Rockets GM takes a shot at the Heat..

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Don't really care for your snotty attitude about things. Oh and by the way, for my fellow Heat fans, this poster predicted the Rockets would win 60+ games next season if they get Bosh. Not exactly the level-headed objective type.

Why wouldn't Houston win 60 with Bosh? 42 win team + Bosh and Yao Ming means 60 to me.

How they manage to get Bosh is the craziness.

C - Ming / Anderson
PF - Bosh / Hayes / Hill
SF - Ariza / Battier
SG - Martin / Battier
PG - Brooks / Lowry

That lineup is great if healthy. Don't have a chance in hell of getting him though IMO.

My objection is Yao's health. Beyond that, 60+ is a huge number. There are a lot of really good teams that never win 60+ games. We've only done it once as a franchise.

Also, same poster said Heat with Wade and Bosh would not be able to assemble a 50+ win team.

[salqaddoumi]

What's the point of posting a depth chart like that if they have to send like 3 of those guys out in order to get Bosh in a sign and trade? That is not how the team would look in the hypothetical situation that they land Bosh.

[Chosen01]

Don't really care for your snotty attitude about things. Oh and by the way, for my fellow Heat fans, this poster predicted the Rockets would win 60+ games next season if they get Bosh. Not exactly the level-headed objective type.

Why wouldn't Houston win 60 with Bosh? 42 win team + Bosh and Yao Ming means 60 to me.

How they manage to get Bosh is the craziness.

C - Ming / Anderson
PF - Bosh / Hayes / Hill
SF - Ariza / Battier
SG - Martin / Battier
PG - Brooks / Lowry

That lineup is great if healthy. Don't have a chance in hell of getting him though IMO.

Thats the whole point. Bosh, Yao, martin, will probably play 82 games...COMBINED.

[Ripp]

^-- the above post doesn't make any sense. You can take a player's injury history and get a good guesstimate of how many games they'll play in subsequent seasons.
Also, you can reduce risk of injury by reducing minutes, having more scoring options, taking Yao off of back to backs, etc. It isn't exactly impossible to keep people healthy...not having to carry as much of a burden on the floor is a pretty easy way to keep people fresh.
Spurs managed Manu and Timmy's minutes over the years, and have had great success doing so..

[BFRESH44]

^-- the above post doesn't make any sense. You can take a player's injury history and get a good guesstimate of how many games they'll play in subsequent seasons.
Also, you can reduce risk of injury by reducing minutes, having more scoring options, taking Yao off of back to backs, etc. It isn't exactly impossible to keep people healthy...not having to carry as much of a burden on the floor is a pretty easy way to keep people fresh.
Spurs managed Manu and Timmy's minutes over the years, and have had great success doing so..

Lets see. Like umm Tracy McGrady, Ron Artest, and Luis Scola?

That didn't work out too great.

And Yao isn't your typical player. The guy is a massive, MASSIVE human being. And has had constant problems with his joints. Guy has sustained multiple fractures to his feet, and has had a knee injury. This has been a re-occuring problem. The guy is certain to break down at some point..

He is literally one more injury from retirement.

[MartyConlonJr]

What's the point of posting a depth chart like that if they have to send like 3 of those guys out in order to get Bosh in a sign and trade? That is not how the team would look in the hypothetical situation that they land Bosh.

Hey, I definitely don't want to stick up for that guy.

But IF Toronto were dumb enough to swing a trade with Houston, I don't think they would want Martin, couldn't get Yao. They'd likely want Hill, Houston pick, Jeffries and other expirings, and try to move out Hedo in the trade.

My guess would be Jeffries, Battier, Hill, Hayes, Anderson, 2010 pick, 2012 pick.

They wouldn't want more of the mediocre talent on long contracts that Houston has.

So it would be

C - Ming / Scola
PF - Bosh / Scola
SF - Ariza / Turkoglu
SG - Martin / Ariza
PG - Brooks / Lowry

or something. They'd also have the MLE and LLE (assuming Toronto also wanted Ariza or Scola or something) I don't think he's delusional that that team could get 60, just delusional that they will get that team.

[Iputsomepantson]

To those who are saying Ariza is a mediocre talent, you guys gotta understand, he's a ROLEPLAYER and completely worth the money he's paid. It will be hard to sign a talent better than him this year at that position for the money he's making. If you want to argue that point, feel free. But I'm looking at the list of available FA's for SF and I don't see anyone who would be better for the money Ariza is making (although Miller is comparable).

Yes, Lebron would be ideal, but are we really going to get him (and he's not going to make Ariza money)? If we do, I'll hail Riley as a god and shut up about it. But I think I have a point.

