Retro POY '97-98 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '97-98. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1998.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1998.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1998.html

Topics for '97-98

-Jordan's final year (we'll pretend the Washington years never happened)
-Back to back finals for the Jazz
-Greatest Twin Towers in history comes together in SA

[semi-sentient]

Some candidates...

1997-98 Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player    GP   MIN    PTS     TS%     REB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV   WS    PER
=============================================================================
Jordan    82   38.8   28.7   .533    5.8   3.5   1.7   0.5   2.3   15.8  25.2
Malone    81   37.4   27.0   .597   10.3   3.9   1.2   0.9   3.0   16.4  27.9
Payton    82   38.4   19.2   .544    4.6   8.3   2.3   0.2   2.8   12.5  21.6
Duncan    82   39.1   21.1   .577   11.9   2.7   0.7   2.5   3.4   12.8  22.6
Shaq      60   36.3   28.3   .587   11.4   2.4   0.7   2.4   2.9   10.2  28.8
D-Rob     73   33.7   21.6   .581   10.6   2.7   0.9   2.6   2.8   13.8  27.8
Mutombo   82   35.6   13.4   .584   11.5   1.0   0.4   3.4   2.1   10.8  19.8

1997-98 Post Season

Code: Select all

Player    GP   MIN    PTS     TS%     REB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV   WS    PER
=============================================================================
Jordan     21  41.5   32.4   .545    5.1   3.5   1.5   0.6   2.1   4.8   28.1
Malone     20  39.8   26.3   .534   10.9   3.4   1.0   1.0   3.0   3.0   24.2
Payton     10  42.8   24.0   .585    3.4   7.0   1.8   0.1   2.6   1.5   23.0
Duncan      9  41.6   20.7   .559    9.0   1.9   0.6   2.6   2.8   1.2   20.2
Shaq       13  38.5   30.5   .604   10.2   2.9   0.5   2.6   3.3   2.1   31.0
D-Rob       9  39.2   19.4   .496   14.1   2.6   1.2   3.3   2.8   1.5   24.1
Mutombo     4  34.0    8.0   .515   12.8   0.3   0.3   2.3   2.0   0.3   14.3

1997-98 Awards Breakdown

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Player        MVP Rank    DPOY Rank    All-NBA Team    All-Defensive Team
=========================================================================
Jordan        1           4            1st             1st
Malone        2           -            1st             1st
Payton        3           2            1st             1st
Duncan        5           5            1st             2nd
Shaq          4           -            1st             ---
D-Rob         7           3            2nd             2nd
Mutombo       -           1            3rd             1st

[Sedale Threatt]

Here comes the first of about nine first-place votes for Mike by me.

[Doctor MJ]

Here comes the first of about nine first-place votes for Mike by me.

Yeah, that's the number I have down for him as well. One of the things that really stood out when I first started doing year-by-year analysis. Will have to see if I get talked down by other posters though.

[ronnymac2]

That game 6 really impresses me. I haven't really looked at this year yet, but I highly doubt Jordan won't be my number one.

Duncan is just a rookie this year, which is interesting.

[Dr Positivity]

You are now entering... THE JORDAN ZONE

[Baller 24]

Unless someone changes my mind, I think I've got my top 5 ready, I just need to decide what order to put it in after number 1 and 2.

[Sedale Threatt]

I'm thinking MJ, Mailman, Shaq, Payton, then either Duncan or Robinson. Probably Duncan, even though the advanced stats favor Robinson. I just thought he had a bigger role on the team at that point, playing more minutes.

[Baller 24]

I didn't think this was really all that hard for this season, but anyways here is my ballot:

1) Michael Jordan, I think it's pretty self-explanatory, solid overall season, carried the Bulls when Pippen was out and only played 44 games throughout the season, solid in the playoffs, and obviously that shot in Game 6 is just the icing.

2) Karl Malone, I was debating for Shaq here if he only played more games, he could have actually been my choice here, but anyways Kudos to Malone, very dominant season and post-season, going to the Finals helps his case the most, especially when Stockton at his age is on the decline.

3) Shaquille O'Neal, awesome and dominant all-around season, probably would have been my choice for 2nd if he played a whole seasons worth of games, absolutely dominant in the post-season, again just an amazing all-around season, and the fact that I'm putting him here even though he played 60 games is pretty astonishing and speaks for his impact.

4) Tim Duncan, it's funny this is Duncan's first season and I think I've had him in my top 5 for pretty much every season except for like 3. In Robinson's absence the Spurs were 6-3, he played excellent in the playoffs, top 5 in MVP voting, and Robinson's efficiency like aways dropped in the playoffs.

