Retro Player of the Year Project

[sp6r=underrated]

Yes, in 10 thread I'm still planning on voting for Lebron. His PS has still been very good and none of the other possible POY candidates has done anything significant so far.

[Baller 24]

That game was disgusting, he looked like he was bothered by his elbow, the Celtics defense, or he just completely lost confidence out there. He got a couple of open looks, but they were all pretty terrible, for his sake, I hope he can bounce back in Boston the next game, and cap it off in Game 7.

Hypothetical question here, let's say he goes out losing terribly in Game 6, Howard and the Magic go 16-1 to cap off the playoffs and win the tittle, would THAT even be enough for say a sway of votes in his direction for POY in '10? I was asking myself that earlier, it'd be hard to decide.

[Gongxi]

See, I think it's clearly no, but I know a lot of people would simply look at Orlando's record, their Drtg, and their playoff success and immediately place Howard at 1 and need irrefutable evidence to knock him down. To me, that's a poor way of looking at the situation, but it's not like I can objectively say it's any more right or wrong than my own way.

For me, Howard is probably in the 5 spot (behind LeBron, Wade, Durant, and Kobe) and the last 8-14 games isn't going to outweigh the whole previous 80-90% of the season unless something wild happens.

[drza]

but I'm asking you why do you feel Nash isn't as good as those players ? because of the defense ? boxscore stats ? inability to adapt ? playing in small ball ? D'Antoni system ? it's not like I think you're being ridiculous or anything. Wade, Dirk, Kobe, KG and TD had ridiculous prime and it's no shame to be beaten by these guys. I'm just wondering why in particular Nash isn't as valuable as those guys.

I guess you can leave KG and TD as I already know your justification (2-way impact), but what it is particularly that made you vote for Dirk, LeBron or Kobe and not for Nash ? it's okay if you don't think he was as good as those players, but when oters are putting him at ~3rd on average in his MVP years and he barely makes one TOP5 on your ballot it's pretty clear that you value his game less than the consensus. I'm wondering why.

Actually, several of those things that you name.

*The defense is a concern for me. I read all of the different POVs about how individual offense is so much more important than individual defense, or how a perimeter player can't affect the game but so much on defense anyway so the lack of it doesn't matter, but I don't really buy it. A great defender can absolutely win games/championships for a team the same way a great offensive player can. The fact that Nash can only really impact a game on one end of the court takes him down at least one notch to me. As much as I might believe players like Kobe or LeBron might be over-hyped for what they actually contribute defensively, I've absolutely seen both of them change games with their defense. The fact that Nash can't do that at all puts him closer to the Ben Wallace end than the Tim Duncan end of the superstar spectrum. Not saying that Nash = Wallace, but being a 1-way star is a problem for me.

*The limitations to his game show up in that he could only dominate given an offense built around him. He didn't jump 2 levels in ability between '04 and '05, his circumstances changed. It's a credit to him that he had the talent to shine when put into those circumstances, but it shows me that he doesn't have enough versatility for my tastes. When Kobe or Wade were playing next to still-vital Shaq in offenses that catered to his strengths, they were still showing that they had elite-player ability. They can function at a high level in different systems. For Nash, if it's not built all around him he's good but not great (or maybe really good, but not elite?)...that limited-ness (is that a word?) leaves him a bit short of the super-elite in my eyes. (note: if you're Shaq, just dominating the game in every way with a somewhat limited skill-set it's different. He didn't need versatility because no one could stop his fastball. Nash's abilities aren't dominant to that level)

*Nash has played with a TON of talent in his career. Whether it was Nowtizki/Finley, Marion/Amare, or now Amare/Richardson he has spent the majority of his prime playing next to multiple all-star caliber talents with at least one of them as a big man. If he really were a top-5 player in the league, I have to feel like he'd have some rings by now. I don't care what system you put him in, if you give 2000s Duncan that type of support you're getting rings plural. Similarly with 2000s Garnett. Similarly with Kobe, or Wade, or LeBron. Yes, Nash is a great player, but not only does he not measure out as elite in the advanced stats, his record also doesn't pass a more basic sniff test with me...if his impact is really THAT large (even if the stats don't show it) then he should have some Jeter-like championship runs to use as supporting evidence.

