MJ & The Draft.
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Tupik
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Re: MJ & The Draft.
All this has actually made me want LB to not come back next season. I want to be able to see how our young players can contribute, because we'll need them when we'll have cap space and start rebuilding. We absolutely need to see what they're worth to see who needs to be part of the team in years to come, and we all know this is never going to be the case with Brown as a coach.
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Walt Cronkite
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Re: MJ & The Draft.
Looks like Prof. Cronkite needs to put on a lecture.
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DY_nasty
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Re: MJ & The Draft.
When it comes to Larry Brown coming back or not, I'm completely indifferent. Its not like he won't leave next year anyways.
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Walt Cronkite
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Re: MJ & The Draft.
Larry Brown Plays Rookies:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/coa ... la01c.html --find a player in the last two decades that had talent and didn't play, much less a rookie. If you don’t want to do that, here's the list of guys that probably didn't get as many minutes as rookies compared to the success they had over their careers: Tony Massenberg, Elliot Perry, Mark Strickland, Travis Best, Fred Hoiberg, a slew of 76ers and Darko. That’s it. Outside of some of the 76ers, Travis Best is the best player there that was in a situation where he maybe should’ve gotten more minutes than he did... and he still averaged 10mpg. Let’s begin...
Spurs
Massenberg arguably should've played over Sidney Green and Dave Greenwood (in the final year of his career), but I'm thinking he wasn't very good since a year later he played 18 games for 4 different teams. I think it's fair to give LB a pass here, since a year earlier, rookies David Robinson and Sean Elliott both got 37+ mpg and the year before that (LBs first year back in the NBA) rookie Willie Anderson lead the team in minutes played while sophomore Greg Anderson finished second and another rookie, Vernon Maxwell, finished 4th.
Clippers
I'll admit to not being familiar with Elliot Perry, but statistically he had good years in his mid 20s and a last hurrah at 30. LB played guards Ron Harper, Charles Grant, Doc Rivers, Bo Kimble and Danny Young more minutes than him. Of those, I can only say that I've seen Doc and Harper play before for certain. Elliot Perry was a 6’0 pg and seems to have been a pretty average player unless his career was derailed by injuries or something.
Pacers
Mark Strickland had a nice career but didn't get many opportunities as a rookie in Indiana. He had Derrick McKey, Dale Davis and Antonio Davis all logging heavy minutes at his position. Maybe he should've played over LaSalle Thompson, John Williams and Greg Kite... maybe he wasn't ready yet. It’s worth noting that LB had Antonio Davis as a rookie and gave him the 5th most minutes on the team (behind Miller, McKey, Dale Davis and Rik Smits).
Hoiberg had to pick up minutes behind Miller, Johnson and Pierce, who were all good. Duane Ferrell also got minutes and was not good, but maybe he brought something on defense that Hoiberg wasn't ready for. Also, this is “the Mayor” Fred Hoiberg we’re talking about.
I remember Travis Best being good, but looking over his career, maybe I overrated him because I was only 10 when he was a rookie. Haywoode Workman got the backup PG minutes behind Mark Jackson. I remember him being a game manager type, probably good at defense, but statistically, he doesn’t look very good. Best still got close to 10 minutes a game, but had a huge problem turning the ball over at the time. Maybe he plays better with more minutes? Before Philadelphia, this is the best example of a young player not playing over a veteran when maybe he should’ve been.
Final Pacer of note is Erick Dampier. As a rookie in Indiana and managed to get over 1000 mp/14.6mpg, on a team that still had the Davis’ and Smits ahead of him. Smits did miss 30 games that season, so maybe things are different if that doesn’t happen.
Sixers
LB’s Philly era isn’t as cut and dry as the near decade before it. There were many rookies brought in (excluding the scrubs that were quickly out of the league or never in it) we have: Anthony Parker, Tim Thomas, Nazr Mohammed, Larry Hughes, Jumaine Jones, Todd MacCulloch, Raja Bell, Speedy Claxton, Samuel Dalembert, and John Salmons. Of those, Parker, Mohammed, McCulloch, Jones, Bell, Dalembert and Salmons got less than 10 mpg as rookies (9.4 for McCulloch). Thomas, Hughes and Claxton all played more than 20mpg, but the guys getting less than 10mpg are pretty good, so what gives?
