Retro Player of the Year Project

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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#481 » by semi-sentient » Mon May 17, 2010 1:02 am

I've got 3-5 narrowed down the below 4 players, and unfortunately one of them won't be making it.

I'm watching as much video as I can to compliment the statistics and from what I've seen so far (which tends to back up the voting and general perceptions), I'd rank them as follows:

Code: Select all

   Offense    Defense    Games    Minutes    Awards

1) Payton     Kobe       Malone   Garnett    Garnett
2) Malone     Garnett    Kobe     Payton     Kobe
3) Kobe       Payton     Payton   Kobe       Payton
3) Garnett    Malone     Garnett  Malone     Malone


I really need to see more video of Garnett and Payton though, particularly what they did in their post-season series. So far, Kobe has been spectacular on both ends against the Kings and Suns. In both cases, he took the opposing PG's completely out of their game.

Code: Select all

Jason Williams:
RS: 12.3 PTS (.477 TS%), 2.8 REB,  7.3 AST, 1.4 STL, 0.1 BLK, 3.7 TOV
PS: 10.4 PTS (.496 TS%), 1.6 REB,  2.4 AST, 0.6 STL, 0.0 BLK, 1.6 TOV

Jason Kidd:
RS: 14.3 PTS (.498 TS%), 7.2 REB, 10.1 AST, 2.0 STL, 0.4 BLK, 3.4 TOV
PS: 10.0 PTS (.463 TS%), 7.6 REB,  8.6 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.2 BLK, 3.6 TOV


Doug Collins, Magic Johnson, Danny Ainge, and John Thompson have all stated that he's the best wing player in the game because of his two-way play, and Doug Collins and John Thompson in particular are raving about his defense -- which they should be.

Still have lots to watch and I'm moving on to the Finals to rewatch some of those games, but I'm pretty convinced that Kobe made up for his missed games in the regular season with his post-season play. He was way better than I remember, that's for sure.

If anyone has YouTube videos of these other guys, please post. It's easy to build a case for Kobe because the videos are there, so I'd like to see some of the other players a bit more. Minge posted just about all of the Lakers games here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1010121&start=165

Some highlights of his first half against the Kings (Game 2) showcasing his versatility:
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC55R5JCpX8
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl24ihLkxFs


PS: Some funny commentary from the Lakers/Kings series. Webber and Divac were talking about how unstoppable Shaq was in the paint and how they weren't going to cry about it because he was so big and that's just an advantage that he's entitled to. Webber then goes on to talk about how the post is where grown men play, which is funny because all he does is settle for jumpers against the Lakers. He was pretty easy to eliminate based on his play, and his numbers look much better than his actual impact. Very good player, but not top 5 worthy.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#482 » by bastillon » Mon May 17, 2010 1:45 am

Offense Defense Games Minutes Awards

1) Malone Kobe Malone Garnett Garnett
2) Payton Garnett Kobe Payton Kobe
3) Kobe Payton Payton Kobe Payton
3) Garnett Malone Garnett Malone Malone


so Kobe was a better defender than Garnett... and offensive player... and played more games (not really). this is just funny at this point.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#483 » by An Unbiased Fan » Mon May 17, 2010 1:51 am

bastillon, I see where you're coming from, and in another thread I put KG at #3 in 2000. BUT, that was before I looked deeper at that year, and he no longer was a Top 5 lock. KG had a great, well-balanced RS, but.....similar to Dirk in 07' and Webber in 01', KG had a big flameout in the PS. His shooting was god awful and directly responsible for Minny losing the series.

Let's breakdown that Minny vs Portland series a bit:

Game 1: Portland wins 91-88
Box Score - http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... 4-23/00/22

Recap - http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basket ... 3/por_min/

KG lost this game for Minny, IMO. He shot 6-20 from the field, while the rest of the team shot 33-62(53%). Terrell Brandon kept Minny in the game and they had a 6 point lead going into the 4th.