5) Gary Payton, excellent season, got destroyed by the Lakers in the playoffs, but despite this he was in the midst of his Prime, playing solid defense, had a great play-off outing, and outside of these 5, I can't think of anyone else that deserves it over them.

[semi-sentient]

Rankings moved to Page 4...

[Baller 24]

Just something to note, Shaq was 30.5/10.2 on a TS% of .604 in the playoffs. PER of 31.0

[Gongxi]

Just for posterity's sake, I'm going to say that throughout this thing I'm going mostly by on-court production, with games in December mattering as much as games in March, and games in the playoffs meaning only about 50% more than games in the regular season. Which is to say: if you play 20 playoff games and 82 regular season games, your regular season still accounts for roughly 2/3rds of where I'm placing you. Why? Because a 20 game sample size pales in comparison to 82 or, together, 102 games.

Also, I don't much care about how well your team did. It's basketball, not ping pong- one player can't dictate whether an entire team wins or loses.

And here we are! The Jordan years! Not those Washington Wizards Jordan years either, but the real thing. Michael **** Jordan winning championships and killing the dreams of folks from Portland to New York and everywhere in between- especially in Salt Lake City and Cleveland. So he's the best player, right? Not this year, my friends, not to me. There's three suspects in this drama: who overthrew Jordan?

Suspect #1: The MDE and, in 1997-98, the most dominating in the games he played....Shaquille O'Neal! Shaq played like John Candy in search of cake, like a Sex in the City girl looking for shoes, like Lindsay Lohan playing for a drink, like OJ with a knife trying to get to an ex-wife. He was that good. 28/11 in the regular season with 2 blocks, a league-leading 28.8 PER. Which he bumped up to 31.0 in the playoffs, I might add. The problem? He only played 60 regular season games. Remember this, it's gonna be something that keeps him down for the whole middle part of the 90s.

Suspect #2: The defending MVP, the best player on the back-to-back Western Conference champs....Karl Malone, everyone! Let's give him a round of applause! Okay, let's talk about Karl. The anti-Shaq in that he played 81 games this year, and 27/10 with great D isn't too far behind even a playing-basketball-Shaq. Just about everything you want in team success is there for the Mailman. Was he clutch? That's so arbitrary and subjective, but all we really know is that he wasn't as clutch as Jordan. That's no knock- who was?

Suspect #3: Freshly back from last year's season ending injury, the Naval Academy's finest...David Robinson, give it up! In the new, highly-formidable twin towers scheme of the Spurs, Robinson was the better tower this year, which is saying a lot since Duncan was All-NBA first team as a rookie. 22/11 with great defense- even if he lost his explosiveness- on great efficiency throughout the season. Except for those 9 games he missed. In a race this tight, that matters- as do his pedestrian playoff numbers.

So who made Jordan's entry into this project a let down? Karl Malone. Jordan slides in after him, and then Shaq and Robinson follow him up at #3 and #4.

Let's compare folks for the #5 spot:

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Player         PPG   APG   RPG    TS%             
Grant Hill    21.1   6.0   7.1    .520
Tim Duncan    21.1   2.7   11.9   .577
Gary Payton   19.2   8.3   4.6    .544
Tim Hardaway  18.9   8.3   3.7    .530   


People who would've been mentioned had they played more games include folks like Mourning and Pippen. In the end, I think it's pretty easy, knowing what we know now, using hindsight, to pick Duncan out of this group, but I think it's actually between Payton and Hill. Duncan was able to play at such a high level so early because teams were still focused on Robinson, in my mind. So Grant Hill comes in at #5 for me.

1- Karl Malone
2- Michael Jordan
3- Shaquille O'Neal
4- David Robinson
5- Grant Hill

[Dr Positivity]

I was really hoping for 6 straight 1.000s for Jordan. That ended quickly.

[Optimism Prime]

Gongxi, I'm with you on the "postseason doesn't entirely determine a player's caliber"--or however you want to put it--but:

"Just about everything you want in team success is there for the Mailman."

I get that, and understand it. But are you saying that Malone having just about everything you want in team success is better than Jordan actually having it?

Personally, I think you explained your reasoning for mentioning Malone in the first-place conversation perfectly well, I'm just not convinced that the placement itself makes sense... argue the point further, please, I'd love to hear more. (And no--this isn't sarcasm--I'm genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter.)

[Optimism Prime]

I was really hoping for 6 straight 1.000s for Jordan. That ended quickly.

Of the years he was eligible, I hope--he won't be getting many votes in 93-95...

[Manuel Calavera]

I think I'm going with Malone as my #1 this year, although its really close between him and Jordan. I have Shaq right after them, the other 2 spots I don't know yet, waiting to hear what other people say.