Anthony Parker’s career was jump started in Tel Aviv, where he became one of the best Euroleague players of all time. Since then, he’s been a consistent player who’s noted for his defense. I’m not sure why he fell out of the NBA, wiki mentions that he was “largely plagued by injury”. Since he seems like an LB type player, I think it’s safe to assume that the injury excuse is probably valid. LB played Jim Jackson and Aaron McKie at his position a lot, but neither had very good seasons. Without knowing more details, I’ll concede that this is a good example of a time when LB probably should’ve played a rookie, but thought veterans would be the key to making the playoffs. They missed the playoffs and let AP slip away. Whoops.
Nazr Mohammed has, until this most recent season, never played well for Larry Brown. I don’t know if it’s personal or what, but he played him a combined 507 minutes in the first 3 seasons of his career. Last season, when everyone was shocked at how few minutes Naz was getting, he still got more minutes than his first two seasons in the league. The best explanation I can offer is that Theo Ratliff was in his prime and this was the last above average year of Geiger’s career and both of those guys were getting more than 30mpg. I’d suggest that the 50 game lockout season had something to do with it, but his minutes didn’t really increase a year later and the roster was largely the same. (In fact, he only appeared in 2 more games in year two despite his team having an additional 32. OUCH!!) Best explanation I can come up with is that something about Mohammed’s playing style rubs LB the wrong way.
Todd MacCulloch got just under 10 mpg in his rookie year. He was efficient in his limited minutes and filled in nicely for the declining Geiger. Stole minutes at the 5 from sophomore Naz.
Jumaine Jones would have the most efficient year of his career as a sophomore, but his rookie year was not so great. He had Lynch, McKie, Kukoc, Hughes, Billy Owens and Bruce Bowen ahead of him on the roster. Billy Owens wasn’t very good at this point though, so maybe Jones should’ve had some of his 20mpg. Not sure if Owens was known for his defense or not.
Raja Bell provides the knee jerk reaction that would support a comment like “SEE! LB doesn’t like to play rookies that will go on to be good players!”, but remember, he was an undrafted FA out of Florida Int’l. I think LB really saw a lot of potential in Raja and made him his pet project, since a year later Bell would start 12 games and log 12mpg for the season.
John Salmons was on a team that made it to the EC Semifinals and had Iverson, Snow, McKie, Van Horn, Coleman and Bucker ahead of him. He had his first above average season in 08-09. Maybe he develops quicker if he gets minutes, but does he deserve to play over those guys?
Dalembert didn’t play very much as a rookie (5.2 mpg in 34 games) and didn’t play at all the following season. As a rook he missed 28 games due to injury and had arthroscopic knee surgery in his second year. In his first year of full health, he got 27mpg, but Randy Ayers and Chris Ford had taken over the coaching duties by then. Which leads me to:
LB’S DETROIT PISTON STINT AKA THE DARKO MILICIC FIASCO
Only three rookies would appear on the roster during LB’s tenure in Motown: Darko, Carlos Delfino, and Horace Jenkins. Delfino logged 15.3 mpg in 30 games as a rookie. Darko? Only 4.7 in 34. Despite the fact that Milicic is not very good and one of the worst #2 picks of all-time, he is fully responsible for creating a negative stigma that surrounds Larry Brown to this day--that he is unwilling to play capable rookies. A rep that he didn’t shake in NY while playing Channing Frye 24.2mpg, Nate Robinson 21.4mpg and David Lee 16.9mpg. What is even more frustrating is that too many Bobcat fans hold on to this reputation despite DJ Augustin logging 26.5mpg a year ago.