Then....
"Rasheed Wallace covered Garnett most of the day and held him to two points in the fourth quarter. Meanwhile, Wallace scored seven of his 15 points in the final period."

KG's line from G1 was 12/11/10. But it was Brandon(17 pts, 12 assists) and Seily's 23 points on 8-12 shooting that even gave them a chance. In the 4th KG only scored 2, while Wallace dropped 7 of his 15.


Game 2: Portland wins 86-82

Box - http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... 26/00/22/1

Recap - http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basket ... 6/por_min/

Decent game for KG with 23/10/5 on 8-16 shooting, and he had help again from Brandon with 20/7/6. But Portland won a tight game, and KG still didn't take over, including missing a key FT which put Minny down by 3 instead of 2 late. This was the wrap on KG back then, the guy just couldn't close a game out like other superstars.

Games 3: Minny avoids a sweep 94-87

Box - http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... 4-30/00/16

Recap - http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basket ... 0/min_por/

KG has his 2nd triple double(23/13/10), but his first impactful one. Brandon, yet again played big and dropped 28 points, 12 assists, and 7 boards. This notion that KG had no help is false.Terrell also shutdown Damon to 0-8 shooting which was the key difference.

Game 4: Portland rallys, KG implodes 85-77

Box - http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... 5-02/00/16

Recap - http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basket ... 2/min_por/

Minny blew a 9 point 4th quarter lead at home, and KG missed his last 6 shots. Overall he shot 5-20 with 10 boards & 9 assists. Brandon added 13/6/4, but only played 32 minutes due to foul trouble. Without Terrell, Minny totally collasped in the 4th.


Thoughts:
KG's shooting in this series directly cost Minny 2 games. Terrell Brandon was the Wolves best and most consistent player that series. If KG steps up, Minny had a legit shot at beating Portland because Brandon was playing great.

Even in the Regular Season, this notion that KG had no help is wrong. Terrell Brandon was a borderline All-Star still, and had a line of 17.1 ppg, 8.9 apg(5th in NBA), 1.9 spg.

Shaq will obviously be #1 for 00', but so far, I have Malone, Zo, GP, Kobe, Kidd, and KG all still in the mix, with Zo & Malone likely in the 2 & 3 spots. It's going to be tough balancing RS vs PS.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#484 » by semi-sentient » Mon May 17, 2010 2:02 am

bastillon wrote:
Offense Defense Games Minutes Awards

1) Malone Kobe Malone Garnett Garnett
2) Payton Garnett Kobe Payton Kobe
3) Kobe Payton Payton Kobe Payton
3) Garnett Malone Garnett Malone Malone


so Kobe was a better defender than Garnett... and offensive player... and played more games (not really). this is just funny at this point.


Prove me wrong.

More DPOY votes, an all-league defender just like Garnett, best perimeter defender in the league (by many accounts)... all backed up by the videos that Minge posted in another thread. The Lakers had the best defense in the league, and by far the best perimeter defense. The Wolves, as usual, were average.

What evidence is there to support KG as a better defender or even offensive player? I know you won't be posting any oRtg or dRtg numbers, because they favor Kobe (and personally, I think those are BS anyway).

I won't even bother with who the better offensive player is, because KG's game is pretty limited compared to Kobe's. Like Webber, he puts no pressure on the defense because he likes to take those 15-18 footers, and he's most certainly not a better play-maker. Kobe showed his ability to take over games several times in the playoffs. Did Garnett? Nope. Go watch the Lakers/Kings Game 1 and listen to the halftime show. Isaiah (and I forget who else) are criticizing KG for his lack of scoring even though he posted a triple double. The Wolves needed someone who could score and pressure the defense, and let's face it, KG couldn't do that back then when it mattered.

And games played includes the post-season. I'm adding everything up and judging their performance. Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

PS: Kobe scored more points in the first half of Game 2 in the SAC series than KG did in any of his 4 games. Scoring outbursts like that are demoralizing, especially in the playoffs. The Kings couldn't do anything to stop him, just like the Pacers couldn't stop him in Game 4 of the Finals. That ability to takeover is something that KG has never had.