I understand that in 2006 he kept the Suns afloat while Amare was out, but to me that was more junk-ball than keeping the team elite. Their record was about 8 games worse than the surrounding seasons without Amare, and they had an easy path through the playoffs until where they got eliminated. That year I thought any of Wade, Dirk, Kobe, LeBron, and KG were just better. Or, as I wrote when I voted: "I still believe that all of the players that I listed above Nash were simply better players, they measured out better in the advanced metrics, and if any of them were on the '06 Suns I could see them getting the Suns just as far. "

I could go on, but I think most of my criticisms would be similar/spin-offs to these. Again, I think Nash is a great player. I just think that his game isn't versatile enough or dominant enough to put him at the best-of-the-best category. If this project were ranking the top-10 in every year instead of top-5 he'd have multiple votes from me. I just don't think he's ever really gotten to that upper-most tier.

[sp6r=underrated]

I think it would be interesting if everyone created a post which has their ballots year by year

Here are mine

2004
1. KG
2. TD
3. Shaq
4. Dirk
5. Kobe

2003
1. TD
2. KG
3. T-MAC
4. Kobe
5. Shaq

[Silver Bullet]

Woah, the General Board is going nuts over tonight's game -

Was it that bad ? Lebron got booed ?

I had work to do - only watched the game in bits -

Really, really bad. Last year, while his team eventually lost, LeBron always was incredible, so imho it was ridiculous to have anyone leapfrog him. If Cleveland ends up losing this series with another game like this from LeBron, I don't actually know what I'll end up concluding.

This combined with Durant being a bit of a disappointment in the post-season, and Howard so far not being his team's playoff MVP provides fodder for much discussion.

Woah man, just went over the pressers and post-game reactions and the media is taking it worse than the General Board. I can't for the life of me fathom what's going on here -

I don't for a second buy that he wants out of Cleveland and just wasn't interested in the game -

I don't buy it that he choked - this is the guy who scored 26 points in a row in an elimination game against the mighty Pistons - he's the guy who hit a game winner against I forget who, while falling out of the court.

But I can't make sense of this at all -

The only crazy idea in my head is - maybe he's doing what we always thought Kobe does, having the worst game ever, having people skewer him in the media and then coming back and blasting the Celtics off the floor on their own court.

I don't know -

anyone else have a better take ?

[Silver Bullet]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-Mnfz6iB0&[/youtube]

[Sedale Threatt]

I thought he was just taking it easy in the first quarter, setting his teammates up and whatnot. He made an unbelievable play early on, ripping down a rebound in a crowd and hitting Shaq with a nice wrap-around bounce pass for a bucket.

But he just never picked up his energy or intensity. Just settled for jumpers and loafing around on the perimeter. The postgame show highlighted like three or four possessions where he was just standing around beyond the 3-point line while Parker and West went 1-on-1.

Then I think the team cratered after they came to the realization he didn't have it, and wasn't going to be bringing it.

I just hope nobody goes to the elbow excuse. OK, he might be hurting. But he's one of the best all-around players in history. Do something else. Create for your teammates. Hit the glass harder. Get more active on defense. SOMETHING.

But he just loafed around all night. Only he can say why, but I'll tell you this much -- I can't remember ever seeing guys like Jordan or Bird or Magic just go through the motions in a critical playoff game. They might have played bad in spots. But to be so disinterested...never.

It's truly baffling.

[Doctor MJ]

Ah, glad you posted that video, really shows why we're all so puzzled. You can't explain this with just an elbow injury. His head just wasn't in the game in what could be the biggest game he's ever played - and possibly his last game ever playing for his hometown team.

I don't think there's enough information to really come to a conclusion. I can't imagine he was pouting like Kobe in '06 - he has way too much power over the franchise for that to make sense. The whole "LeBron doesn't care" thing doesn't make sense to me - that's something you're not going to see first on a big stage, you'll see it with not taking the off-season and regular season seriously (cough, Shaq).

Honestly, it made me think of the Royal Tennenbaums:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obycGT3Wg-U&feature=related[/youtube]

[Sedale Threatt]

God damn I love that movie.