I know this was long, so I realize that the primary propagators of this fictional assessment are unlikely to read it, but it was long in order to make a strong point. Larry Brown, for almost two decades, has a strong history of playing his best, most game ready players--experience be damned. It's actually more damning if you didn't play much, because in almost every circumstance you were awful or a Mark Strickland/Fred Hoiberg type guy. There is an example of a good player not playing as much as he should have that doesn’t have a pretty good explanation as to why that’s the case (David Lee- 16.9mpg), but that’s really it. FWIW, I’ve heard it excused that LB used crazy lineups and rotations in NY in an attempt to get Isiah fired, but that seems pretty weak. There are no examples of great players not playing. You had to have some really good players ahead of you, struggle with injuries or be Nazr Mohammed to not get significant playing time under LB. Let’s hope that Henderson and Brown are instances of having better players ahead of them and Ajinça is one of the guys that gets better years after LB isn’t playing him and has a pretty average career. Otherwise, history shows that the reason they aren’t playing is because they shouldn’t be.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/coa ... la01c.html --find a player in the last two decades that had talent and didn't play, much less a rookie. If you don’t want to do that, here's the list of guys that probably didn't get as many minutes as rookies compared to the success they had over their careers: Tony Massenberg, Elliot Perry, Mark Strickland, Travis Best, Fred Hoiberg, a slew of 76ers and Darko. That’s it. Outside of some of the 76ers, Travis Best is the best player there that was in a situation where he maybe should’ve gotten more minutes than he did... and he still averaged 10mpg. Let’s begin...
Spurs
Massenberg arguably should've played over Sidney Green and Dave Greenwood (in the final year of his career), but I'm thinking he wasn't very good since a year later he played 18 games for 4 different teams. I think it's fair to give LB a pass here, since a year earlier, rookies David Robinson and Sean Elliott both got 37+ mpg and the year before that (LBs first year back in the NBA) rookie Willie Anderson lead the team in minutes played while sophomore Greg Anderson finished second and another rookie, Vernon Maxwell, finished 4th.
Clippers
I'll admit to not being familiar with Elliot Perry, but statistically he had good years in his mid 20s and a last hurrah at 30. LB played guards Ron Harper, Charles Grant, Doc Rivers, Bo Kimble and Danny Young more minutes than him. Of those, I can only say that I've seen Doc and Harper play before for certain. Elliot Perry was a 6’0 pg and seems to have been a pretty average player unless his career was derailed by injuries or something.
Pacers
Mark Strickland had a nice career but didn't get many opportunities as a rookie in Indiana. He had Derrick McKey, Dale Davis and Antonio Davis all logging heavy minutes at his position. Maybe he should've played over LaSalle Thompson, John Williams and Greg Kite... maybe he wasn't ready yet. It’s worth noting that LB had Antonio Davis as a rookie and gave him the 5th most minutes on the team (behind Miller, McKey, Dale Davis and Rik Smits).
Hoiberg had to pick up minutes behind Miller, Johnson and Pierce, who were all good. Duane Ferrell also got minutes and was not good, but maybe he brought something on defense that Hoiberg wasn't ready for. Also, this is “the Mayor” Fred Hoiberg we’re talking about.
I remember Travis Best being good, but looking over his career, maybe I overrated him because I was only 10 when he was a rookie. Haywoode Workman got the backup PG minutes behind Mark Jackson. I remember him being a game manager type, probably good at defense, but statistically, he doesn’t look very good. Best still got close to 10 minutes a game, but had a huge problem turning the ball over at the time. Maybe he plays better with more minutes? Before Philadelphia, this is the best example of a young player not playing over a veteran when maybe he should’ve been.
Final Pacer of note is Erick Dampier. As a rookie in Indiana and managed to get over 1000 mp/14.6mpg, on a team that still had the Davis’ and Smits ahead of him. Smits did miss 30 games that season, so maybe things are different if that doesn’t happen.
Sixers
LB’s Philly era isn’t as cut and dry as the near decade before it. There were many rookies brought in (excluding the scrubs that were quickly out of the league or never in it) we have: Anthony Parker, Tim Thomas, Nazr Mohammed, Larry Hughes, Jumaine Jones, Todd MacCulloch, Raja Bell, Speedy Claxton, Samuel Dalembert, and John Salmons. Of those, Parker, Mohammed, McCulloch, Jones, Bell, Dalembert and Salmons got less than 10 mpg as rookies (9.4 for McCulloch). Thomas, Hughes and Claxton all played more than 20mpg, but the guys getting less than 10mpg are pretty good, so what gives?
Anthony Parker’s career was jump started in Tel Aviv, where he became one of the best Euroleague players of all time. Since then, he’s been a consistent player who’s noted for his defense. I’m not sure why he fell out of the NBA, wiki mentions that he was “largely plagued by injury”. Since he seems like an LB type player, I think it’s safe to assume that the injury excuse is probably valid. LB played Jim Jackson and Aaron McKie at his position a lot, but neither had very good seasons. Without knowing more details, I’ll concede that this is a good example of a time when LB probably should’ve played a rookie, but thought veterans would be the key to making the playoffs. They missed the playoffs and let AP slip away. Whoops.
