Retro POY '94-95 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '94-95. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1995.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1995.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1995.html

Topics for '94-95

-A Dream explodes
-Robinson, Shaq, Ewing defined as also-rans
-Bulls struggles; Jordan returns...struggles.

[ronnymac2]

Michael Jordan missed 65 games. Being consistent with my logic from previous threads, it's like missing 70 games, what with teammates learning how to incorportate a new star. Jordan didn't perform THAT well in the playoffs either. He won't be making my list.

Am I joking for even bringing this up?.........



My list is going to have Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson....then most likely Malone and Barkley. Not sure about the exact order yet.

[JordansBulls]

Thinking up front with Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Scottie and Drexler.

1994-1995

1. Hakeem Olajuwon - Ranking him #1 this year over Robinson is similar to ranking MJ over Malone in 1998. Robinson was better in the regular season, just like Malone was over MJ, however in the playoffs the later was better and they won the head to head matchup without HCA and outplayed the counterpart. Won Finals MVP, 3rd in season Win Shares, 2nd in scoring, 2nd in Playoff PER. Finished 5th in MVP voting

2. David Robinson - Won League MVP, Led in WS and WS per 48 minutes and PER on the season, and was 3rd in PPG in the season 1st Team All NBA And Defense.

3. Shaquille O'neal - Led team to the finals, finished 1st in PPG, 2nd in PER, 2nd in Win Shares and 3rd in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, Tied in Playoff Win Shares. 5th in Playoff Win Shares. Finished 2nd in MVP voting.

4. Clyde Drexler - Led his team in Win Shares when combining his total Win Shares on the season between his two clubs. Led in Total Playoff Win Shares

5. Scottie Pippen - Led team in Total Points, Blocks, Rebounds, Steals and Assists on the season. Finished 7th in MVP voting


HM: Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, John Stockton, Kevin Johnson

I'm curious on how Ewing was 4th in MVP voting but didn't make an All NBA Team.

[Dr Positivity]

This should be interesting. I love this year. So many what ifs for almost all the other than Jordan 90s stars, other than Hakeem of course.

- Malone's Jazz blow 7 pt 4th quarter lead at home, in deciding Game 5 against Rockets. Since a ready to be pnr'd to death Shaq was waiting in the finals, perhaps this was the best Stockton/Malone shot

- Barkley's Suns blow 3-1 lead with 2 of 3 remaining at home. One of the biggest chokes nobody talks about.

- Ewing misses layup in Game 7 vs Pacers + Reggie 8pt outburst in Game 1, ends Riley Knicks era.

- Payton's 57 win Sonics lose to 48 win Ceballos/Divac/Van Exel/Eddie Jones Lakers team. This is the underrated one because the Sonics usually killed the Rockets. In retrospect Houston was lucky the Sonics choked in 94 and 95 - the two years Jordan was also out of the picture.

- Nick Anderson misses 4 FTs in Game 1 of the Finals

And of course Robinson getting bamboozled. Though I do think it's forgotten that series was 2-2 with San Antonio having 2 of 3 at home and most of the momentum. It wasn't a destruction by the Rockets.

I'm leaning towards 1. Hakeem 2. Robinson 3. Shaq 4. Malone, and 5. Ewing over Barkley due to games played

[shawngoat23]

Here's my preliminary list, which is official if I don't modify it in time:

1) Hakeem Olajuwon - With my normal criteria, I'd have him Hakeem lower because his regular season performance is significantly lower than some of the other contenders (namely Robinson and Shaq). But he so thoroughly dominated Robinson in their individual matchup and slightly outplayed Shaq while sweeping his seemingly more talented team that I have absolutely no qualms about putting Hakeem here on the basis of playoff performance. When the goal is to win a championship and you deliver the way Hakeem did, you deserve every right to be called the best player in the league.

2) David Robinson - Sure, he got handled by Hakeem in the WCF. But it's still a remarkable achievement to post a league-high 62 wins on a team with Sean Elliot as the #2 option, Dennis Rodman as the only significant roleplayer (who was as disruptive with his personality this year as he was helpful with his play), and relatively little depth to speak of. His stats were amazing: 27.6 ppg, 10.8 rpg (next to Rodman no less), 2.9 apg, 1.7 spg, 3.2 bpg on 53.0%/77.4% shooting; 29.1 PER, 60.2% TS, and a league-high 17.5 WS. Obviously, also a dominant player on the defensive end.