PPS: Kobe's assignment, Damon Stoudemire, from the Blazers series:

Code: Select all

RS: 12.5 PTS (.508 TS%), 3.1 REB, 5.2 AST, 1.0 STL, 0.0 BLK, 1.9 TOV
PS:  7.7 PTS (.489 TS%), 2.9 REB, 3.0 AST, 0.8 STL, 0.1 BLK, 1.1 TOV


That's 3 great defensive series in a row.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#485 » by Sedale Threatt » Mon May 17, 2010 2:38 am

bastillon wrote:so let's just toss all that crap aside and focus on the only important factor here which is...

the defense!...
... the rebounding...
...unselfishness ?...

oh, wait, right - got it now !
... which is THE SCORING !111ONEONE
38%, bad performance, period.


I've seen you savage several of Kareem's playoff performances based almost entirely on drops in his scoring and shooting percentage.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#486 » by NO-KG-AI » Mon May 17, 2010 2:39 am

Seriously?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#487 » by Baller 24 » Mon May 17, 2010 2:39 am

I've narrowed it down to a top 6, I guess I'll think about the last spot as the new thread starts and I hear more arguments, but it's basically Shaq, Zo, Malone, KG, Payton, and Bryant. I can't really see any compelling arguments that make me favor any other player that season.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#488 » by NO-KG-AI » Mon May 17, 2010 2:43 am

I can't even wrap my brain around Kobe being a better defender than Garnett or any elite big.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#489 » by Baller 24 » Mon May 17, 2010 2:55 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:I can't even wrap my brain around Kobe being a better defender than Garnett or any elite big.


What are the opinions on Kobe v Payton that season as a defender? It's noted that Kobe credited Payton for how well he was doing defensively. Even in a SI Interview, they cite that Kobe credited that he worked with Payton on defense.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#490 » by semi-sentient » Mon May 17, 2010 3:00 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:I can't even wrap my brain around Kobe being a better defender than Garnett or any elite big.


I need to see some video of Garnett playing back then. Kobe's numbers are better, but those are deceiving. I'd rather judge him based on how he actually plays, and unfortunately, my view is a bit biased because I only have video of Kobe that Minge provided. What I do know is that Garnett didn't have all that much size, so for a big, how effective was he really? Can we seriously lump him in with guys like Zo, Duncan, and Robinson who truly were elite bigs? I have my doubts.

Remember though, this is Frobe that we're talking about. He's hounding PG's in every series and preventing entry passes/cutting off passing lanes. His defense is very effective. He's also guarding 3 different positions effectively (spent time on Pippen, Smith, Penny, Miller, etc.), so it's not like he isn't versatile.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#491 » by Baller 24 » Mon May 17, 2010 3:11 am

Sports Illustrated on Gary Payton, after about a quarter of the season through:

December 20, 1999
The Hustler
The surprising Sonics are taking their cue from brash Gary Payton, who had blossomed into a team leader as well as the best all-around guard in the game

Regardless of what the roster might say, a player doesn't officially join the Seattle SuperSonics until point guard Gary Payton beats him in a game of pool. Call it a rite of Northwest passage: Payton invites the newcomer to Jillian's Billiards Club, near the Sonics' practice facility, or to his mansion in the Seattle suburb of Factoria for a game of eight ball. It's a casual affair until Payton suggests they liven things up with a friendly wager. Once the money's on the table, Payton assumes his on-court persona. A scowl darkens his face, his goateed jaw juts halfway to Spokane, trash spews from his mouth. "Then it's bang-bang-bang," says Seattle forward Vin Baker. "Before you know what hit you, G doesn't have any balls left on the table, and your hard-earned cash is gone."

