how you can't say he wasn't the best.


Kobe didn't come anywhere close to winning POY in '08-09, despite having an incredible post-season. I voted for LeBron that year, FYI.


I voted for Kobe in 2008-2009. He led the team in both WS and PER in the playoffs.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#272 » by semi-sentient » Wed May 12, 2010 4:13 am

JordansBulls wrote:It depends on if he leads his team in WS or PER. If Gasol still leads in both, then he isn't going to be leapfrogged.

I just can't justify saying someone is the best in the league if they weren't the best statistically on their on team.


You're aware that Nelson leads the Magic in both categories so far and has a sizable lead on Howard?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#273 » by Silver Bullet » Wed May 12, 2010 4:13 am

Woah, the General Board is going nuts over tonight's game -

Was it that bad ? Lebron got booed ?

I had work to do - only watched the game in bits -
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#274 » by semi-sentient » Wed May 12, 2010 4:15 am

Silver Bullet wrote:Woah, the General Board is going nuts over tonight's game -

Was it that bad ? Lebron got booed ?

I had work to do - only watched the game in bits -


He looked... disinterested. It was pretty bad.

Had a buddy of mine here for the game (big Cleveland fan -- and actually from Ohio) and he was railing on LeBron for his past two games.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#275 » by Gongxi » Wed May 12, 2010 4:48 am

Unless you think the player of the year thus far has been close, there's nothing that should happen over the last 12 or so games of the season that should change what's happened in the previous 90 or so. Come on.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#276 » by Doctor MJ » Wed May 12, 2010 4:57 am

Silver Bullet wrote:Woah, the General Board is going nuts over tonight's game -

Was it that bad ? Lebron got booed ?

I had work to do - only watched the game in bits -


Really, really bad. Last year, while his team eventually lost, LeBron always was incredible, so imho it was ridiculous to have anyone leapfrog him. If Cleveland ends up losing this series with another game like this from LeBron, I don't actually know what I'll end up concluding.

This combined with Durant being a bit of a disappointment in the post-season, and Howard so far not being his team's playoff MVP provides fodder for much discussion.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#277 » by ronnymac2 » Wed May 12, 2010 5:02 am

That's the worst game I have ever seen Lebron James play. It's exactly what I don't want to see from a player of his caliber. That's the first time I've ever said that about him.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#278 » by sp6r=underrated » Wed May 12, 2010 5:18 am

All I know is there is a specific thread I plan on bumping if the Cavs lose, and it has nothing to do with Lebron.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#279 » by Tim_Hardawayy » Wed May 12, 2010 5:19 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:All I know is there is a specific thread I plan on bumping if the Cavs lose, and it has nothing to do with Lebron.

Does it have to do with eyebrows?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#280 » by sp6r=underrated » Wed May 12, 2010 5:20 am

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:All I know is there is a specific thread I plan on bumping if the Cavs lose, and it has nothing to do with Lebron.

Does it have to do with eyebrows?


No.

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