3) Shaquille O'Neal - Almost as dominant as Robinson in the regular season and played Hakeem almost to a standstill (statistically), although he didn't make the clutch plays that Hakeem did. To be fair, Shaq performed quite admirably in the Finals, and his teammates failed, but at the same time, that Magic team was pretty damn talented, so I'm going to put him below Hakeem and Robinson, which is no shame. Still clearly a top 3 player this year.

4) Karl Malone - Led his Jazz to an impressive 60 wins while posting some incredible numbers. He didn't do it alone though, as he had a quite capable sidekick in John Stockton who I feel gets underrated a lot on these forums. Clearly below the top 3 guys this year, but no question Malone was the main guy on a great 60 win team.

5) Patrick Ewing - I was inclined to go with Barkley here by a hair, but as Dr Mufasa mentioned, the missed games were enough for me to tip the scales in favor of Ewing. His defense and intensity for a Knicks team that prided itself on exactly those two things were a big plus for me, but I would have liked to see a big-time player like Ewing perform better in the playoffs.

[sp6r=underrated]

- Barkley's Suns blow 3-1 lead with 2 of 3 remaining at home. One of the biggest chokes nobody talks about.

Barkley's suns don't get nearly as much grief as they deserve, and are probably the most overrated never to win a title team in my years following the NBA.

They only had one big run as a unit, 1993, but they almost got bounced in the first round and struggled each round of the playoffs. The 93 Suns got more favorable officiating out of all the teams I ever saw in the playoffs. They probably would have been beaten by either an awful laker squad or the sonics with fair officiating.

They don't get grief I think partly because they lost to the 93 bulls, but the 93 bulls were like the 98 bulls not nearly as invincible as people remember them. A great team surely, but the type of team that most NBA champions beat at some point in the playoffs. Partly, they don't get grief because everyone loves Barkley (myself included) after he retired, and partly because they were entertaining to watch.

[tkb]

Off the top of my head, I'll probably go something like this:

1. Hakeem Olajuwon (easy pick)
2. David Robinson or Shaquille O'Neal (haven't decided between the two yet)
3. Se above
4. Karl Malone
5. Scottie Pippen

I might change the 4 and 5 spots too depending on arguments, but those are my initial picks.

[lorak]

1. Hakeem
2. Robinson
3. Shaq
4. Malone
5. Stockton

EDIT

After mysticbb posts I changed my votes: Barkley is out and Stockton in on the 5th spot.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Hakeem is my #1 over DRob. Hakeem just destroyed the Spurs, even without HCA. For all of David's defensive ability, he couldn't do anything against the Dream.

After that, it's going to be interesting. I still have Stockton, Pippen, Ewing, Shaq, Malone, Payton, Clyde, and Barkley in the mix. Stange year, this was when the NBA was mired in mediocrity.

[kaima]

I wrote a Russian novel. But in my defense I love post play, and this post-season was post player nirvana. I don't know if it was ever better.

I'm going to preface this very (very) simply: Hakeem's Number 1.

Now, onto the more complex analysis of post play to determine who follows in the context of where from why.

Starting simply enough, with closeout game numbers between Hakeem and the opposing star:

Game 5, Jazz/Rockets

Malone: 35 points, 10 reb, 3 ast, 2 stl

Olajuwon: 33 points, 10 reb, 4 ast, 1 blk

Game 7, Suns/Rockets

Barkley: 18 points, 23 reb, 5 ast, 1 stl, 1 blk

Olajuwon: 29 points, 11 reb, 4 ast, 1 blk

Game 6, Spurs/Rockets

Robinson: 19 points, 10 reb, 5 ast, 4 stl, 1 blk

Olajuwon: 39 points, 17 reb, 3 ast, 2 stl, 5 blk

Game 4, Magic/Rockets

Shaq: 25 points, 12 reb, 3 ast, 4 blk

Olajuwon: 35 points, 15, reb, 6 ast, 3 stl

By the standard(s) advocated in previous threads, particularly those of NO-KG-AI in the 99-00 thread on KG v Malone, it should be considered that Barkley and Malone's teams pushed the Rockets to the limit, whereas the proceeding two series actually became easier, and that Malone is the only player to play Olajuwon to a standstill in a deciding game that playoffs.

Barkley was limited in game 7, looking at scoring, but he was also battling a serious injury, which makes those 23 rebs all the more staggering.

