Where does Kobe rank All-Time with another Repeat?

Quincy · Post #161 » by **Quincy** » Fri May 14, 2010 8:25 pm

Interesting stat there. His longevity is amazing.

This is now, although 6-10 is completely open for debate, I think these are players:
1.Jordan
2.Russell
3.Kareem
4.Wilt
5.Magic
6.Shaq
7.Kobe
8.Bird
9.Duncan
10.Hakeem

Another title would give him more rings than Shaq. Meh, he would greatly enhance his legacy but likely wouldn't leapfrog anybody.

Dez Bryant · Post #162 » by **Dez Bryant** » Fri May 14, 2010 10:24 pm

finals MVP=top 5 all time.

Wilt
MJ
Russell
Magic
Kobe

this is how it is

NYK 455 · Post #163 » by **NYK 455** » Fri May 14, 2010 10:39 pm

People are seriously putting Kobe in front of Duncan, Shaq, and now Bird. Wow. Dude has only one ring as a first option and people are saying this? Incredible. I guess Pippen>Kobe.

Post #164 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Fri May 14, 2010 11:14 pm

Dez also put him ahead of Kareem :lol:

microfib4thewin · Post #165 » by **microfib4thewin** » Fri May 14, 2010 11:15 pm

poopdamoop wrote:Not sure if this has been mentioned, but it's interesting to look at the retro player of the year votes here. Kobe hasn't won any of them, but has been in the top 5 in almost every year. In that regard, he's a bit like Stockton in terms of all time rankings, imo. Sustained dominance, but never head and shoulders above his peers. I've no problem with him in the top 10, but it's hard to say he's any higher if he's never totally been the best player in the league.

Not exactly Stockton, he had a couple of years where he was a top 5 player, but he was more of a consistent top 10-15 whereas Kobe has legitimate claim to be top 3 during his peak. This does help Shaq and Duncan's argument though. Both had unanimous claim as the best player for one or two seasons, followed by another 9 to 10 years where they were a definite lock for top 5. People talk about Kobe's longevity, but he didn't become a top 5 player until 2001, and there are reasons to leave him out of the top 5 in 2004, 2005, and this year due to a combination of injuries and off-court distractions. If you take out those three seasons, then it's really 7 seasons where Kobe is an elite player. Even if Kobe wins a ring this year in an impressive fashion, it doesn't take away the fact that:

1. Kobe could very well be ringless in 2000-2002 without Shaq. He was definitely great in 01 and 02, but his uncontrollable behavior makes him a very difficult player to build around with. You can't rely on a player to lead when he shows zero leadership and constantly plays outside the system.

2. Duncan and Shaq never had a falloff season during their prime. It wasn't until they got old that they fell out of the top 5. A contending team needs its best player to be in great shape every year, and even though Shaq wasn't the best example of it he has played well enough in both the season and the playoffs you just can't put him out of the top 5 from 1994-2005.

Kobe is already showing decline in his jumping ability. We've already seen first hand what it could mean in the OKC series. It's not impossible, but I don't see a healthy Kobe competing with the best of the best as early as next year, and at best he may be able to extend his peak for two seasons. When that happens, then the longevity argument is out the window for Kobe. The only way for me to put Kobe on the same level as Duncan and Shaq is if he is able to 3 peat. That's the only way he can make up for the difference in their peak.

Wile E. Coyote · Post #166 » by **Wile E. Coyote** » Fri May 14, 2010 11:18 pm

microfib4thewin wrote:Kobe is already showing decline in his jumping ability. We've already seen first hand what it could mean in the OKC series.

He was injured. He said he was basically playing with one leg. He's already gotten more spring in his step in the five games since game five of that series.

