Retro POY '95-96 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '95-96. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1996.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1996.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1996.html

Topics for '95-96

-Jordan 23 returns
-Sonics finally live up to playoff potential
-Shaq missed 28 games, team does better

[sp6r=underrated]

My first two picks are set in stone

1. Jordan
2. Robinson

Open to persuasion on the others

[Gongxi]

Same.

Shaq (again) didn't play nearly enough games to qualify, so the other three spots come down to some combination of Olajuwon, Malone, Payton, Barkley, Kemp, Hill, Pippen, and Penny. Maybe Stockton. Can't see votes coming for anyone else, really.

[lorak]

My first two picks are set in stone

1. Jordan
2. Robinson

Open to persuasion on the others

Agree.

I think Penny (yeah, I like him ) should be in top 5. Payton or Kemp (who was number 1 in Seattle?) also. Then I have no idea. Probably Malone or Barkley?

[Gongxi]

Oh yeah, totally forgot Penny. I was thinking of him, but forgot to actually type his name in. Editing now: I'm pretty positive Penny will end up in my 5.

[Baller 24]

Here's some information regarding my top 5 candidates:

-- Jordan's an obvious.
-- Robinson's an obvious at 2nd for me too, he was really great this year, 2nd in MVP voting, and pretty productive in the playoffs

After that I'm debating between the following:
-- Olajuwon had an awesome RS, his playoff numbers kind of dipped, but Drexler, Cassell, Horry, and Olajuwon missed games throughout that season due to injuries, but the Rockets were 1-9 without him, 47-25 with him, easily on pace to win 50+ games that season. And everyone aside from Olajuwon was horrid in the playoffs, including Drexler.

-- Penny Hardaway was amazing that season, he played in all 82 games, the Magic were 60-22 overall, and despite Shaq missing 28 games that season, the Magic went 20-8 without Shaq, he was pretty amazing in the playoffs too.

-- Karl Malone was 26/4/10, the Jazz won 55 games, he was solid throughout the playoffs, and led his team all the way to the WCF, where they lost in 7 games.


Those are most likely my top 5, just need to decide where they go, unless someone sways me to put Pippen, Payton, or anyone else in the top 5.

[TMACFORMVP]

I'm sorry I missed the last thread for voting. Anyways..

Jordan is obviously first.

Is Robinson the consensus over Hakeem? I have him over Hakeem as well, but it's a funny scenario, because this time it was Robinson who performed better in the playoffs. But both did lose in the second round, so in terms of team success, neither outperformed the other in that regard. So then we look at the regular season:

Code: Select all

Hakeem: 26.9 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 3.6 APG, 2.9 BPG on .514
Robinson: 25.0 PPG, 12.2 RPG, 3.0 APG, 3.3 BPG on .516

The team success (59 wins to 48) is the tipping factor for Robinson (and those advanced stats if you like them - personally I'm not the largest fan). But I would like to point out while Hakeem's 10 missed games should certainly count against him, the Rockets went an alarming 1-9 in those games he missed, meaning they were 47-25 with him in the lineup.

Against a similar caliber player like Robinson who played all 82, it shouldn't be used as much an argument, but that's ridiculous impact. Robinson was better both in the regular season and post-season.

Payton led his team to the finals, and was very good in the playoffs (20/5/7 on 48/41). He's famously noted for his switching on to Jordan in the finals and doing a rather fantastic job. He was the DPOY, and 19/4/7.5 on 48% in the regular season. He also had a career high in steals, and played nearly the entire season.

I also think Penny should make the Top 5 (which ultimately puts Shaq out of it once again -- though I was leaning towards him for my 5th place spot in 97). The Magic went 20-8 without Shaq in the lineup, and Penny was terrific all season - all playoffs long.

Ewing had a solid season, but his FG% dipped, and his team success isn't enough to put him over these other players. Pippen was rather poor in the playoffs shooting the ball (39%), that he likely wouldn't go over Penny, and Payton who had more impressive seasons (but it's hard to not justify for him when he was on such a dominant team).