Now, broader series issues, keyed by the star matchups in the post:

Utah V Houston

Mail: 30.2 ppg, 13.2 reb, 3.8 ast, 1.4 stl, 0.4 blk

Olajuwon: 35 ppg, 8.6 reb, 4 ast, 0.8 stl, 2.6 blk

In the Utah series, it's interesting to note that it was Drexler, not Olajuwon, that seemed to decide outcome.

Oh, to be sure Hakeem was spectacular, but that was expected. When Drexler put up big numbers, that's when they won. When his scoring was bad or lacking, Utah would win.

In the two Utah wins, Drexler had twenty four comibined. In the Houston wins, he never had less than thirty a game.

On the other side of it, Malone again was the only player that took on a dominant scoring role for Utah. Houston had, in the instance of game 2, two players score over thirty; neither was named Hakeem Olajuwon. I don't know if that ever happened in Malone's playoff career to his side, and it certainly didn't in this series.

In fact, no one other than Malone had a single game over 28 points (Stockton, game 1). All that said, I don't want to underrate Stockton; but that's the problem, in that Stockton is a great player whose numbers don't tell the whole story. I really don't think we have the system to fully equate Stockton's worth; he could very well be underrated. It's the same way I feel about Scottie Pippen.

I will say that Stockton was a very rare player, especially as regards pace-control; I don't think there's a PG in the league right now that has Stockton's ability to dominate both teams in the arena through ball-handling and individuated pace adjustment/diversity. The anti-Nash.

The problem becomes, without a secondary volume scorer a team then relies on depth. Utah's depth, looking at this series, was mediocre. Bench production was simply bad.

Another factor that played in Houston's favor was Utah losing their starting Center before the series started. It hurt Utah's rotation, throwing guys out of traditional roles and, even acknowledging that Felton Spencer was servicable at best, left Utah with a guy whose only eye-popping stat was his age: 37. Well, his stats for the series were rather standout for a starting C as well: 2.8 points, 1.8 rebounds, 0 assists, 0.5 blocks and 0 steals. This guy sucked so bad that Utah couldn't even use him for his fouls.

Taking out Spencer was a blow.

The series finale came down to Malone and Olajuwon playing nearly dead-even, with the result being broadly decided by the Drexler stat and, specifically and simply, six more points in surrounding talent to Hakeem's side versus Malone's.

Was the first of three straight playoffs Utah lost a series with championship implications by four points.

PHX V Houston

Charles: 22.3 ppg, 13.2 reb, 3.1 ast, 1.1 stl, 0.8 blk

Olajuwon: 29.6 ppg, 9 reb, 3.7 ast, 0.8 stl, 2.3 blk

Two sides to this: on one hand the Suns and Barkley face the ignominy of blowing a three-one series lead; on the other hand, this might have happened because of Barkley's health.

Is that an excuse or a compounding point? I think it's open to debate, specifically because of Chuck's known tendencies to blow off consistent conditioning.

The Suns also lost Danny Manning for the season long before this series took place. He was their second leading scorer in the limited time he played. With Manning, the Suns had the best record in the league at 36-9. Arguably the most loaded team in the league -- on paper.

The stat to Phoenix's side that sticks is the combined scoring of Barkley and Johnson; not just conflated and, then, aggregate, but in the balancing. When they played well, together, the Suns won. When one was off, even if the other was playing lights out, they lost.

Kevin Johnson was monstrous in the scoring department. 2 games over 40, four games of at least 28, and five of 20+.

Game 1, the Suns win with 21, 13 and 5 from KJ with Barkley putting up 26 and 11. Game 2 sees Barkley go for 30 and 9, KJ follows up with 29 and 12, and the Suns lead 2-0.

Game 3 is where the trouble starts. Barkley goes 0-10, scores 5 and sits out the entire fourth quarter of a Houston blowout; plausibly, he was starting to ail physically here. KJ puts up 14.

Game 4, KJ takes the game by the throat, and it suddenly appears that this is the case for Phoenix's side in the overall series. Done? One would think so, after going up 3-1 off of a 43 point, 9 assist night from Kevin. Round throws in 26 and 9.

Game 5 looks like a closeout. It's actually time for the Rockets to rise. KJ throws in 28, but Barkley only scores 17.

Game 6 is symmetrical: this time Barkley scores at a prodigious rate, while Johnson goes MIA. Even with Barkley going for 34 and 14, it's not enough; not when Johnson only puts up 14.

Portentously, Barkley looks beat down near the end of the game.