Minge · Post #167 » by **Minge** » Fri May 14, 2010 11:28 pm

Los Angeles 117, Sacramento 107

Los Angeles 113, Sacramento 89

Sacramento 99, Los Angeles 91

Sacramento 101, Los Angeles 88

Los Angeles 113, Sacramento 86

Los Angeles 105, Phoenix 77

Los Angeles 97, Phoenix 96

Los Angeles 105, Phoenix 99

Phoenix 117, Los Angeles 98

Los Angeles 87, Phoenix 65

Los Angeles 109, Portland 94

Portland 106, Los Angeles 77

Los Angeles 93, Portland 91

Los Angeles 103, Portland 91

Portland 96, Los Angeles 88

Portland 103, Los Angeles 93

Los Angeles 89, Portland 84

Los Angeles 104, Indiana 87

Los Angeles 111, Indiana 104

Indiana 100, Los Angeles 91

Los Angeles 120, Indiana 118

Indiana 120, Los Angeles 87

Los Angeles 116, Indiana 111

Los Angeles 106, Portland 93

Los Angeles 106, Portland 88

Los Angeles 99, Portland 86

Los Angeles 108, Sacramento 105

Los Angeles 96, Sacramento 90

Los Angeles 103, Sacramento 81

Los Angeles 119, Sacramento 113

Los Angeles 104, San Antonio 90

Los Angeles 88, San Antonio 81

Los Angeles 111, San Antonio 72

Los Angeles 111, San Antonio 82

Philadelphia 107, Los Angeles 101

Los Angeles 98, Philadelphia 89

Los Angeles 96, Philadelphia 91

Los Angeles 100, Philadelphia 86

Los Angeles 108, Philadelphia 96

Los Angeles 95, Portland 87

Los Angeles 103, Portland 96

Los Angeles 92, Portland 91

Los Angeles 86, San Antonio 80

San Antonio 88, Los Angeles 85

Los Angeles 99, San Antonio 89

Los Angeles 87, San Antonio 85

Los Angeles 93, San Antonio 87

Los Angeles 106, Sacramento 99

Sacramento 96, Los Angeles 90

Sacramento 103, Los Angeles 90

Los Angeles 100, Sacramento 99

Sacramento 92, Los Angeles 91

Los Angeles 106, Sacramento 102

Los Angeles 112, Sacramento 106

Los Angeles 99, New Jersey 94

Los Angeles 106, New Jersey 83

Los Angeles 106, New Jersey 103

Los Angeles 113, New Jersey 107

Dez Bryant · Post #168 » by **Dez Bryant** » Fri May 14, 2010 11:28 pm

NYK 455 wrote:People are seriously putting Kobe in front of Duncan, Shaq, and now Bird. Wow. Dude has only one ring as a first option and people are saying this? Incredible. I guess Pippen>Kobe.

u sound like a dude that didn't watch the lakers.

KOBE was the first option, especially in the 4th quarter because shaq couldn't be trusted at the line.
KOBE never showed up out of shape, nor did he decide to take 6 weeks off like Shaq and his fat toe did.

Kobe has as many rings as Duncan, Larry Bird is insanely overrated. His lack of dedication is why his career suddenly hit the crapper, because all Larry did was get drunk every night and eat junk food. if he was as dedicated as Kobe Bird may be top 5. Plus Magic beat the c's without Kareem, thus Magic top 5 and Bird and KAJ below him

NYK 455 · Post #169 » by **NYK 455** » Fri May 14, 2010 11:38 pm

Dez Bryant wrote:
NYK 455 wrote:People are seriously putting Kobe in front of Duncan, Shaq, and now Bird. Wow. Dude has only one ring as a first option and people are saying this? Incredible. I guess Pippen>Kobe.

u sound like a dude that didn't watch the lakers.

KOBE was the first option, especially in the 4th quarter because shaq couldn't be trusted at the line.
KOBE never showed up out of shape, nor did he decide to take 6 weeks off like Shaq and his fat toe did.

Kobe has as many rings as Duncan, Larry Bird is insanely overrated. His lack of dedication is why his career suddenly hit the crapper, because all Larry did was get drunk every night and eat junk food. if he was as dedicated as Kobe Bird may be top 5. Plus Magic beat the c's without Kareem, thus Magic top 5 and Bird and KAJ below him

lmao at the whole damn post. Wow. Kobe has many rings as Duncan, that's true. But Pippen has more than Kobe, so I guess Pippen>Kobe and Duncan.