Malone is likely that other guy to be in the top 5. Roughly 26/10/4 in the regular season on 52%. In the playoffs they went to the WCF with Karl doing 27/10/4 on the way. They were only a game away from reaching the finals (in fact, they lost Game 7 by only four points), but that might hurt him moreso than help him. In that Game 7, Malone shot 8-22, only grabbed 5 boards, and went 6-12 from the line. On the other end, Shawn Kemp ripped apart the Jazz getting 26/14 on 8-12.

Which means it comes down to Malone, Penny, and Payton for two of the final three spots. I think Payton might be the worst individual player of the bunch, but by how much considering Payton achieved more team success than the both of them.

I'm leaning towards Jordan, Robinson, Hakeem, Penny, and Malone. But I could be convinced Payton for that final spot, in fact I'm probably going to put him over Karl.

I won't vote just yet, listen to some arguments, but there's some food for thought.

[Baller 24]

Good note on Payton, here are some interesting quotes on Payton during the 1996 Finals against Jordan:

Midway through the 1996 NBA Finals, Seattle coach George Karl made the decision to assign Payton to play defense as a shooting guard instead of his normal point guard assignment in order to defend Jordan. Though the Bulls won the series, Seattle's (and especially Payton's) defense held Jordan and the Bulls to their lowest offensive output in an NBA finals and "frustrated the best player in the game."[15] In his first three NBA Finals, Jordan averaged 36.3 points per game and had scored at least 30 points in 14 of his 17 games. However, in the 1996 Finals, Jordan averaged 27.3 points per game and scored more than 30 points in only 1 of the 6 games.[16] In a game 5 preview after Payton had held Jordan to a career NBA Finals low of 23, an NBA pregame show described the rivalry of two strong defensive players renowned for their competitiveness.

"[In Game 4, Jordan had his] lowest output in a Finals game, much of it with Payton guarding him. Though afterwards, Jordan refused to give Payton credit, saying 'No one can stop me, I can only stop myself. I missed some easy shots.' The truth is, Jordan finds the NBA's Defensive Player of the Year [Payton] annoying. He views the [young Payton] as impudent, and he would love to have a big game at [Payton's] expense." (NBA on NBC Preview, Game 5)[17]

The Sonics won that game by 21 points and Payton held Jordan to 26 points - Jordan's second-lowest-scoring Finals game in his career up to that point. In game 6, which the Bulls would win to capture the Championship, Payton played 47 minutes and Jordan missed 14 of his 19 shots, getting a career Finals low 22 points.[18] By the end of the series, Michael Jordan had been held under 30 points in 5 of the 6 games, including his three lowest-scoring Finals games up to that point (26 in Game 5, 23 in Game 4, 22 in Game 6). Bill Walton, commentating for NBC at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series, and that Seattle coach George Karl would "rue" the decision to "hide [Payton] from 'the king'" in the early games of the series.[19] During this series, Payton and his Sonics also held Jordan's Bulls to the lowest-scoring quarter in their NBA Finals history. Michael Jordan would never score fewer points in an NBA Finals game than his 22 points in game 6[20], and would never be held under 30 points more than twice in a Finals series, which the Sonics did five times.

I'm being swayed to put Payton over Malone, solid season for him, and obviously that DPOY helps, plus Malone really got owned in Game 7.

[lorak]

Those are most likely my top 5, just need to decide where they go, unless someone sways me to put Pippen, Payton, or anyone else in the top 5.

DPOY, his team sweept Hakeem’s team and won tough series with Jazz, when he destroyed one of the best point guards of all time (Stockton had really bad series). In the finals they won two games against 72 win team. IMO pretty impressive resume and definitely should be in top 5.

And I don’t know what to do with Olajuwon. Again. Very good in regular season but for example Karl Malone was better. In playoffs uncharacteristically for him he played much, much worse and Malone was better than him (and his team wasn’t swept by Sonics…).

So I don’t now, but as for now:
1 and 2 – MJ and Robinson
Then I think Penny, Payton and Malone, but I don’t know what order.

[Baller 24]

Olajuwon had a better RS than Malone---more complete all-around game, his impact was obviously terrific, he played similarly to Robinson as TMACFORMVP noted, but his impact was great, that team wins 50+ games easily with Olajuwon not missing games due to injuries. I agree the sweep hurts him, but the entire team played just awful basketball.