Riley hasn't done ANYTHING to get this team in better shape for the future as far as acquiring chips to win us a championship the last three years and that's a fact.

Oh, he got rid of Banks to clear up capspace for us you say? Great! But he traded for Banks in the Shaq deal to begin with.

To those who forgot, 2010 was supposed to be the year we went over the top. Not the year we completely reconstructed our roster. The Rockets GM definitely has a point and Ariza would have definitely been one of those chips that could help us win a championship. He was afterall, one of those chips in LA starting all 23 games in the postseason and shooting lights out from the 3 pt line (.476)

[BFRESH44]

You are seriously whining about Trevor Ariza?

Trevor Ariza. It's really hard to take you seriosuly if thats your viewpoint.

Ariza is not even all that much better than Dorell. Or even Q-Rich, if at all. Please just stop it. And both of those guys can be retained with no issues, should we go in that direction. This even after we re-sign Wade, and and hopefully acquire one of Amare or Bosh.

What's with the whining? Riley has posistioned this team to be pretty darn good if our cards are played right. If our cards are played right, we should be at WORST a top 3 team in the Eastern Conference. And when you have Dwyane Wade on the roster, you'll always have a shot to do damage in the post-season.

Let's stop whining. And enjoy the ride to potential a very nice summer...

[TrueRain]

You are seriously whining about Trevor Ariza?

Trevor Ariza. It's really hard to take you seriosuly if thats your viewpoint.

Ariza is not even all that much better than Dorell or even Q-Rich if at all. Please just stop it.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Here's the way I see it. The GM's that hit on all the little moves and make all the right draft picks? They do a nice job making nice solid teams that compete in the playoffs but ultimately don't go anywhere.

But the NBA is a STAR league. You either get the stars, or you don't win championships. That is pretty much the rule of thumb, though occasionally a Detroit Pistons comes along and breaks tradition.

3 years ago, people were talking about Mitch Kupchak and Danny Ainge like they were 2 of the worst GM's in basketball.

Now, people look at them as the prototypical NBA GM. Go figure.

The important part here is, Riley has put himself in position to get those star players. If he fails, we will roast him, no doubt. But if he succeeds, this is what it was all about. You get the stars, and the other pieces WILL fall into place.

[LarsV8]

Please, please don't play dumb. You came on this board to poke the bear, as if to say "see, I told you so". Knowing he didn't want to be poked.

I apologize to you if you think I was condecending. I have an obvious bias towards Houston, but I form my opinions objectively. I offered you the opportunity to explain to me how things could play out as most Heat fans predicted and you couldnt do it without dipping into faerie land logic. In the end, of our hyptothetical scenario that is, you had your two max players, and Haslem and a Charlie Bell type, but thats all you had. And thats not a dynasty, thats an above average team at best.

And on top of that, your condescending tone is BS because a lot of what we went over is already wrong now. You projected a lower salary cap, and were wrong, its at 56 million.

On top of that, on the T&T board, there have been multiple offers discussed with people who understand the cap better than you which would allow Miami to lose Jones, Cook, Beasley and their 1st opening even more room than before

.

Well first of all there are very few people who understand the cap better than me. Ive studied it extensively. In the scenario I specifically gave you, we assumed 55 million dollars, which is not a bad guess. I think initial estimates were 53 million. It still doesnt change the fact that in order for Miamis plan to work, MULTIPLE minimum salary players would be on the Heat. That point has been reinterated by our astute GM.

For whatever reason people seem to think they can list a bunch of players and salary figures and make it work under the CBA. Sorry, it doesnt work like that and it never has. If Miami moves that package for more cap room, so be it. I dont see it happening personally, but it could.

The point is that negotations with one person are extremely complex and time consuming. I am going to go ahead and guess you have never sat down with a lawyer before and tried to work something out. That **** takes forever and comes down to every min-oot detail in the wording. Heat fans, in general, seem to think that RIley can magically work out 8+ contracts at once and make it all work out with vets taking the minimum, Wade resigning, and another max signing up. Thats fiction, real life doesnt work like that. If it did, the Heat wouldnt have to lauch a welovewade pr campaign.

Don't really care for your snotty attitude about things. Oh and by the way, for my fellow Heat fans, this poster predicted the Rockets would win 60+ games next season if they get Bosh. Not exactly the level-headed objective type.

Just cause I dont agree with you or think Miami is a dynasty in the making, doesnt mean I a have a snotty attitude. Miami is in a position for great things to happen going forward, assuming all the cards fall the right way. But they are also taking a HUGE risk at the same time. If you can't see that, you are a blind homer.