From taking his unsuspecting teammates' money in pool to zipping a pass on the break to flicking a ball loose on defense, Payton does almost everything at warp speed. You can't hurry professional maturity, however, and Payton's growth as an NBA superstar has spanned the better part of a decade. It has been a gradual and, at times, painstaking process, but the finished product is a sight to behold. In the prime of his career at 31, Payton has arrived as the standard-bearer of this post-Jordan era. Payton bridges the divide between the savvy-but-shopworn stars like Karl Malone, Reggie Miller and David Robinson and the flashy-but-callow group led by Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson and Stephon Marbury. Bypassing the obvious choice, Tim Duncan, Charles Barkley recently anointed Payton "the best player on the planet."

Owing largely to their point guard, the Sonics were 15-6 through Sunday, well on their way to exorcising the demons of last season, when they failed to make the playoffs for the first time since 1989-90. Payton's play has been typically stellar. At week's end he was averaging 22.2 points, 9.0 assists, 6.3 rebounds and 1.9 steals. But his willingness to embrace the role of Seattle's éminence grise has been just as vital to the team's early success. "We've always had a lot of veterans, guys like Nate McMillan, Sam Perkins and Hersey Hawkins, who were leaders," says Payton, the lone Sonic left from the 1995-96 unit that lost in the Finals to the Chicago Bulls in six games. "Now that they're not here, I understand that this is my team, and I'm taking that role dead seriously."

Over the summer Payton urged team president Wally Walker to restock the roster with players who complemented his feisty style. Hawkins, Detlef Schrempf, Dale Ellis, Olden Polynice, Billy Owens and Don MacLean were sent packing, replaced by warhorses like forward-center Horace Grant and guard Vernon Maxwell, who have five rings between them, as well as slash-and-burn swingmen Brent Barry and Ruben Patterson. Overnight the Sonics became a team loaded with attitude, their deliberate style supplanted by a frenetic attack that averages 100.1 points, 5.1 more than last season. Payton set the tone this summer when he flew his new teammates to his Las Vegas home for outdoor workouts in the desert heat. "Gary's come of age," says McMillan, now a Seattle assistant. "He gets in guys' faces when he has to, but he's also leading by example. When I think back to how he was earlier in his career, let's just say he's grown by leaps and bounds."

Payton has come a long way from the blowhard he was in his rookie season, when he said breezily, "Players like me and Magic only come along once every decade" (never mind, for the moment, that he happened to have been right), and from the hothead who turned ugly in the 1994 playoffs, during which he and Ricky Pierce suggested using firearms to settle a locker room dispute. "The book on Gary used to be that he was talented but was so intense that you could rattle him and throw him off his game," Sonics coach Paul Westphal says. "He still has the edge, but he knows how to control it."

His wife, Monique, and their three children have been steadying influences, but Payton believes his new maturity is owed to no epiphany. "You don't just come in and say, 'Bam, I'm mature; I'm the leader,' " he says. "It took time for me to grow into this and learn how to talk to certain players and how to handle certain situations."

Take his relationship with Baker, who last season suffered a crisis of confidence and endured the worst year of his career. Payton didn't help matters when he called Baker an "out-of-shape crybaby" at a heated practice last April. Best of friends off the court, Payton and Baker both downplayed the incident, which could easily have divided the team. This season Payton arrived at training camp vowing to "pump Vin up" and make sure the 28-year-old Baker returned to his All-Star level of play. Through Sunday, Baker's production was up over last season in almost every department. "Part of being a leader," says Payton, "means knowing who you can go after and who you should pat on the butt."

Consider, too, the game at Vancouver last month, when Seattle got the short end of a string of dubious calls and trailed the toothless Grizzlies by 16 points in the fourth quarter. Rather than follow the example of Baker, who was ejected and had to be restrained from going after the refs, Payton told his charges to disregard the officiating—in the characteristically un-PG parlance of GP: "F—-the motherf———calls!"—and kept his head, orchestrating a stunning 110-108 victory.

With each season Payton has added to his game, which is a brilliant mixture of efficiency and subtlety. He can go months without dunking, he lacks the killer crossover of other top point guards, and even when his jumper goes in, it's not easy on the eyes. Barry goes so far as to call Payton's style "kind of junky." Yet Payton is the rare noncenter who can dominate without taking a shot; when he's on the court, the other nine players pay him constant attention. "The NBA tries to be about flash," Payton says. "But real fans recognize the guy who makes things happen."