[lorak]

Re: 1-9 without Hakeem.

That’s good argument, but small sample size and many injuries in that Rockets team should get our attention. In other words - we have to look at the context!
And in this case the context is that not only Olajuwon missed time during that 10 games. Other best Rockets players also didn’t played much: Drexler and Elie played in three of these games, Cassell in one, even Horry missed three.

BTW, I checked Rockets S5 during that games:
vs Cavs: Kenny, Mack, Horry, Brown, Bryant
vs GSW: Kenny, Recasner, Mack, Horry, Brown
@ Suns: Kenny, Elie, Drexler, Brown, Bryant
vs NYK: Kenny, Moore, Mack, Brown, Bryant
@ Mavs: Kenny, Moore, Mack, Brown, Bryant
vs PTB: Recasner, Mack, Horry, Brown, Bryant
@ GSW (W): Kenny, Mack, Horry, Brown, Bryant
@ Sea: Kenny,Mack, Horry, Brown, Bryant
@ Sac: Kenny, Mack, Horry, Brown, Bryant/ Drexler from the bench
@ Den: Kenny, Drexler, Horry, Brown, Bryant

[lorak]

Olajuwon had a better RS than Malone---more complete all-around game, his impact was obviously terrific, he played similarly to Robinson as TMACFORMVP noted, but his impact was great, that team wins 50+ games easily with Olajuwon not missing games due to injuries. I agree the sweep hurts him, but the entire team played just awful basketball.

Hakeem hadn’t better RS than Malone.
HO: 25.5 PER, 9.7 WS, 0.166 WS/48
KM: 26 PER, 15.1 WS, 0.233 WS/48
Obviously Hakeem was better defender, but not as good as during earlier years.
Overall in best case for Olajuwon they were comparable, but in playoffs Malone was much better, so he definitely should be above Hakeem.

BTW, against Sonics, when Rockets had the chance to stole G2 in Seattle (they lost by 4 points) Olajuwon played bad: 8/21 FG, only 1 FTA (!) and 5 TOV, while his supporting cast played good. So they lost opportunity because of HO.

On the other hand after 4 games Jazz were losing 1-3 to the Sonics. In next two games Malone had 61 points, on 24/44 FG with only 2 TOV.

[Baller 24]

Note that in terms of win-shares, amount of games is also a factor (Olajuwon missed 10 games, in a stretch where the Rockets were horrible). Olajuwon had a similar RS as Robinson, though David was obviously the superior, but the team impact in the RS and how the Rockets did without him (only winning 1 game), IMO it's Olajuwon for me anyways. Though the post-season factor goes to Malone for me.

[CellarDoor]

Nice find, DS. Puts the 1-9 number being thrown around in perspective.

[lorak]

Note that in terms of win-shares, amount of games is also a factor

WS – yes.
WS/48 – no.
And Malone was significantly better in both. That’s IMO equal to Hakeem’s advantage on defense, so overall they were comparable in RS, but Malone was clearly better in playoffs.

Olajuwon had a similar RS as Robinson.

Oh no. No way. Robinson had a similar RS as Jordan (maybe even better) and Hakeem was far behind them.

MJ: 29.4, 20.4 WS, 0.317 WS/48
DR: 29.4 PER, 18.3 WS, 0.290 WS/48
KM: 26 PER, 15.1 WS, 0.233 WS/48
HO: 25.5 PER, 9.7 WS, 0.166 WS/48

[ronnymac2]

Wow. My goodness me. David Robinson had a fantastic regular season. Great stats. His team did well. Runner-up in MVP voting. He's right up there with Michael Jordan himself.

I think I might put him at number two, behind Jordan. But....I just have one question. Why does David Robinson always fail as an individual in the playoffs?