Game 7, in retrospect, was a funeral procession for a franchise's title hopes, and maybe a career. Both were probably noted at the time, but the latter is an example of bait and switch soap opera placement: with all the focus being Barkley, it's Kevin Johnson who is about to fall off a cliff, with the NBA audience being left with collective amnesia as to his career and worth. Hey, it was sweeps season.

The way the game plays out, it certainly looks like it's Barkley that's done. Cracks are showing on the court and on the sidelines, with Westphal demanding that KJ, not Barkley, be the focus of the offense in the second half.

Can this game be blamed on Westphal? Statistical tracking would say yes.

Kevin Johnson comes through individually. 46 points. Barkley only puts up 18, but manages 23 rebounds. All on one leg.

Key to this game comes in the third quarter. With the Suns up by 9, the Rockets make a 22-11 run.

Again, Clyde Drexler is the key figure, while Olajuwon is on the bench for the entire Houston run. By the end of the third Houston has the lead by a slim margin of 81-79.

They will win the game by an even slimmer sum. One point.

1 point.

Think about that the next time you analyze Barkley's career placement versus Olajuwon's. The smaller the number separating, the bigger the moment.

Or maybe just zero-sum. Winner versus loser. Health versus ailment.

People play and reference that Stockton three over and over again. It is the more dramatic and iconic shot in Barkley's career; almost his Ehlo or Russel moment. But this series, forgotten, has got to play over and over in Chuck's mind as well.

Gut-wrenching.

SA V Houston

Robinson: 23.8 ppg, 11.3 reb, 2.6 ast, 1.5 stl, 2.2 blk

Olajuwon: 35.3 ppg, 12.5 reb, 5 ast, 1.3 stl, 4.2 blk

There has been talk of Robinson lacking help and being swarmed in this series, and I'd have more sympathy if film and stats didn't point to outcome being tilted by Robinson's lacking skillsets on, get this, both sides of the court.

On offense, Robinson was trying to play against a collapsing defense with, far too often, faceup drives that either left him with a shot he was incapable of making or a bad pass that was a likely turnover. He had no back to the basket game which, against a defense that's by definition and design paint-oriented, made it the wrong answer to a remedial math question. A real post player, even with a swarming defense coming at or for him, can find a way to make reads and create some positive result in individual or team counterpoint; Robinson spent the series panicked, because his athleticism could not solve the problem.

He'd go into the post, receive a pass, and pass it back out almost immediately. Why? Because nothing easy would come, and he had no post game to work with.

His jumper was fundamentally shaky. He had no real go-to moves. He wasn't good at all at battling for position, ala Shaq or Karl, and then making an explosive move from the low post to the rim. He was mediocre at sealing his man and receiving a lob. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And, as nail (in the coffin, through the heart) or lynchpin to all this, he was a lacking passer. With the defense in a collapse mode, you would think that Robinson's assist numbers would be decent, yet he produced at the worst rate of any of Olajuwon's post opponents with a 2.6 average. But that's only half the story, as he averaged 6.25 turnovers over the 4 losses.

The two games the Spurs won, he averaged one turnover. His assist/TO ratio in the four losses was a 0.42. By comparison, Malone averaged a 1.36 on A/TO ratio, Barkley a 1.15, Olajuwon (in the SA series, in this case) a 1.19 and Shaq a 1.19.

So we've got another key stat as to W/Ls, and it's centered, appropriately, on Robinson.

Now, a mediocre or even bad passing big man could be defensible if he had fundamental talent for any real type of post play. Unfortunately, this is a non-starter for Robinson.

Meaning that another star, having a ridiculously bad series passing the ball, could a find a way to create offense for his team that doesn't lead directly back to his statline; rotational feeds, where it's passed out of the post and moved around would be an easy example. But because of Robinson's other limitations, this type of offensive creation is not likely to be there.

All this, and I haven't mentioned the most staggering ratio in the series yet. 11.5. The difference in scoring average. How did this happen?

Well, it would be reasonable enough to expect that this was a result of Robinson's lacking offensive aresenal.

But that's only part, maybe half, the story. A ratio within a ratio, i.e. offense+(-?)defense.

Shocking as it may seem, a frontcourt with Dennis Rodman and David Robinson gave up the most points in the playoffs to Olajuwon. This is in comparison to a Utah frontcourt with Karl Malone and a non-NBA Center, Charles Barkley and Joe Kleine, and Shaq plus Horace Grant.