Adding Bosh to a 50+ win team is a reasonable prediction to assume 60 wins is a possibility. You can ignore that all you want, doesnt change the reality of it. Yeah, we need health, yea we need alot of guys to stay healthy, but we dont have to take a ton of risk (like Miami) for our cards to fall the right way.

[Chosen01]

If that "big" risk lands us Bosh/JJ Amare/JJ Lebron/Bosh, I'll take it. The risk we don't get 1 is highly unlikely. Tbh the way people make it seem. If we were to sign players all those years, we would have probably been like the raptors, having no flexibility. We'll just have to wait until July 1st.

[fishfuego.]

Here's the way I see it. The GM's that hit on all the little moves and make all the right draft picks? They do a nice job making nice solid teams that compete in the playoffs but ultimately don't go anywhere.

But the NBA is a STAR league. You either get the stars, or you don't win championships. That is pretty much the rule of thumb, though occasionally a Detroit Pistons comes along and breaks tradition.

3 years ago, people were talking about Mitch Kupchak and Danny Ainge like they were 2 of the worst GM's in basketball.

Now, people look at them as the prototypical NBA GM. Go figure.

The important part here is, Riley has put himself in position to get those star players. If he fails, we will roast him, no doubt. But if he succeeds, this is what it was all about. You get the stars, and the other pieces WILL fall into place.

This^

Also, all GMs aim high with predictions, but only few of them get the intended results. I mean heck even the bad teams have GMs thinking they can turn around, develop contending teams etc, only to get fired 3-4 years later. Riley still here and has delivered unlike many GMs.

The Heat rebuilds quicker than most franchises ( Nicks, etc), and that is because Riley . He may not put together a complete dynasty first attempt, but he's created an opportunity, and quite honest an exciting off season if anything .. I would hate to be a Toronto or a Wizards franchise.

[Iputsomepantson]

Here's the way I see it. The GM's that hit on all the little moves and make all the right draft picks? They do a nice job making nice solid teams that compete in the playoffs but ultimately don't go anywhere.

But the NBA is a STAR league. You either get the stars, or you don't win championships. That is pretty much the rule of thumb, though occasionally a Detroit Pistons comes along and breaks tradition.

3 years ago, people were talking about Mitch Kupchak and Danny Ainge like they were 2 of the worst GM's in basketball.

Now, people look at them as the prototypical NBA GM. Go figure.

The important part here is, Riley has put himself in position to get those star players. If he fails, we will roast him, no doubt. But if he succeeds, this is what it was all about. You get the stars, and the other pieces WILL fall into place.

To Tim_Hardway:

The Lakers were not built in a day, they were built with a series of trades, draft picks, and MLE or less signings, to acquire the right players (Odom, Bynum, Ariza, Gasol, Fisher).

The Celtics were not built in a day either. They had to trade their entire squad to acquire Ray Allen and Garnett. They weren't built on capspace acquisition.

In fact, the last time I recall a team utilizing capspace to win a championship was the Lakers signing Shaq, but that was in a different era of NBA free agent signings. The last team in recent memory I can think of that came even close was the Magic when they got Hill and Mcgrady and the Suns with their signing of Nash.
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Anyways guys, my beef isn't that Pat Riley should have spent all of that capspace on a crop of free agents, my beef is that we've all been sold on the notion that 2010 is the year we compete to win a championship, and Riley hasn't acquired any of the right players the past three years to do that. Now you can say "who cares?!?! We have all this capspace, that's why we didn't sign anyone!" But yet Pat himself even said he wants to do a S&T for a player instead of signing them outright so that we can retain some of our FA's.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miam ... 4131.story

If he's been planning on doing a S&T from the start, why the hell haven't we been trying to acquire talent that we could put around that S&T player?

All of you jackasses that keep trying to laugh off the Trevor Ariza debate fail to understand the nature of the argument. Someone asked me who I would of signed that could help us, I said Trevor Ariza. Yet, everyone here criticizing me continue to FAIL at answering my question of what chips Pat Riley has acquired the past 3 years to make this team win a championship .

Pat Riley is not doing a good job at GMing this team, and someone has to call him out. Just like someone had to call out Beasley for his poor play, and Spoelstra for his poor coaching. That someone is me.

[fishfuego.]

And to the Houston poster, by adding a Bosh type player won't really make Houston a dominant top team, a very good team yes, but to dominate you need a dark horse type player like Wade that can impact games at a different level, and Bosh is not that type of a player. So your statement that Wade + Bosh and possibly another Max or 3rd tier Star + role players won't be enough is flawed. Wade has proven he can take garbage players into post season, just imagine what he can do with a real team... stay tune!

