Retro POY '99-00 (Voting Complete)

[ronnymac2]

So far from the arguments I've seen my list will be (so far):

1. Allen Iverson
2. Alonzo
3. Malone
4. Payton
5. Garnett

For the talk of Garnett laying an egg in the playoffs his playoff PER was still better than Kobe's.

umm... Shaq ?

Technically, he's right. I don't think anybody has really argued for Shaq in any thread regarding the 2000 POY. haha

[Manuel Calavera]

It was a joke about that one guy who voted for Allen Iverson as the MVP, the only guy in the entire league that voted that way. (I'll update it with Shaq as the #1 later )

[Manuel Calavera]

That says alot about PER and it's many problems. DRob shot 37% FG/46% TS, yet still had a 25.6 PER in the playoffs, #4 overall.

He averaged 24/14/2.5/3(blocks)/~2(steals) shot over 10 free throws a game and converted on 76% of those. That's extremely efficient.

[Baller 24]

RE: KG in 2005. I personally think KG's RS performance was strictly VERY good, probably would have won another MVP if his team success was on par. And I liked what NOKGAI said regarding that, Duncan just wasn't that. So with that in mind, Duncan's out.

As for Zo v Malone, I think I've been convinced enough by David Stern to put Zo ahead of Malone, so Zo's got my 2nd place vote, with Malone following at 3rd. I've got GP at forth, and it comes down to KG or Kobe for 5th, I've got KG slightly ahead, but I need to hear more arguments before I submit my official list.

[Baller 24]

Also guys, if Shaq and Zo end up 1 and 2, was this really the last season where two Centers were the top 2 players in the league?

[NO-KG-AI]

What's the argument for Payton above KG exactly? I can hear Malone and Zo, though I think KG was the second best player in the RS over Zo by a bit, and over MAlone by a noticable margin, and I don't think MAlone was so amazing in the playoffs that it overrides it.

But Payton?

[bastillon]

Garnett vs Duncan regarding the injury: Garnett didn't play because his team missed the playoffs; Duncan didn't play because he was injured. in the fantasy draft Garnett would have more value considering that he was healthy come playoff time, he just didn't have the right team, but there was no question he can dominate as proven the year before. as for Duncan ? what value does the guy have in terms of winning a championship when you know he's not gonna play in the most important moment of the season ? if it's not zero, it's close to that. I would expect no wiser question from JB. no disrespect, but your arbitrary criterions are sometimes just dumb.

I can't wait when we get to Jordan years and sp6r is gonna mock the crap out of you

[Baller 24]

What's the argument for Payton above KG exactly? I can hear Malone and Zo, though I think KG was the second best player in the RS over Zo by a bit, and over MAlone by a noticable margin, and I don't think MAlone was so amazing in the playoffs that it overrides it.

But Payton?

During the regular season I think KG gets only the slight edge over Payton IMO, exactly same PER, they played with similar talent levels, I thought they were pretty much neck and neck as you can get. And I actually was debating who to pick higher, but when AUF posted the All-NBA Team and All-NBA Defensive Team voting results, there has to be a reason why the coaches voted GP (by a clear margin of 46 points) 2nd place behind Shaq in All-NBA Team voting, and he had a pretty solid lead at 1st place over everyone in the All-NBA Defensive Teams. That was one of the things, plus the fact that he played better in the playoffs, until then though I had them neck and neck.

Maybe I'm overrating Malone a bit and I think I'm going to have to agree with Semi here and put Payton third, but I'm not sure exactly yet, let me compare KG and Malone and see if I'm really overrating him.

[An Unbiased Fan]

What's the argument for Payton above KG exactly? I can hear Malone and Zo, though I think KG was the second best player in the RS over Zo by a bit, and over MAlone by a noticable margin, and I don't think MAlone was so amazing in the playoffs that it overrides it.

But Payton?

GP was #2 in All-NBA votes, #1 in All-D votes, the #1 PG in eff-diff, and was a better playoff performer.