So basically what you're hypothesizing here is that LeBron's in love with his adopted sister?

[Doctor MJ]

God damn I love that movie.

So basically what you're hypothesizing here is that LeBron's in love with his adopted sister?

I'm afraid that's the only possible explanation Sedale.

[Sedale Threatt]

Well, let's just hope he doesn't end up shaving his head and slitting his wrists.

[Gongxi]

I think it would be interesting if everyone created a post which has their ballots year by year.

Good idea.

08-09

1- LeBron James
2- Dwyane Wade
3- Kobe Bryant
4- Chris Paul
5- Dwight Howard

07-08

1- LeBron James
2- Chris Paul
3- Kobe Bryant
4- Kevin Garnett
5- Dirk Nowitzki

06-07

1- Kobe Bryant
2- Dirk Nowitzki
3- Tim Duncan
4- LeBron James
5- Kevin Garnett

05-06

1- Dwayne Wade
2- Kobe Bryant
3- LeBron James
4- Dirk Nowitzki
5- Kevin Garnett

04-05

1- Kevin Garnett
2- Tim Duncan
3- Shaquille O'Neal
4- Steve Nash
5- Dirk Nowitzki

03-04

1- Kevin Garnett
2- Tim Duncan
3- Shaquille O'Neal
4- Kobe Bryant
5- Peja Stojakovic

02-03

1- Tracy McGrady
2- Tim Duncan
3- Kobe Bryant
4- Shaquille O'Neal
5- Kevin Garnett

01-02

1- Tim Duncan
2- Shaquille O'Neal
3- Tracy McGrady
4- Kobe Bryant
5- Jason Kidd

[semi-sentient]

Edit: Posted my voting record in the other thread.

[bastillon]

Gonxi you're way too reliant on boxscore stats.

[Gongxi]

AKA, what they actually do on the court.

[bastillon]

aka half of the things they do because the other half isn't in the boxscore. now I have no problem with you keeping Nash off your list. you based your premise on boxscore and Nash is far less dominant in raw numbers. it'll be said when we get to Russell...

[Gongxi]

Well, I didn't keep Nash off my list. I just didn't have him where you wanted him.

I'm sorry, honest to god production on the basketball court is the most important thing. I don't care how good a guy is at boxing out if it doesn't lead to more rebounds for him or his teammates (measurable by box score stats). I don't care how good a guy is at setting screens if it doesn't raise his teammates shooting percentage (box score stats). I don't care how great a guy is at taking acrobatic shots if he has poor shot selection that results in a lower FG% (box score stats).

There seems to be some focus on looking into esoteric conceptions of players and that's all well and good if you keep in mind that good ol' statistics do, in fact, give you the best measurement of the level at which a player plays. When you start to prize the vague, esoteric, and ultimately subjective explanations over the raw production (probably because you've fallen in love with a certain non-falsifiable model), you've done jumped the shark.

[Doctor MJ]

Can't promise to keep this always updated but, I like the idea:

2008-09

1. LeBron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Chris Paul
5. Dwight Howard

2007-08

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Chris Paul
3. LeBron James
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Steve Nash

2006-07

1. Tim Duncan
2. Steve Nash
3. LeBron James
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dirk Nowitzki

2005-06

1. Dwyane Wade
2. LeBron James
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Steve Nash

2004-05

1. Steve Nash
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Tim Duncan
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Kevin Garnett

2003-04

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Ben Wallace

2002-03

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Tracy McGrady
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dirk Nowitzki

2001-02

1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Jason Kidd
5. Kevin Garnett

[ElGee]

I'll try and keep this updated...

2009
1. LeBron James
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Chris Paul
5. Dwight Howard

2008
1. LeBron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Chris Paul
5. Tim Duncan

2007
1. Tim Duncan
2. Steve Nash
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Kobe Bryant
5. LeBron James

2006
1. Dwyane Wade
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Steve Nash
4. LeBron James
5. Kevin Garnett

2005
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Steve Nash
4. Dwyane Wade
5, Shaquille O'Neal

2004
1. Kevin Garnett
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dirk Nowitzki

2003
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Tracy McGrady
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Kobe Bryant