Like a pool shark on a hot streak, Pay-ton is capable of dropping in points in bunches, especially when he uses his deceptively strong 6'4", 180-pound frame to post up opponents and then slips deftly around them for a finger roll. But he is more effective in the role of playmaker, drawing the double team and then delivering the perfect pass—a Seattleite dish, as it were—to a cutter or an open shooter. "Gary makes the game fun," says Barry, "because he knows how to make all of his teammates better."

Yet Payton, an all-defensive first-team selection for six straight years, may be at his best when opponents have the ball. Surely the league's only player who routinely throws head fakes on defense, Payton is a master at juking as if to double-team, then dropping back like a free safety to intercept a pass. "I think one reason he's so frustrating to play against is that he gets it done on both ends," says Maxwell. "He scores on you and men turns right around and starts playing some of the best defense in the NBA."

Perhaps because skills like shrewdly running the break and sealing off passing lanes fly beneath the highlight-show radar. Payton is not fully appreciated, even at this stage in his career. Philadelphia 76ers coach Larry Brown coached Payton at the Olympic qualifying tournament in Puerto Rico last summer. Though he had seen Payton play innumerable times, Brown still walked away with a heightened regard for the player who, in all likelihood, will direct the next Dream Team. "As good as I thought he was, he's better," says Brown "As good a defender as I thought he was he's better. As tough a competitor as I thought he was, he's tougher."

Payton has a competitive fire that rages fiercely enough to trigger four alarms. Maxwell recalls that in his earlier days, whenever he was about to play the Sonics, he would tell his wife to write a check to the league office because it was a given that Payton would goad him into a technical foul. When Seattle faced Houston in a preseason game, Payton turned on the charm for Rockets guard Steve Francis. Before the opening tap he planted a mocking kiss on Francis's cheek and whispered in his ear, "Here we go." For the duration of the game, Francis was besieged by a hail of sweet nothings—"punk-ass rookie bitch" being the lone printable one—every time he touched the ball. Says Seattle center Greg Foster, a teammate of Payton's at Skyline High in Oakland, "For as long as I've known Gary, he's been getting a mental edge like that." Sure enough Francis made only 4 of 15 shots and committed six turnovers.

"I'm always gonna be talkin'," says Payton, the league leader in technical fouls last season. "It's nothing personal, but it's at the point where if I change people will say, 'Oh, he'; soft now.' That ain't never gonna happen like that."

With Payton, any game of cards, any shooting drill, any PlayStation encounter invariably becomes a challenge to his manhood. "You can see two ants crawling down the street, and you ask Gary, 'Which one is going to win?' " says Payton's former Seattle teammate David Wingate, now a reserve for the New York Knicks. "If his ant loses, he'll mess around and try to find another one that he can get back into the race with. That's his personality. That's what gets him going." Adds Baker, "Sometimes I think the concept of double or nothing was invented especially for Gary."

This near pathological aversion to losing helps explain why Payton has missed only two games due to injury in his entire career and why he's blown up at Westphal several times this year for sitting him in the fourth quarter of blowouts. He claims he gets his inner fortitude from his father, Al, a man whose license plate reads MR.MEAN and who still calls to chastise his son after watching Sonics games on the tube. Payton also credits his upbringing in Oakland for instilling in him a copious measure of badass. "No one gives you anything there," he says. "You learned that you can be friends before the game and after the game. But once the game starts, it's all about business. No jive. That's Oak-town in a nutshell, and that's one reason I love it and go back to visit every summer."

At first blush, anyway, Payton is everything Seattle is not: brash, intense, in-your-face. But with Ken Griffey Jr. on his way out of town and Alex Rodriguez likely to follow soon, now more than ever the Emerald City is Payton's place. His snarling face is plastered on billboards, his jersey is the most popular piece of apparel not made of flannel, and an English professor at Washington recently published a book, Black Planet, devoted almost entirely to his infatuation with Payton. "I was in Seattle for about a minute," says Barry, "and it was clear that G's the man here."