Nazr Mohammed has, until this most recent season, never played well for Larry Brown. I don’t know if it’s personal or what, but he played him a combined 507 minutes in the first 3 seasons of his career. Last season, when everyone was shocked at how few minutes Naz was getting, he still got more minutes than his first two seasons in the league. The best explanation I can offer is that Theo Ratliff was in his prime and this was the last above average year of Geiger’s career and both of those guys were getting more than 30mpg. I’d suggest that the 50 game lockout season had something to do with it, but his minutes didn’t really increase a year later and the roster was largely the same. (In fact, he only appeared in 2 more games in year two despite his team having an additional 32. OUCH!!) Best explanation I can come up with is that something about Mohammed’s playing style rubs LB the wrong way.
Todd MacCulloch got just under 10 mpg in his rookie year. He was efficient in his limited minutes and filled in nicely for the declining Geiger. Stole minutes at the 5 from sophomore Naz.
Jumaine Jones would have the most efficient year of his career as a sophomore, but his rookie year was not so great. He had Lynch, McKie, Kukoc, Hughes, Billy Owens and Bruce Bowen ahead of him on the roster. Billy Owens wasn’t very good at this point though, so maybe Jones should’ve had some of his 20mpg. Not sure if Owens was known for his defense or not.
Raja Bell provides the knee jerk reaction that would support a comment like “SEE! LB doesn’t like to play rookies that will go on to be good players!”, but remember, he was an undrafted FA out of Florida Int’l. I think LB really saw a lot of potential in Raja and made him his pet project, since a year later Bell would start 12 games and log 12mpg for the season.
John Salmons was on a team that made it to the EC Semifinals and had Iverson, Snow, McKie, Van Horn, Coleman and Bucker ahead of him. He had his first above average season in 08-09. Maybe he develops quicker if he gets minutes, but does he deserve to play over those guys?
Dalembert didn’t play very much as a rookie (5.2 mpg in 34 games) and didn’t play at all the following season. As a rook he missed 28 games due to injury and had arthroscopic knee surgery in his second year. In his first year of full health, he got 27mpg, but Randy Ayers and Chris Ford had taken over the coaching duties by then. Which leads me to:
LB’S DETROIT PISTON STINT AKA THE DARKO MILICIC FIASCO
Only three rookies would appear on the roster during LB’s tenure in Motown: Darko, Carlos Delfino, and Horace Jenkins. Delfino logged 15.3 mpg in 30 games as a rookie. Darko? Only 4.7 in 34. Despite the fact that Milicic is not very good and one of the worst #2 picks of all-time, he is fully responsible for creating a negative stigma that surrounds Larry Brown to this day--that he is unwilling to play capable rookies. A rep that he didn’t shake in NY while playing Channing Frye 24.2mpg, Nate Robinson 21.4mpg and David Lee 16.9mpg. What is even more frustrating is that too many Bobcat fans hold on to this reputation despite DJ Augustin logging 26.5mpg a year ago.
I know this was long, so I realize that the primary propagators of this fictional assessment are unlikely to read it, but it was long in order to make a strong point. Larry Brown, for almost two decades, has a strong history of playing his best, most game ready players--experience be damned. It's actually more damning if you didn't play much, because in almost every circumstance you were awful or a Mark Strickland/Fred Hoiberg type guy. There is an example of a good player not playing as much as he should have that doesn’t have a pretty good explanation as to why that’s the case (David Lee- 16.9mpg), but that’s really it. FWIW, I’ve heard it excused that LB used crazy lineups and rotations in NY in an attempt to get Isiah fired, but that seems pretty weak. There are no examples of great players not playing. You had to have some really good players ahead of you, struggle with injuries or be Nazr Mohammed to not get significant playing time under LB. Let’s hope that Henderson and Brown are instances of having better players ahead of them and Ajinça is one of the guys that gets better years after LB isn’t playing him and has a pretty average career. Otherwise, history shows that the reason they aren’t playing is because they shouldn’t be.
Re: MJ & The Draft.
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SWedd523
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Re: MJ & The Draft.
Finally Walt, I was beginning to think you gave up on that argument. I said it before, and I'll say it again.