KG had a solid RS, but I'm leaning toward putting him at #6. Shaq & Zo are both 1 & 2 at this point. GP & Malone both had comparable RS, and superior PS to KG. Kobe was a little behind in the RS, but had a much better playoff run which more than made up for the gap, IMO. The kicker is that KG was #3 at PF for eff-diff, while all the other top candiates were #1 or #2(Zo) at their positions.

KG's defense impact wasn't quite there yet for me either. Minny was #25 in the NBA with an opposing FG% of 48%. #27 in the NBA in opposing Paint scoring 51.8%, and #25 in outside scoring 45.7%. Even opposing PFs shot 46%.

[Manuel Calavera]

What's the argument for Payton above KG exactly? I can hear Malone and Zo, though I think KG was the second best player in the RS over Zo by a bit, and over MAlone by a noticable margin, and I don't think MAlone was so amazing in the playoffs that it overrides it.

But Payton?

During the regular season I think KG gets only the slight edge over Payton IMO, exactly same PER, they played with similar talent levels, I thought they were pretty much neck and neck as you can get. And I actually was debating who to pick higher, but when AUF posted the All-NBA Team and All-NBA Defensive Team voting results, there has to be a reason why the coaches voted GP (by a clear margin of 46 points) 2nd place behind Shaq in All-NBA Team voting, and he had a pretty solid lead at 1st place over everyone in the All-NBA Defensive Teams. That was one of the things, plus the fact that he played better in the playoffs, until then though I had them neck and neck.

Maybe I'm overrating Malone a bit and I think I'm going to have to agree with Semi here and put Payton third, but I'm not sure exactly yet, let me compare KG and Malone and see if I'm really overrating him.

The reason Payton was ahead of KG in All-NBA voting etc was because there was little competition at that spot, KG ranked higher in MVP voting, which to me is a lot more telling.

[bastillon]

there seems to be an argument against Garnett based on his PS performance:

Garnett's opps answer me this:

1)who was responsible for Blazers' collapse offensively against the Wolves ? [by my estimations over 4 less pts per100poss vs Wolves than against Lakers + Jazz] possible answers: Wally, Brandon, rookie Rasho, Malik Sealy, Garnett, Flip Saunders, Joe Smith, Kobe Bryant (his impact was so immense that Blazers shot worse before ever getting to WCFs). consider Sheed's 13 PPG in 42 MPG vs Wolves and 19 PPG in 36 MPG (over 22 per42) vs rest of the PS opps.

2)how does 8.8 APG correspond offensively with impact ? you can say anything you want about points, but big averaging almost double digit assists is like PG averaging 15-17, because of all the hockey assists etc. doesn't that vastly make up for the gap in scoring that was created when Garnett shot 44% TS ?

you don't have to shoot well to make impact. in fact, Jason Kidd was handed the top5 in 2002 and he was shooting what, 3% TS better ? (on lesser volume, make no mistake) Garnett meanwhile had SIGNIFICANTLY more defensive impact and did just as much with his passing (in fact more since Kidd averaged similar volume with higher TOs). at the same time, Kidd was absurdly outplayed by Garnett in the RS, especially in scoring/shooting department. somehow Kidd wasn't knocked for his PO performance, but Garnett is. "Kidd can make an impact without ever scoring a single point" - I get that, but that's the exact beauty of a 7'1 defensive-minded pass-first PF (which Garnett calls himself) - defense and passing are KG's main assets and they always have been. it's not like Wolves had any business being in the top5 offense - it was his passing that anchored them, not 20 PPG.

after all, Garnett's impact was still immense in the playoffs, because Blazers still didn't crush them and in fact, barely won those games. it's not like they were losing by 18 pts or more in 3 straight games. oh, wait, that'd be Karl Malone.

short version: despite crap shooting, KG still impacted the game in ridiculous way and his team stayed competitive against the TOP2 team in the league.

as for his (apparently dubious) production:

Code: Select all

              MPG   PPG   TS%   APG   TOV   RPG   BPG   SPG
 00 Malone   39.2  23.8  0.53   4.0   2.6   8.2   0.8   0.8
 00 Garnett  42.8  18.8  0.44   8.8   2.8  10.8   0.8   1.3
 00 Shaq     45.7  25.9  0.55   4.3   2.7  12.4   1.9   0.1
 02 Shaq     39.0  21.4  0.49   3.2   3.0  12.2   3.0   0.6
 05 Duncan   40.7  20.6  0.47   2.1   2,4  14.1   2.1   0.4
 07 Duncan   37.8  18.3  0.48   3.8   2.8  11.5   2.3   1.3

Malone and Shaq vs Blazers, Shaq 02 vs Timmy, Duncan 05 vs Sheed, Duncan 07 vs Cavs.
what you can see is that several award-winning bigs and a guy who is likely to be in the TOP3 this year were on par with KG in this series. yeah, he was outperformed in scoring department but made up for that in assists.

again, this is pure production, without ever touching defensive impact aside from boxscore's rebs/stls/blks combo, the defensive impact that was immense and caused Blazers to struggle in the playoffs. KG impacted the game as much as you can in the playoffs without scoring efficiently. I'm gonna argue for Russell a lot in the 60s so I don't think you can make a case that KG had poor playoffs, not at all.

the fact remains that Wolves were ridiculous overachievers - they had no business being a 50-win team (1 borderline all-star, rookie Wally and Rasho, Malik Sealy... c'mon now) and more importantly in this case, should've been absolutely eaten alive by the Blazers.

they weren't, because of their defense. I'm gonna give credit to KG for that. sue me and my discarding of Wally/Rasho/Brandon/Saunders on defense. now it IS possible that they stopped Blazers from scoring because of these guys and KG just seemed to have lucked out by playing with great defensive teammates. it IS possible that Wally stepped up and played the series of his life on that end and anchored their wing defense while at the same time giving help in the paint. it IS possible that Rasho stepped up and replaced Tim Duncan in the playoffs since he was injured and Rasho felt like NBA was missing something. it IS possible that Saunders invented a great defensive scheme that he had never used before and didn't want to reveal it in his later years, keeping it secret like a Holy Grail. it's ALL possible. still, I'll take my chances - I remain sceptic about rookie Szczerbiak on defense. damn me.

now if Garnett managed to make such an impact that even without scoring efficiently, the Wolves were still very much competitive against the Blazers, I'm gonna give him credit for playing well in the playoffs. I'd still take Garnett 18/11/9 on 44% TS while keeping his team competitive than Malone's 21/9/4 on 53% being blown out and almost swept.

[An Unbiased Fan]

The reason Payton was ahead of KG in All-NBA voting etc was because there was little competition at that spot, KG ranked higher in MVP voting, which to me is a lot more telling.

Actually, the guard spot was the most competitive. 4 guards had 400+ points that year. 3 forwards had 400+ points, and Hill had mid 345.

Zo is the guy who got really screwed playing behind Shaq.

[Silver Bullet]

Damn.... First time in ages I'm rooting against Kobe -

[Baller 24]

Damn.... First time in ages I'm rooting against Kobe -

Why?

[Silver Bullet]

Damn.... First time in ages I'm rooting against Kobe -

Why?

I want Nash to get that ring - so people can finally stop disrespecting the poor guy.

[Baller 24]

I want Nash to get that ring - so people can finally stop disrespecting the poor guy.

Touche

[Gongxi]

Just for posterity's sake, I'm going to say that throughout this thing I'm going mostly by on-court production, with games in December mattering as much as games in March, and games in the playoffs meaning only about 50% more than games in the regular season. Which is to say: if you play 20 playoff games and 82 regular season games, your regular season still accounts for roughly 2/3rds of where I'm placing you. Why? Because a 20 game sample size pales in comparison to 82 or, together, 102 games.

Also, I don't much care about how well your team did. It's basketball, not ping pong- one player can't dictate whether an entire team wins or loses.

The quintessential Shaq season. 28/13/4 with 3 blocks, and all the team success anyone could ever want of anyone. Malone is still the 'closest' competitor, but it's really not close. Oh, he averaged 38 and 17 in the Finals. 38 and 17.