Payton has returned Seattle's embrace. He has every intention of finishing his career with the franchise that chose him second in the 1990 draft and asserts that he's "real comfortable" in the country's upper-left corner. While Payton cottons to neither the coffee culture nor the rain-tapering-to-showers climate of Seattle, a number of his friends have followed him there from Oakland, and he loves nothing more man to invite his pals aboard his 80-foot yacht, The Glove, and cruise Elliot Bay. "Because of how I am on the court, people think I'm wild and crazy," he says. "But really, I'm a kick-back guy, so Seattle suits me fine."

A five-time All-Star with a gold medal from the 1996 Olympics, Payton has but one professional goal left to accomplish. Though he's in the throes of the best year of his career, he knows the meter's running. "I want that ring," he says, "and I honestly think we have the guys here to do it."

Payton's undersized team prevailing in a conference that includes the Spurs, Blazers and Lakers? The conventional wisdom, to borrow a phrase, says "that ain't never gonna happen like that." But as his Sonics teammates can attest, when the team's hustler of a point guard vows to run the table, it's a bad idea to bet against him.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#492 » by NO-KG-AI » Mon May 17, 2010 3:18 am

Semi,

Garnett was already as big as Tyson Chandler at that point, and was an insane athlete that could guard the wing full time. About 10x as intelligent as well.

7' guy with wing athleticism...

On D Rating:

Anyway, Kobe was 104 the year before, and 105 the year after, and 98 for this year.. I'm tending to think his defense was a notch up this year because this was the year Shaq was dominant defensively in the paint as well, he had a stellar 95 rating.

Unless Kobe just slacked the years after and before, and I don't think he did, but there is only so much impact he can have on his own as a wing.

No other player on the Wolves had better than a 102 rating(joe Smith and Dean Garret, a scrub that didn't play much), and Garnett's was 99.

The worst rating on the Lakers team was Tyronn Lue with 103. The best ones on the Wolves were as good as the worst on the Lakers.

For comparison, 4 guys were above Kobe(Shaq, Horry, and Salley/Knight that didn't play much), 1 was tied with him (Ron Harper), AC Green and Devean George were 1 point behind, Rick Fox and Brian Shaw were at 100, and Derek Fisher was at 101, with 102(the worst rating on the team for anyone playing significant minutes).

The only one lower than 102 were Tyronn Lue who played 8 games.

Defensive rating is heavily tied to how well your teammates perform, and that was an outstanding defensive team, in part due to Kobe, but I feel Garnett was a much bigger factor in the Wolves not being a laughably bad defense.

(drza noted, and I believe emailed the site, but on basketball reference, you can lose points or gain them on D-rating even when you miss games, because your rating is tied to your teams, etc.)

Also, the Wolves were 8th on offense and the Lakers were 5th, and separated by 1.2 points. Don't think it's an argument that KG got to play around more offensive talent than Kobe. Take this one for what you will, but the Wolves were big time over achievers on both ends.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#493 » by semi-sentient » Mon May 17, 2010 3:29 am

That's acceptable, and I think I need to look more closely at Payton as well. I don't have much problem dropping Kobe down below both Garnett and Payton, but I don't think there's a big gap there either way. It's definitely hard to gauge these guys without watching them play a lot, and let's face it, a lot of detail is lost 10 years after the fact. I really had no plans on even bringing Kobe into the mix for 99-00 until I started rewatching some of those old games, and then I started to realize just how much I'd forgotten.

Where does that leave Malone though? He's the only guy that wasn't recognized as a great two-way player.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#494 » by Gongxi » Mon May 17, 2010 3:36 am

Baller 24 wrote:I've narrowed it down to a top 6, I guess I'll think about the last spot as the new thread starts and I hear more arguments, but it's basically Shaq, Zo, Malone, KG, Payton, and Bryant. I can't really see any compelling arguments that make me favor any other player that season.