[LarsV8]

Its more than just that ^

You gotta understand how our offense is built. Scola is a fantastic player but he has some flaws in his game. He finishes on the pick and roll at about a 40% clip, meanwhile Bosh finishes at about a 60% clip. Scola also refuses to leave the paint to defend stretch 4s nor is he mobile enough to defend the pick and roll. Bosh does all that with the added bonus of drawing a ton of fouls in the process. Now Yao is good, but when he operates late in quarters when we are in the penalty, his effeciency goes through the roof.

What I am saying is, you have to understand its more than just "Adding some more talent", its adding a really really good piece, that fits perfectly.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

To Tim_Hardway:

The Lakers were not built in a day, they were built with a series of trades, draft picks, and MLE or less signings, to acquire the right players (Odom, Bynum, Ariza, Gasol, Fisher).

The Celtics were not built in a day either. They had to trade their entire squad to acquire Ray Allen and Garnett. They weren't built on capspace acquisition.

In fact, the last time I recall a team utilizing capspace to win a championship was the Lakers signing Shaq, but that was in a different era of NBA free agent signings. The last team in recent memory I can think of that came even close was the Magic when they got Hill and Mcgrady and the Suns with their signing of Nash.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyways guys, my beef isn't that Pat Riley should have spent all of that capspace on a crop of free agents, my beef is that we've all been sold on the notion that 2010 is the year we compete to win a championship, and Riley hasn't acquired any of the right players the past three years to do that. Now you can say "who cares?!?! We have all this capspace, that's why we didn't sign anyone!" But yet Pat himself even said he wants to do a S&T for a player instead of signing them outright so that we can retain some of our FA's.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miam ... 4131.story

If he's been planning on doing a S&T from the start, why the hell haven't we been trying to acquire talent that we could put around that S&T player?

All of you jackasses that keep trying to laugh off the Trevor Ariza debate fail to understand the nature of the argument. Someone asked me who I would of signed that could help us, I said Trevor Ariza. Yet, everyone here criticizing me continue to FAIL at answering my question of what chips Pat Riley has acquired the past 3 years to make this team win a championship .

Pat Riley is not doing a good job at GMing this team, and someone has to call him out. Just like someone had to call out Beasley for his poor play, and Spoelstra for his poor coaching. That someone is me.

My counter:

Riley hasn't sat on his hands and done nothing the past few years. The Shaq situation was a huge issue that he luckily got us out of, that could have gone a lot worse than it did. People were saying Shaq was untradeable at that time, and he managed to turn him into Marion and JO, players who helped to keep us competitive the past 2 seasons.

Unfortunately, he struck out on a couple of draft picks (Cook, Beasley) and the signing he did make wasn't a good one (James Jones). But this is why you don't count on moves like this to build a winner. They are hit or miss.

Everyone lauding Daryl Morey doesn't really acknowledge that he struck out on the Ariza deal (overpaid for the production he gives) or that Kevin Martin may be a piece that doesn't really fit down the line either (weakens them defensively, 11 million a season). He makes 1 or 2 more mistakes of that variety and all of a sudden he's looking at a complete roster shuffle.

What Riley has done the past few seasons is tried to limit mistakes so that he could load up as much as possible this offseason, and I think he's done a good job of that. Its a shame he couldn't pick out more diamond in the rough type talents, but in the NBA, that is never, ever a sure thing.

Honestly, just look at the Beasley pick. There isn't a team in the NBA that wouldn't have picked him at number 2. How can you fault Riley for that?

At the same time, how about giving him some credit for moves like not trading Dorell to save cash, getting Q-Rich for Blount, trading for the pick to get Chalmers, and discovering Joel Anthony... all players who we could likely get back for cheap next season. Do those moves not count because overall you're unhappy with where we stand?

Not to mention the JO trade, which was a huge success, getting rid of Banks, getting the 1st round pick, and Moon to help us that season. And you can't take off points for taking on Banks, because at the time we traded Shaq, that was seen as a very positive move. It was going to be HARD to move him. There was talk of possibly settling for a buyout.

Bottom line is this though, no matter how much you want to bitch, its pointless until we see what we get in free agency. If we strike out... then you can freak out and talk about how Riley ruined us. If we hit the jackpot.. then you can bitch that we could've had better role players for LeBron and Wade, because I'm sure that's what you'll do regardless.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

To Lars:

Nobody said you didn't understand the cap, but this is where you come off as snotty and a bit of a know-it-all. You're not impressing anybody here.