Wonderful post
Wonderful post
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e4Nf6
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Damn Walt...I predict one day you'll be the first person in Realgm history to post in full MLA format...
I wouldn't make the argument that historically LB has not played deserving young guys. I just wish he'd play UPS and Tyrus Thomas a bit more. That's all...
I wouldn't make the argument that historically LB has not played deserving young guys. I just wish he'd play UPS and Tyrus Thomas a bit more. That's all...
=/∞
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DY_nasty
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Re: MJ & The Draft.
I'll just say this, signing Flip right after bringing in Henderson was something that I had trouble dealing with. Henderson's handling this year has been horrible all around. Those stretches where Crash and Jax were getting burnt out and the bench was giving no effort at all... you know who gives starters good resting time and always put out great effort when given the chance? Rookies. I'm just speaking as a Bobcats fan when I say that Larry doesn't play rookies. It seemed like he went out of his way to bury them on the roster this year.
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therebirth
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Tell that to Dudley. He is on record as saying that the only reason he is playing better is because LB is not his coach. He said he is not taken out of the game with the first mistake he makes and will be happy for DJ when he leaves Charlotte.
The curse of Higgins!
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Walt Cronkite
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Re: MJ & The Draft.
DY_nasty wrote:I'm just speaking as a Bobcats fan when I say that Larry doesn't play rookies. It seemed like he went out of his way to bury them on the roster this year.
20 years of history shows you to be wrong. The rookies aren't ready or they aren't good. LB didn't go out of his way to not play them out of spite, that's foolish.
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Walt Cronkite
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therebirth wrote:Tell that to Dudley. He is on record as saying that the only reason he is playing better is because LB is not his coach. He said he is not taken out of the game with the first mistake he makes and will be happy for DJ when he leaves Charlotte.
Please find me this quote, shouldn't be hard since it's on the record. I remember reading him saying that being out of Charlotte was good because it was a better situation for him. Maybe he was on a short leash, but you know who averaged 21.4 mpg last minutes? Jared Dudley. That's 6.2 more than he did that season in Phoenix. Maybe having a high enough IQ to know his role and learn to hit the 3 were the only reasons he is playing better?
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DY_nasty
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Walt Cronkite wrote:DY_nasty wrote:I'm just speaking as a Bobcats fan when I say that Larry doesn't play rookies. It seemed like he went out of his way to bury them on the roster this year.
20 years of history shows you to be wrong. The rookies aren't ready or they aren't good. LB didn't go out of his way to not play them out of spite, that's foolish.
I wasn't speaking about 20 years of history. I was speaking of his time with the Bobcats. There was absolutely no reason at all why our team had to have two guys in the top 10 mpg at one point this season. I blame Larry Brown entirely for Stephen Jackson breaking down towards the end of the season. The funny thing is that Larry Brown then went on the record saying that Jackson should lose weight - how about he give the guy some rest by throwing Derrick Brown or Henderson a solid 5 mpg?
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Walt Cronkite
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Re: MJ & The Draft.
Playoff desperation is a reason.
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DY_nasty
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Walt Cronkite wrote:Playoff desperation is a reason.
Cmon. LB's dumb roster moves may have ended up costing us a couple of games too. The Acie Law Play, Jax's awful nights, those weird nights where Derrick would come in - do nothing wrong - and never be seen again. A consistent 5 mpg isn't a lot to ask.
Gerald missed almost 40 games this season. Derrick didn't touch the floor in 25. Meanwhile Jackson played 39 per and Wallace played 41 per. I'm just saying...
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Walt Cronkite
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DY_nasty wrote:Cmon. LB's dumb roster moves may have ended up costing us a couple of games too. The Acie Law Play, Jax's awful nights, those weird nights where Derrick would come in - do nothing wrong - and never be seen again. A consistent 5 mpg isn't a lot to ask.
Gerald missed almost 40 games this season. Derrick didn't touch the floor in 25. Meanwhile Jackson played 39 per and Wallace played 41 per. I'm just saying...
You claimed there was "absolutely no reason at all why our team had to have two guys in the top 10 mpg at one point this season" and I will stand by "playoff desperation" as an absolute reason.
UPS averaged 9.4mpg and he played good, but not great. Hendo (shouldn't call him Gerald, that legitimately confused me for 3 minutes until I realized who you were talking about) averaged 8.3 and was worse than Brown, early on he looked REALLY lost.