Are you just counting out Duncan because he was injured down the stretch? That might come down to the distinction between him and Garnett for my fifth spot, but I think he is in the conversation.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#495 » by Baller 24 » Mon May 17, 2010 3:43 am

That article that I posted helped get an insight on how good of a player Payton actually was at the time, and gain an understand of what he was trying to achieve, and offered some information we hadn't known about him. As for Malone, I think throughout his entire career he wasn't necessarily noted as a solid two-way player, but I don't think he deserves a "knock" on his defensively, he wasn't a really bad defensive player, nor was he a really good defensive player, above average I'd say for sure.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#496 » by Baller 24 » Mon May 17, 2010 3:45 am

Gongxi wrote:
Are you just counting out Duncan because he was injured down the stretch? That might come down to the distinction between him and Garnett for my fifth spot, but I think he is in the conversation.


Ehh...I think Duncan deserves to be up there, but him not being there period during the playoffs hurts his changes more than anything IMO. KG was actually there and he even played--despite not having such a not-so-great series, he was still there, and I think a lot of the KG supporters have shown that his impact was still every bit as good in the playoffs.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#497 » by NO-KG-AI » Mon May 17, 2010 3:47 am

I dunno, it's rough.

I have Shaq as a clear number 1.

After that, it's Zo and KG for me, and I really like Zo's efficiency, and how well he played both ends, but Garnett isn't really that far off of him, and though Terrell BRandon was really nice, it was a two man show that year, Wally is the only other person that was over a 15 PER(15.4 to be exact), while the Heat had 5 other guys over 15 besides Zo, and much better defensive personnel as well.

Zo had a longer post season, but the thing that gets me is that the teams were only 2 games apart, and I think a big part of it is that Zo was at 3.9 fouls per game, and as a result only played 34.8 minutes, where as KG played a full 40. That's a pretty big difference to me, KG was able to stay on the floor a lot more, and I think as a result, his team performed better than it should have and was a big reason why he was number 2 in MVP voting.

After that it's Malone, Kobe and Payton. I'm really feeling Payton as my 4th guy at this point, and Kobe might sneak into my top 5, when before fully examining it, I didn't think he had a shot. Webber as a darkhorse.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#498 » by Baller 24 » Mon May 17, 2010 4:24 am

As for RS, I think Payton has the easy nod over Bryant---they had the exact same number of DPOY votes too. Played in exactly 901 more minutes than him, played in 16 more games, was higher in MVP voting, scored more points, more double-doubles, more triple-doubles, grabbed more rebounds (career high in rebound rate), dished out more assists, picked more passes, made more threes (led the league), and in terms of TS%, it was in favor of Bryant's by 1% (.535 v .546). Did all of that while playing elite defense, he was clearly the better offensive player throughout the season, but the playoffs is where it really gets interesting. Payton had a good stretch, and great outing (forced a Game 5 against the Jazz, had a triple double of 35/11/10 with 6 steals), but he obviously had the lesser talent, in which it was nothing to write home about, compared to the team he lost too against. But it all comes down to playoffs...Kobe in the playoffs played really good, helped big time in the championship run, but was it enough to overcome Payton's dominance in the RS, and still having a fantastic playoff outing while doing everything he could for his team to advance further?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#499 » by semi-sentient » Mon May 17, 2010 4:34 am

Yeah, that's the real question.

Does it really come down to Kobe and Payton though? Personally, I think Payton could go as high as #3. He certainly has the strongest case since he's great on both ends.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#500 » by Baller 24 » Mon May 17, 2010 4:35 am

semi-sentient wrote:Yeah, that's the real question.

Does it really come down to Kobe and Payton though? Personally, I think Payton could go as high as #3. He certainly has the strongest case since he's great on both ends.


In your opinion who does it come down to? I'm down to move Payton up, but I need some evidence for KG/Malone going down on my list.
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