How can this be? I think it falls within the same paradigm as Robinson's offensive flaws: a mix of mental frailty and lack of fundamentals.

For all the hype about Robinson's defense, Olajuwon did whatever he wanted in this series. He didn't have it as easy against Barkley/Klein/AC, Shaq or Malone+a-guy-from-the-local-Y.

If Robinson's defense is not overhyped, then there has to be a dichotomy here. Either between regular season worth and playoff failure, or man to man post defense as opposed to being the Center in a team scheme.

Robinson was wonderful at rim protection, which was mostly timing and innate physical gifts. But positional defense requires a lot more. It's a game of chess, and Robinson was playing checkers against Bobby Fischer in the post. He wasn't good at countering Olajuwon's footwork (and considering the hype about his defense, isn't that another negative?), he often let him set up too deep, and he would give Olajuwon way too much room, as a last defense (bomb shelter D), on his 15 foot jumper.

If Robinson deserves praise for his award-laden regular season, then the matchup game means he should be excoriated, rather than exhonerated, for his post-season play.

Second year in a row, and again at his absolute peak, he allows himself to be dominated on both ends. In 94, against Malone, the ratio was 9. This time it's over 11.

Dreadful. Disgusting.

Orlando V Houston

Shaq: 28 PPG, 12 reb, 6.25 ast, .25 stl, 2.5 blk

Olajuwon: 32.75, 11.5 reb, 5.5 ast, 2 stl, 2 blk

This series was really boring, unless you look at it in the context of Nick Anderson.

Then it's kind of fascinating.

It's not just that Nick Anderson blew FT's. Or choked. It's the carryover. Orlando looked like the better team for most of game 1, and Nick Anderson's statline is more than respectable.

Talk about zero-sum. It's not the choke of the moment, it's the fact, then, that it's so far beyond that moment. Watch a guy's psyche, and perhaps his team's, blow up over the course of 40 seconds.

Nick Anderson's inability only starts with the misses. What's more striking is that he couldn't move past it, a sure sign of mental weakness. And the same could be said for Orlando.

Did they ever look like they were seriously in it again after that?

You can try laying that on Shaq, but once again he was awesome in a sweep. 28 points. 12 boards. Almost 7 assists.

He's in his third year, and he's playing the league's best frontcourt player real tight.

It's the contrast between a guy like Shaq and Robinson. The Magic crashed harder, but it does not trace back to their best player's performance.

Losing is sometimes unavoidable, no matter individual greatness.

And that's at the center (ha ha) of my argument here. Matchups, who played well and who didn't.

Robinson fails on that scale. Malone and Shaq pass.

Olajuwon? Come on. Fait accimpli.

But what proved Olajuwon was the best? The context and carrythrough of head to head matchups won, not just team outcome. By that same standard, I have trouble seeing Robinson as the superior player, certainly overall but, yet still, in this season, to names like Malone and Shaq, two players that actually played damned good basketball against Olajuwon and the Rockets.

Otherwise, we're just looking at the serendipity of playoff brackets. Even there, Robinson fails. For if a supporter of his cries "if not for Olajuwon" I reply, what about Malone? Robinson is in the same XXX position at that point.

And despite regular season stats (after all, those looked decent against Hakeem and Mail as well), I have no faith that Robinson would have been dominant or even very good in a contrasted matchup with Shaq.

[semi-sentient]

1994-95 Candidates

Regular Season

Code: Select all

         GP  MP    PTS   TS%   REB    AST  STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Hakeem   82  39.6  27.8  .563  10.8   3.5  1.8  3.4  3.3  10.7  26.0
D-Rob    81  38.0  27.6  .602  10.8   2.9  1.7  3.2  2.9  17.5  29.1
Shaq     79  37.0  29.3  .588  11.4   2.7  0.9  2.4  2.6  14.0  28.6
Pippen   79  38.2  21.4  .559   8.1   5.2  2.9  1.1  3.4  11.8  22.6
Malone   82  38.1  26.7  .590  10.6   3.5  1.6  1.0  2.9  13.8  25.1
Stockton 82  35.0  14.7  .651   3.1  12.3  2.4  0.3  3.3  13.9  23.3
Drexler  76  35.9  21.8  .577   6.3   4.8  1.8  0.6  2.4  11.7  22.4