Speaking of Malone, here we have the last of his prime years. Played every game- although that type of tenacity is par for the course for him and will help keep him highly rated on my lists for at least a decade- went for 26 and 10 on great TS%, with a PER of 27.1 and kept up his standards into the playoffs.

I'm going talk about Duncan and Mourning together at this point, because when it comes to impact, they had pretty similar years, but Mourning was just slightly better throughout. Both were defensive anchors, but Mourning was better and indeed rightfully won the DPOY. Both were 20/10 guys (Duncan 23/12, Mourning only 22/10), but Mourning was an echelon ahead in efficiency: 60% TS vs. 56%, and 2.7 TO/G to 3.3. But then Duncan got injured and missed the last 8 games of the regular season and 4 games (all of them) in the playoffs where Mourning played in 89 of 92 Heat games that year. And Gary Payton (!!!) was so close that this injury leapfrogs Duncan.

Payton had a strange year because it wasn't his definitive year, but it was his best. When you think of Gary Payton, you think of him and Kemp facing off valiantly against the 72-win Bulls in the Finals. You think of him and George Karl arguing but finding compromises and winning. This Payton was the one playing on an average team with a disintegrating Vin Baker and a super young Rashard Lewis. Oh and Slam Dunk champ Brent Barry. Still, a great season: 24/9/7. It's actually kind of shocking for me remembering that he had that type of year. Him and Ray Allen with a little mini-renaissance himself in Seattle years later- it always kinda slips my mind.

Now here's the sticking point. Duncan and Garnett (with 23/11/5) are again near production clones, but Duncan has the missed time. He also produced with David Robinson as a partner, something I don't like to defer to, but when the results are so close... Duncan tumbles again.

Hill had a wonderful season at 26/7/5, Garnett another great season with 23/11/5, and Kobe had his first season as a legit All-NBA player, but none of them make the cut. Chris Webber is there again around 9ish but...yeah, a notable season- enough that I feel compelled to at least mention his name here- but not notable enough.

1- Shaquille O'Neal
2- Karl Malone
3- Alonzo Mourning
4- Gary Payton
5- Kevin Garnett

[Baller 24]

I think I'm ready to make my picks, I'm tried of holding out on this. Well I originally had Shaq at first, Malone and Zo fighting for second and third, Payton at forth, and KG and Bryant fighting for Fifth. I've had enough evidence to convince me that Zo is second here, and Malone third. Payton is forth, I've talked about him in the Retro POY thread, and this current one, and why I have my reasons for him over Garnett.

As for KG and Bryant, I'm going with Garnett, I think he had the obvious better RS over Bryant, by a good margin, was just as solid defensively. Playoffs hurt his case, but I don't think Bryant's championship run numbers look that good for me to actually disregard the obvious RS margin Garnett has over Bryant (Plus him missing those 16 games doesn't look good---during those games the Lakers were 12-4 too). Anyways, Garnett it is, I like bastillion and NOKGAI's responses regarding KG's playoff performance, even though he didn't shoot too well, he impacted tremendously, and played all other aspects of his game in a very solid way.

1) Shaquille O'Neal
2) Alonzo Mourning
3) Karl Malone
4) Gary Payton
5) Kevin Garnett

[ronnymac2]

Okay, so officially.....

Duncan and Hill are out because they were injured for the playoffs. Duncan would have probably been second on my list if he was healthy for the playoffs and performed like he normally does in the playoffs.

Kidd is off as well. He wasn't his usual explosive, quick self in the playoffs. His ankle injury really robbed him of some of his effectiveness upon his return. I admire his guts, and he accomplished a lot this season, but he can't make my list.


I am saying this with a somewhat legit concern.....if somebody doesn't know about or remember Shaq from 2000...here is my reasoning for him being first.

I think he was the best player in the league. Offensively, he was at his absolute best. He was confident in in the playoffs with his hooks and jumpers, so his game opened up a little more. He learned the triangle really well, and though he was one of the league's best passing C's since his 2nd year in the NBA, he really got to show off his passing ability in Phil's system. He led all C's in assists, too. He ran the floor well, which enabled the Lakers to be able to play at any pace. Yet, they could always control the pace of the game with Shaq's ability to score in the half-court and draw fouls. Defensively, from beginning to end, he was dominant. Every part of defense was a strength for Shaq, with the excpeption of the pick-n-roll.