Sedale Threatt · Post #170 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Fri May 14, 2010 11:48 pm

Dez Bryant wrote:u sound like a dude that didn't watch the lakers.

KOBE was the first option, especially in the 4th quarter because shaq couldn't be trusted at the line.
KOBE never showed up out of shape, nor did he decide to take 6 weeks off like Shaq and his fat toe did.

Kobe has as many rings as Duncan, Larry Bird is insanely overrated. His lack of dedication is why his career suddenly hit the crapper, because all Larry did was get drunk every night and eat junk food. if he was as dedicated as Kobe Bird may be top 5. Plus Magic beat the c's without Kareem, thus Magic top 5 and Bird and KAJ below him

Wow, where to start?

First of all, I watched the Lakers plenty, and Kobe was not the first option. In certain scenarios, yeah, but not as a general rule of thumb. Kobe was much, much better than mere "second option" as many (like the poster above me) try to denigrate him, but those teams revolved around Shaq.

Second, Bird's decline had nothing to do with lack of dedication but a chronic back injury he initially suffered while laying a driveway at the house he built for his mother. He was still great after that, but it was injury, not lack of fitness, that eventually forced him to retire.

And third, the Lakers never beat the Celtics without significant contributions from Kareem. Finals MVP in 85, 18 ppg in 87, including 32 in the close-out game.

bl2k · Post #171 » by **bl2k** » Sat May 15, 2010 12:05 am

So the consensus is with a 5th ring and 2nd finals MVP it's laughable to compare Kobe to Ducan or Shaq.gotcha

SDChargers#1 · Post #172 » by **SDChargers#1** » Sat May 15, 2010 12:29 am

NYK 455 wrote:
Dez Bryant wrote:
NYK 455 wrote:People are seriously putting Kobe in front of Duncan, Shaq, and now Bird. Wow. Dude has only one ring as a first option and people are saying this? Incredible. I guess Pippen>Kobe.

u sound like a dude that didn't watch the lakers.

KOBE was the first option, especially in the 4th quarter because shaq couldn't be trusted at the line.
KOBE never showed up out of shape, nor did he decide to take 6 weeks off like Shaq and his fat toe did.

Kobe has as many rings as Duncan, Larry Bird is insanely overrated. His lack of dedication is why his career suddenly hit the crapper, because all Larry did was get drunk every night and eat junk food. if he was as dedicated as Kobe Bird may be top 5. Plus Magic beat the c's without Kareem, thus Magic top 5 and Bird and KAJ below him

lmao at the whole damn post. Wow. Kobe has many rings as Duncan, that's true. But Pippen has more than Kobe, so I guess Pippen>Kobe and Duncan.

Just because Championships matter does not mean that they are the sole indicator for greatness.

Kobe is greater than Pippen for many reasons...

1) His numbers are MUCH better
2) Even as a second option on the Lakers, he has many 1st option duties like being the go to guy in the 4th quarter, and putting up 1st option numbers. Pippen never put up 1st option numbers, and never was the go to guy at any period during the Jordan years.
3) Kobe has more accolades than Pippen (MVP (and top 5s), All NBAs, All Star games, etc)

That is why Pippen's championships don't put him over Kobe. Though I do feel Pippen is horribly underrated and is easily a top 25 player of all time (maybe even top 20). I will say if Pippen ever had led a team to a championship as the man, it would give his other championships a whole lot more meaning, but he was never able to do it.

NYK 455 · Post #173 » by **NYK 455** » Sat May 15, 2010 12:54 am

The criteria keeps changing, just to keep Kobe on top. lol. The reason most rank Kobe over Pippen is the same reason why most rank Shaq and Duncan higher than Kobe. They were better and meant more to their team. Kobe wasn't equal to Shaq, people need to stop that nonsense.

SDChargers#1 · Post #174 » by **SDChargers#1** » Sat May 15, 2010 1:12 am

NYK 455 wrote:The criteria keeps changing, just to keep Kobe on top. lol. The reason most rank Kobe over Pippen is the same reason why most rank Shaq and Duncan higher than Kobe. They were better and meant more to their team. Kobe wasn't equal to Shaq, people need to stop that nonsense.