Post Season

Code: Select all

         GP  MP    PTS   TS%   REB    AST  STL  BLK  TOV  WS   PER
===================================================================
Hakeem   22  42.2  33.0  .533  10.3   4.5  1.2  2.8  3.1  2.8  26.7
D-Rob    15  41.5  25.3  .536  12.1   3.1  1.5  2.6  3.7  2.3  22.6
Shaq     21  38.3  25.7  .595  11.9   3.3  0.9  1.9  3.5  3.0  26.1
Pippen   10  39.6  17.8  .549   8.6   5.8  1.4  1.0  2.7  1.2  18.9
Malone    5  43.2  30.2  .550  13.2   3.8  1.4  0.4  2.8  0.5  24.6
Stockton  5  38.6  17.8  .546   3.4  10.2  1.5  0.2  2.8  0.4  19.5
Drexler  22  38.6  20.5  .587   7.0   5.0  1.5  0.7  2.0  3.0  21.1

Awards Recognition

Code: Select all

         MVP     DPOY     All-NBA     All-Defense
=================================================
Hakeem   5th     3rd      3rd         ---
D-Rob    1st     4th      1st         1st
Shaq     2nd     ---       2nd         ---
Malone   3rd     ---       1st         ---
Pippen   7th     2nd      1st         1st
Stockton 8th     ---       1st         2nd
Drexler  14th    ---      3rd         ---

Early Rankings:

1. Hakeem Olajuwan - Great all around season, and get's the nod over D-Rob for destroying the Spurs and winning a championship in dominating fashion.
2. Shaquille O'Neal - Great all around season, and while not quite the defender that Robinson was, he managed to do better against The Dream in their match up. Not much more he could have done to get the Magic to the promised land, particularly with all that choking that Anderson was doing.
3. David Robinson - Great regular season, but got his ass dominated by The Dream in the playoffs. For all the talk of his great defense, it seems to me that he doesn't really have much impact when it matters most.
4. Scottie Pippen - Probably the best all around wing player in the game this season. Solid season, and gets the nod over Malone for his defensive contributions.
5. Karl Malone - Great RS, with an early exit from the PS despite having HC advantage. Not really his fault though, but it once again shows just how important Stockton is to the team. I generally have a hard time separating Stockton and Malone, so I'll put Karl at #5 just ahead of Stockton who gets an HM.

HM: John Stockton - Look at his RS TS% -- insane! Had his production/efficiency not fallen off in the PS I'd have ranked him over Malone. He should have had more MVP consideration as well. Over the next few years, Stockton and Malone are pretty much going to be interchangeable in the rankings because they have equal value, IMO.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I don't see Pippen making my Top 5. He wasn't a Top 5 RS nor PS player.

[lorak]

kaima,

1. This Project is about whole year– 82 games of regular season + X games from post season. So you can’t cherry picking games and on sample of one game (elimination game – BTW, in playoffs EVERY GAME is equally important) or one series evaluate value of the player. That’s not the way science works. Never.

Besides, why you don’t say anything about series against Denver, when Mutombo played only 28 MPG because he can’t guard Robinson (Deke had 15 fouls in 3 games). And Mutombo was that year DPOY…. Or why don’t say anything about matchup in 2nd round when Vlade Divac from .568 TS% player in RS became .472 TS% against Robinson?

2. Robinson’s defense. Olajuwon played very good against him, but for example Shaq in the finals also played very good against Hakeem. Does it mean that Olajuwon was bad defender? No, that’s only means that Hakeem or Shaq were so good offensive players.

Besides, Spurs defense in 1995 playoffs was second to all time great defense of Knicks. And Robinson was the most important part of that defense.

3. Karl Malone had John Stockton, Shaq had Penny Hardaway and David Robinson had Avery Johnson…

[kaima]

kaima,

1. This Project is about whole year– 82 games of regular season + X games from post season. So you can’t cherry picking games and on sample of one (elimination game – BTW, in playoffs EVERY GAME is equally important) game or one series evaluate value of the player.

We're supposed to analyze the season. Analysis comes in brackets, and different sample sizes.

That’s not the way science works.

Again, science is about sum and part.

Is it wrong to look at the gametes that make up a zygote? .

Besides, why you don’t say anything about series against Denver, when Mutombo played only 28 MPG because he can’t guard Robinson (Deke had 15 fouls in 3 games). And Mutombo was that year DPOY…. Or why don’t say anything about matchup in 2nd round when Vlade Divac from .568 TS% player in RS became .472 TS% against Robinson?

I also didn't analyze Shaq versus the Eastern bracket.