And I remember our hypothetical, I put together basically the same roster Miami had last season, but with Bosh in place of JO (it was kind of a worst case where Miami gets Bosh scenario), and you said that's a 45-50 win team. That's where you come off as a homer.

Miami was a 47 win team this past season, and you're saying adding Bosh in place of JO makes almost no difference.

Not to mention, you plug him in your roster and expect 60 wins, which would have to assume healthy Yao (which is never a sure thing) and that all the pieces fit.

If you honestly can't see that you're coming off as condescending, then I really don't know what to say.

And lastly, the big difference between Miami getting Bosh and Houston: The Rockets still may be one star short if Yao can't stay healthy. Star players are damn hard to get. Miami at worst just has to get a couple of role players to work with Bosh/Wade.

Teams like the Bulls, Lakers and Spurs have shown us that once you get the right stars in place, role players are very interchangeable.

[LarsV8]

Everyone lauding Daryl Morey doesn't really acknowledge that he struck out on the Ariza deal (overpaid for the production he gives) or that Kevin Martin may be a piece that doesn't really fit down the line either (weakens them defensively, 11 million a season). He makes 1 or 2 more mistakes of that variety and all of a sudden he's looking at a complete roster shuffle.

Uh they don't acknowledge them because they arent mistakes.

All you see is the surface. Morey knew he wanted Bosh and he knew Toronto wanted Ariza from last off season, hence he signed Ariza. In order to get him to sign here he promised to "feature" him offensively. They let Ariza pretend like he was Kobe Bryant for the first half of the season since it was an off year anyway so he develop his game. It was painful to watch sure, but once Martin got here and he reverted to his normal role, he was perfect.

Stats for March, April (20 games):
13 ppg
43.6% shooting
38.7% threes
1.89 steals
4.2 assists
5.7 rebounds

with 1 triple double, one 18-8-8 game and one 17-9-8 game. He is in his prime and he is locked up for the MLE. Overpaid, I dont think so.

How the heck does Kevin Martin not fit? He is a highly effecient offensive player who doesnt need the ball to be effective. He fits like a glove. How does going from one no defense SG in McGrady to another no defense Sg weaken us defensively? We have had a top 5 defense in 4 of the past 5 years I believe lol.

To Lars:

Nobody said you didn't understand the cap, but this is where you come off as snotty and a bit of a know-it-all. You're not impressing anybody here.

And I remember our hypothetical, I put together basically the same roster Miami had last season, but with Bosh in place of JO (it was kind of a worst case where Miami gets Bosh scenario), and you said that's a 45-50 win team. That's where you come off as a homer.

Miami was a 47 win team this past season, and you're saying adding Bosh in place of JO makes almost no difference.

Not to mention, you plug him in your roster and expect 60 wins, which would have to assume healthy Yao (which is never a sure thing) and that all the pieces fit.

If you honestly can't see that you're coming off as condescending, then I really don't know what to say.

And lastly, the big difference between Miami getting Bosh and Houston: The Rockets still may be one star short if Yao can't stay healthy. Star players are damn hard to get. Miami at worst just has to get a couple of role players to work with Bosh/Wade.

Teams like the Bulls, Lakers and Spurs have shown us that once you get the right stars in place, role players are very interchangeable.

1.) it wasnt swapping JO for Bosh, it was swapping like 50% of your roster and JO for Bosh.
2.) It doesnt matter what a team is missing, if its not complete it wont compete.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Lars, when you start cherry picking good stretches of play to back a player you've entered homer territory. I'm used to it with Beasley fans on our board. Nothing wrong with it, but the bottom line is Ariza was a letdown for the most part this year.

And the thing with Martin, he is on the hook 10-12 million a season for 3 more years. Its not a bad contract, but if it prevents you from adding players in that time period it will hurt some. His PER last season was 17... you're getting elite offensive efficiency out of him, but no rebounding, no assists, pretty much nothing but scoring.

If you guys don't add Bosh this summer, I'll be interested to see how things play out in Houston. You guys have a lot of expiring deals, but now is when Morey is gonna have to earn his money and show what he's worth. He's gonna have to turn that space into star players worth that cash.

If you get Bosh, that's it, you did it. But if not...

Riley has set himself up pretty well I think. At this point, the worst case for this summer looks to be Wade/Boozer (Wade is practically going out of his way to make it clear he's staying, you can check his twitter for more on that). And then we'll still have cap and room to improve the roster after that.

I like what Houston's doing, I really do, but they have to cash in those chips at some point. And personally I think Yao needs to go, I would not want to rely on him staying healthy if I'm a contender.