As for my tiebreakers.....he dominated them, too. First in PER. He led the league in scoring and field goal percentage (1 of only 3 players post-shot-clock to do that), was second in rebounding, third in blocks, and was the MVP. He had the greatest team success with a finals MVP and title. He had a historical finals with 38/17, including scoring at least 30 in every game and 40 three times. He took 39 ft's in one finals game, a record. He had a dominant playoffs overall.

The next 4 spots come down to Garnett, Mourning, Malone, Payton, Bryant, Carter, Iverson, Robinson, and Reggie Miller.


Surprisingly, no Blazers or Knicks. Both teams made the conference finals, but did so on the strength of team build and making plays by committee (all teams do this, but these teams did without a real superstar). Ewing, Pippen, Houston, Spree, and Sheed had good seasons though.

I think Robinson, both this year and the next, is basically like Shaq from 2006. Both are amazing and do what they need to do as the 2nd best player to get things done. Both have massive value for their team. I don't think either could really carry a team though anymore. Plus, Robinson ability to score wasn't too great in the playoffs (though his D was still etite).

I'm eliminating Vince. I don't like rookies, and I don't like playoff rookies. Vince had never been to the playoffs, and it showed against NY. He didn't play too well. He was still making his game complete at this point.

I'm also eliminating Iverson. He didn't have the statistical domination in certain categories or the team success he had in the year prior. He wasn't quite as good in the playoffs, either.

Actually, scratch that. He's not eliminated yet. He was still devastating one vs. one. He's still in it.

I want to point out the season by Dikembe Mutombo. He got screwed. He got no accolades that season because his team sucked ass. He was still arguably the best defensive player in the league though. He was first in rebounding and second in shot blocking. I believe he led the league in TS%. Scored well enough. He should have gotten some accolades. He shouldn't be POY or anything, but he deserves some mention, just because he got no credit that year.

[ronnymac2]

Now.....here me out about Reggie Miller. I'm not saying he definitely deserves to be in the top 5. I'm not even sure about my top 5 yet; this is just to get his name in the discussion.

The Pacers had the best record in the East that year with 56 wins. They mainly did this with their offense, which was rated first in the entire league. Reggie was only .1 points per game away from Jalen Rose for the team lead, and while Jalen also handed out more assists than Reggie, Reggie was still the primary offense weapon on that team, and the best weapon on that team. He bettered Jalen in OWS, offensive rating (118, by far the best on the team for players playing significant minutes), TS% (by 5%), and Efg%. Reggie was the closeout guy, too. He was the clutch guy. He made the offense work with his ability to let others flourish, his GOAT ability to come off screens, his 41% shooting from 3, and his crafty ability to get to the line. He is merely solid at everything else.

He is more than the sum of his stats, but in everything other than scoring, his production is still pedestrian, and that does count as a negative, especially against his very good competition here.


I want to get to his playoffs now though. Reggie, as always, upped his game in the playoffs. How is 24 pgg on almost 60% TS over a 22 game sample? He shot the ball incredibly well. His PER went up in the playoffs, and he amassed 3.3 OWS over the 22 games.

In the first round, against his successor-to-be in Ray Allen, he dropped 41 points in the deciding fifth game of the series. He dropped 40 the next game to start the series against Allen Iverson and one of the better defenses in the league, and finished them in game 6 with 25 points.

Then, against another great defensive team that liked to slow games down to a crawl in the Knicks, he played well enough to at least keep HCA throughout the series. Then in game 6 at MSG, he torched the Knicks for 34 points (5 rebounds and 4 steals, too). He didn't allow a game 7. He got his team to the finals.

Aside from an awful game 1, Reggie played very well in the finals against an excellent defensive team in the Lakers. His team lost to a superior team. Indy still fought hard in that series, and Reggie made some moments interesting.

It's just a thought. I know a lot of posters here think Reggie is overrated in general. I know that you can't just discount his relative lack of raw production in other areas of the game. It's just a thought though......