[Baller 24]

BTW, I checked Rockets S5 during that games:
vs Cavs: Kenny, Mack, Horry, Brown, Bryant
vs GSW: Kenny, Recasner, Mack, Horry, Brown
@ Suns: Kenny, Elie, Drexler, Brown, Bryant
vs NYK: Kenny, Moore, Mack, Brown, Bryant
@ Mavs: Kenny, Moore, Mack, Brown, Bryant
vs PTB: Recasner, Mack, Horry, Brown, Bryant
@ GSW (W): Kenny, Mack, Horry, Brown, Bryant
@ Sea: Kenny,Mack, Horry, Brown, Bryant
@ Sac: Kenny, Mack, Horry, Brown, Bryant/ Drexler from the bench
@ Den: Kenny, Drexler, Horry, Brown, Bryant

Sorry, missed this post. Yeah Drexler was pretty banged up too.

-- Without Olajuwon or Drexler: 1-7

-- Without Drexler with Olajuwon: 15-8, expand that out to a 82 games season and you're on pace to win 54 Games (6 of those wins without starting point guard Kenny Smith)

-- Without Olajuwon with Drexler: 0-3

Still don't see the point, with Olajuwon playing the Rockets win 47 games, if he played the remaining 10 games, with his pace they're on pace to win 54 games, and even without Drexler (quarter of the season) they're on pace to win 54 games. Doesn't regress one bit.

[bastillon]

Rockets in the playoffs: Cassell had an elbow surgery between G1 and G2 of WCSFs, Drexler had a knee surgery in the RS that didn't heal very well AND severely sprained ankle in the 1st Rd of the playoffs, Horry had some back spasms or smth, Kenny had some injury too but I don't remember that very well either. entire Rockets team was injured in the WCSFs and they were all over Hakeem. they couldn't even deliver him the ball to the post.

I think people are understating how bad Rockets were. when they were healthy, it was a pretty decent team, not that far off '95 version. the thing is... they weren't healthy at all. many significant players missed a lot of games: Drexler 30, Cassell 20, Horry 11, Elie half of the season, Smith 14, even Hakeem missed 10 games as mentioned before. Chucky Brown, the 90s version of Jarron Collins, ended up with 3rd most total mins... that's telling. it's ridiculous just how bad Rockets were outside of center position.

they actually started the season 18-6 (61.5), then Drexler went down, then Horry and then everybody else. when they healthy though, it was an excellent team. they were like the Celtics 2010 that didn't get healthy in the playoffs and went to the hospital instead.

so you have to understand just how badly injured this team was and how desperate they were for any sort of depth (Collins-level player 3rd most total mins) or quality players. you can't blame Hakeem for not taking this team further. it was unreasonable to make a demand like that given all the injuries. individually, he was awesome and his RS was every bit as good as the year before.

Code: Select all

              MPG   PPG   TS%   APG   TOV   RPG   BPG   SPG
 97 Pippen   41.0  18.5  0.51   7.0   2.3   7.3   0.3   2.0
 97 Penny    43.8  25.5  0.55   4.3   2.8   3.8   0.3   1.0

this is their playoff head2head that year. Penny was better scoring wise, but Pippen outproduced him in other areas and his team won by sweep too. also, I think Pippen was just more impactful player than Penny.

my top5 no order:
MJ, Dream, Shaq, Malone, Pippen

edit: wow, forgot about DRob. that's gonna be tough now.

[ElGee]

I've narrowed this down to 6 for 5 spots (MJ, Robinson, Malone, Penny, Pippen, Olajuwon), although I'd love to hear arguments for Barkley and especially Payton, who had a great year.

A quick note about Kemp:

There is a post about this in the statistical forum about putting individual rebounding numbers into team context. It seems, from my early playing around with the numbers that Kemp isn't really an "impact rebounder" and is taking boards from his teammates instead of the other team (Sonics had a +0.9 rebounding edge per game as a team in 96). Not sure if people are big on Kemp because of his rebounding numbers, so just something to think about.

[bastillon]

playoff head2head:

Code: Select all

              MPG   PPG   TS%   APG   TOV   RPG   BPG   SPG
 96 Malone   38.5  25.0  0.49   4.7   2.2   9.3   0.8   1.3
 96 D-Rob    34.8  19.3  0.53   2.0   2.3   9.0   2.5   1.7

this goes to Malone quite easily. DRob just didn't perform well when it mattered and there was no excuse for that. he's fighting with Shaq, Penny and Pippen for 4/5. stacked year, indeed.