[Doctor MJ]

Some thoughts:

Agree with what others have said, this year is a lot clearer than the last two. The dilemmas in my mind and where I currently come down on them:

-Jordan vs Malone. I really think Malone deserves strong consideration here. At this point he seems like he can impact the game in more ways than Jordan can. Much is made of Jordan's Game 6, but Malone went for 31/11/7 in that game on 65% TS. Still, I'm still leaning toward His Airness - being the effective 5 time defending champ, then picking up your game come crunch time for the win makes it tough to pick against you.

-Shaq vs Payton. It's easy to think that Shaq would be the #1 win this year if he was only healthy, but the team won 61 games this year with only partial-Shaq, and they got swept in the playoffs by a 62 win team. How much impact did he really have? Is it enough to surpass Gary Payton who played 1000 more regular season minutes lifting a team to 60+ wins after losing Kemp? Leaning toward the Glove.

-Duncan vs Robinson. At first glance it seems like Duncan's the obvious choice. This is where advanced stats really come in handy. Robinson actually led the team in Win Shares despite playing significantly less. Now should you make decisions just off of a stat like that? I wouldn't. It really hammers in though that Duncan doesn't have a glaring statistical advantage - particularly when you consider the post-season where Robinson has a decided advantage there. The big thing Duncan's got going for him is that he played much more than Robinson - which is definitely non-trivial for someone as skilled a player as Duncan. Robinson has the leadership angle though, and to me this is a big deal. The greatest long term team chemistry we've seen in the modern era begins this year, and Robinson has to get most of the credit for that. Add into that the nuances he's teaching Duncan since they're both big men - and that in my experience rookies don't have as big of an impact as their numbers say (and savvy veterans tend to have more). Leaning toward the Admiral.

[Gongxi]

Gongxi, I'm with you on the "postseason doesn't entirely determine a player's caliber"--or however you want to put it--but:

"Just about everything you want in team success is there for the Mailman."

I get that, and understand it. But are you saying that Malone having just about everything you want in team success is better than Jordan actually having it?

Of course not. In team success, Jordan gets a 29 where Malone gets a 28. I'm just saying that the big knock on Malone would be his (relative) lack of team success, but actually he still did very well in that category. Jordan obviously gets the nod in that respect. Is it enough to overcome Malone's play the rest of the year? I don't think so.

Personally, I think you explained your reasoning for mentioning Malone in the first-place conversation perfectly well, I'm just not convinced that the placement itself makes sense... argue the point further, please, I'd love to hear more. (And no--this isn't sarcasm--I'm genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter.)

Malone scored two less points a game than Jordan, but was much more efficient as a score, 60% TS to 53%. 10 rebounds and 4 assists, versus 6 and 4. He (obviously) grabbed more available rebounds for his team when he was the court, but he (shockingly) was responsible for more of his teams' assists when he he was on the floor, too. Their defense at this stage of the game only provides Jordan a slight advantage, and even that I could see being arguable. So for the regular season, we should all clearly have Malone over Jordan, right?

Okay, well let's go into the playoffs, where Jordan rises as he always does and Malone falters as he always does. Jordan: 32/5/4 on 55% TS. Malone: 26/11/3 on 53% TS. Jordan is better, but not to the extent that Malone was over the course of the longer regular season.

[Sedale Threatt]

I see some cases for Malone, but I've yet to see a case for Malone over Jordan.

I don't think the difference was especially great in the regular season. Malone has the better advanced numbers, but frankly, I'm more impressed with Jordan leading the Bulls to 62 wins -- the same at Utah -- despite missing Pippen for almost half the season. Especially considering he was still producing at a very high level.

When we get to the postseason, surprise surprise, Jordan's production rose while Malone's either stagnated (box score) or dropped (advanced).

Then the coup de grace -- Malone was mediocre to poor during the first four games of the Finals, in which Utah fell behind 3-1 despite owning home court advantage. Yes, he turned it around in Games 5 and 6, but the damage had already been done at that point.

In contrast, after an Iversonesque Game 1, Jordan:

* Scored six points in the final minute to pull out a close win in Game 2 (37 overall).
* Put up 24 in 32 minutes in the Game 3 blowout
* Scored 34 points as Chicago pulled away late in Game 4 (Pippen was great).
* Scored 16 of 45 in the fourth of Game 6, including the iconic steal-bucket sequence.

It should be noted that Pippen was limited by a back injury in this series. So, best teammate gimpy, no homecourt, but he does whatever it takes to win, while Malone didn't start to seriously exert his influence until the Jazz were already down 3-1.

Pretty convincing edge in Jordan's favor, in my opinion -- more than enough to make up a fairly small gap in the regular season.

[Gongxi]

Fairly small gap? I think you're looking at the name in those stats before you're looking at the stats.