I can't explain Larry Brown's quirks. Certainly he had opportunities we could point to, but he accomplished the mission that was put forth in front of him. We are still a pretty average team, there were few opportunities to throw guys in and get garbage minutes. We're not bad or good enough to demand at least 5 mpg night in and night out for two guys just because they are promising rookies, especially when the goal is to win.
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DY_nasty
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The playoff desperation made sense towards the end of the season, to a degree, but before the all-star break is where I really had my issues. Larry Brown's rotations had many of thinking he was senile at one point.
I really had an issue with him bringing in Flip AND Larry Hughes when we just drafted a shooting guard though. I'm a UNC fan, I don't even like Henderson (or Redick, or Elton Brand for that matter), but let the guy at least get used to the speed of the game before you decide to bury him on the roster under a couple of league journeyman.
I really had an issue with him bringing in Flip AND Larry Hughes when we just drafted a shooting guard though. I'm a UNC fan, I don't even like Henderson (or Redick, or Elton Brand for that matter), but let the guy at least get used to the speed of the game before you decide to bury him on the roster under a couple of league journeyman.
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Walt Cronkite
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Re: MJ & The Draft.
We were desperate to make the playoffs all season.
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DY_nasty
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Re: MJ & The Draft.
Walt Cronkite wrote:We were desperate to make the playoffs all season.
DY_nasty wrote:Cmon. LB's dumb roster moves may have ended up costing us a couple of games too. The Acie Law Play, Jax's awful nights, those weird nights where Derrick would come in - do nothing wrong - and never be seen again. A consistent 5 mpg isn't a lot to ask.
just sayin...
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Walt Cronkite
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Not sure what your point is. I was commenting directly on you claiming that playoff desperation only made sense toward the end of the season. Maybe Hendo and UPS play better than Flip, Hughes and Graham, maybe they don't. LB obviously thought our best bet to win games was for Jax and Crash to be on the floor as much as they could, there are few opposing lineups where you can plug in Hendo with those two, especially early in the year. Maybe Brown should've gotten more minutes than Diaw, but maybe he probably would've been a a disadvantage on defense a lot of the time because we'd have 3 wings on the court and one of them has to guard the post. It's easy to say put Jax or Crash down there, but you pick up more fouls closer to the basket and we needed those two out there.
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DY_nasty
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Walt Cronkite wrote:Not sure what your point is. I was commenting directly on you claiming that playoff desperation only made sense toward the end of the season. Maybe Hendo and UPS play better than Flip, Hughes and Graham, maybe they don't. LB obviously thought our best bet to win games was for Jax and Crash to be on the floor as much as they could, there are few opposing lineups where you can plug in Hendo with those two, especially early in the year. Maybe Brown should've gotten more minutes than Diaw, but maybe he probably would've been a a disadvantage on defense a lot of the time because we'd have 3 wings on the court and one of them has to guard the post. It's easy to say put Jax or Crash down there, but you pick up more fouls closer to the basket and we needed those two out there.
Gerald Wallace played a full 10 more minutes per game than Tim Duncan. The Spurs found ways to stay afloat just fine without their hall of famer on the court - and they did it while Tony Parker was gone and Ginobli was hurt. Pop was smart enough to see that his main guy wasn't going to be able to shoulder all of that weight so he found ways to make his team play more efficiently. Larry Brown on the other hand decides to gamble on his players' ability to run the gauntlet. I would understand that attitude more if we had a young coach trying to make a name for himself as well as gain job security, but Larry Brown is pretty much untouchable in his current state. Long story short, I'd like to see more people in the organization make better decisions regarding the future of the franchise.
All those "Fire LB" threads had valid points. Not to say that they were full of valid points
, but it was clear to a lot of people that Larry Brown wasn't always making the best decisions.Re: MJ & The Draft.
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Walt Cronkite
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Spurs weren't desperate to make the playoffs, they've been run properly for over a decade, have a strong fan base and championship success. We'll never know if we could have made the playoffs with Stack and Crash playing less minutes, only that we did what we did and it accomplished our goal. I think 2 decades of history are pretty relevant when considering the limited opportunities that Brown gave to the rookies. It is very unlikely that either is a future star. I think time in the d-league would have been good for both of them, but there are reports that Hendo didn't want to go.