The criteria hasn't changed at all. The difference is that Kobe has continued to add to his legacy over the past 3 seasons (and more to come) while Shaq hasn't added anything. So Kobe is getting closer and closer. I personally feel a championship this is what puts Kobe ahead.

An Unbiased Fan · Post #175 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Sat May 15, 2010 1:13 am

NYK 455 wrote:The criteria keeps changing, just to keep Kobe on top. lol. The reason most rank Kobe over Pippen is the same reason why most rank Shaq and Duncan higher than Kobe. They were better and meant more to their team. Kobe wasn't equal to Shaq, people need to stop that nonsense.

Kobe is a 8-time All-NBA/ All-D 1st teamer, that puts him in RARE company. Better than Shaq has been, and almost equal with Duncan.

kasino · Post #176 » by **kasino** » Sat May 15, 2010 2:02 am

For the 1st ring in his 4th season Kobe was 1 of 3 Lakers in double-digits the next player behind his playoff 21/4/4 was Glen Rice's 12/4/2.

The next ring 1 of 4 in double-digits. He moved his overall production up 29/7/6 the next options were Derrick Fisher(13/3/3) and Rick Fox(10/4/3).

The last ring again 1 of 3 Lakers in double-digits. He posted 26/5/5 next to Fishers 10/3/3
During this time Kobe was the Lakers leader in assist, best defender and best closer.

It is clear that the 3peat Lakers were Shaq/Kobe dominating the league.

Those Lakers weren't even as balanced as the Showtime who had great 3-5 options. It was truly just Shaq/Kobe.

All I'm saying Kobe gets as much credit as KAJ/Magic for those rings.

So his career is on the level with Shaq/Duncan and if he wins this ring I think he seperates from Shaq/Duncan to go with Bird/Magic.

This is a re-post

microfib4thewin · Post #177 » by **microfib4thewin** » Sat May 15, 2010 3:30 am

SDChargers#1 wrote:
NYK 455 wrote:The criteria keeps changing, just to keep Kobe on top. lol. The reason most rank Kobe over Pippen is the same reason why most rank Shaq and Duncan higher than Kobe. They were better and meant more to their team. Kobe wasn't equal to Shaq, people need to stop that nonsense.

The criteria hasn't changed at all. The difference is that Kobe has continued to add to his legacy over the past 3 seasons (and more to come) while Shaq hasn't added anything. So Kobe is getting closer and closer. I personally feel a championship this is what puts Kobe ahead.

What Kobe did in the last 3 years is easily eclipsed by Shaq having 7 allstar seasons, 2 All-NBA 1st, 2 All-NBA 2nd selection, 2 Finals appearance, a title, and GOAT peak prior to Kobe breaking out in 2001. Add that with Shaq being a better player from 01-03 and you're telling me that having two titles as the 2nd/3rd best player in the league will not only negate but surpass all those achievements? The only thing Kobe would really have on Shaq is the number of rings, and like you said, you can't count rings without context or you would have the whole Pippen > Kobe thing going on.

Mamba Venom · Post #178 » by **Mamba Venom** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:03 am

Tied w/ Magic, top 10 ever.

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Magic/Bird
Wilt
Bird
...

lakErfrOmManiLa · Post #179 » by **lakErfrOmManiLa** » Sat May 15, 2010 1:05 pm

If Kobe wins another one then:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russel
5. Magic
6. Bird/Kobe
7.Duncan/Shaq
8. Hakeem

If Kobe wins 2 more then:

1.Jordan
2. Wilt/Kareem/Russel
3. Kobe
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan/Shaq
7. Hakeem

If Kobe wins 3 more then:

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russel
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem

Frosty · Post #180 » by **Frosty** » Sat May 15, 2010 3:33 pm

I don't see how winning more titles makes him a better player. He's won titles, that gets him in the conversation but titles are a team thing. Kobe's not a better player just because he plays for a winning team. I don't think anyone uses number of titles as a yardstick once you get beyond about 3.