Because, I was looking at the season through matchup contexts that flowed from the most dominant player in the league.

Further, it appears that you now have an interest in "cherry picking".

One point to the next, you've undermined your own standard.

And, from that, nobody would confuse Vlade Divac or Mutumbo with Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Shaq, Olajuwon or, for that matter, David Robinson.

Oh. Wait. I think you just did.

2. Robinson’s defense. Olajuwon played very good against him, but for example Shaq in the finals also played very good against Hakeem.

He put up 28 a game. Great series.

But that's not the same as putting up 35.3 a game versus 23.8. The ratio on both ends is frighteningly bad for Robinson.

Does it mean that Olajuwon was bad defender? No, that’s only means that Hakeem or Shaq were so good offensive players.

My question remains, however rhetorical, how is it that Robinson is giving up the most points in the playoffs to Hakeem?

3. Karl Malone had John Stockton, Shaq had Penny Hardaway and David Robinson had Avery Johnson…

Did John Stockton and Anfernee Hardaway give Malone/Shaq a post game, or was that G-d?

Hard to believe that basketball's Ned Flanders was overlooked in such a way by the man upstairs.

[ronnymac2]

David Stern- Your last point could explain the team results, which I don't believe are that important to anybody anyway. Robinson individually didn't play well. Why? All the faults of his game that Kaima pointed out. That's on him.

How that doesn't affect everybody's vote, especially since it directly affected his individual play in the post-season THIS YEAR, is what I'm wondering as I look at everybody's early rankings.

My preliminary has Olajuwon/O'neal/Malone/Robinson/Barkley. No offense to Pippen, who I enjoy overrating, but.....he's not on the level of these five in their prime. Drexler doesn't belong either. He was great- probably deserves an honorable mention. Probably a top 10 player in the league this year. I don't see his 95 season being better than Barkley though.


Somebody has to argue Robinson over Malone. I'll take Malone over Robinson, prime vs. prime, in all-time rankings (where I put major emphasis on who the better player was). I see no reason why Robinson should go ahead this year.

[lorak]

Is it wrong to look at the gametes that make up a zygote? .

But you are looking only on one (elimination game) or several (one playoffs series) gametes. When in fact we have to look at all gametes – and in this case it’s 82+X*PS games.

But that's not the same as putting up 35.3 a game versus 23.8. The ratio on both ends is frighteningly bad for Robinson.

You miss the point. So another example: 1994 Hakeem against Knicks. That was one of the all time greatest defensive teams ever. Hakeem was guarded by Ewing, Oakley and Mason. Still, he played very good against so good defense. Does it mean that Kncicks were bad defensive team? Wait, why I ask – by your “logic” it clearly means that.

[lorak]

David Stern- Your last point could explain the team results, which I don't believe are that important to anybody anyway. Robinson individually didn't play well. Why?

Didn’t play well?
24 PPG, .553 TS%, 11 RPG – and that’s only against Hakeem.

Overall in playoffs he was one of the best players in the league – on both ends, for offense look at advanced stats, for defense look as Spurs DRtg – San Antonio defense (with Robinson as anchor) were second to all time great Knicks defense.

re: Penny and Stockton vs Avery and their value to big man

Example – do you know how much Magic helped KAJ’s career? During whole 80s he was still very efficient because he had Magic who created opportunities for him. That same is with Malone and Stockton or Shaq who always had some all time great guard – Penny, Wade and Kobe. When you are a big man and have so good guard, who is excellent with the ball, your life is MUCH easier than when you have Avery Johnson.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Somebody has to argue Robinson over Malone. I'll take Malone over Robinson, prime vs. prime, in all-time rankings (where I put major emphasis on who the better player was). I see no reason why Robinson should go ahead this year.

Well, Robinson was much better in the RS, and even Stockton was arguably better than Malone that year in the RS.

Both guys lost with HCA to the Rockets, but the Spurs did win 2 other series that PS, so I don't see how Malone can be above DRob at all.

[JordansBulls]

Somebody has to argue Robinson over Malone. I'll take Malone over Robinson, prime vs. prime, in all-time rankings (where I put major emphasis on who the better player was). I see no reason why Robinson should go ahead this year.

Well, Robinson was much better in the RS, and even Stockton was arguably better than Malone that year in the RS.

Both guys lost with HCA to the Rockets, but the Spurs did win 2 other series that PS, so I don't see how Malone can be above DRob at all.

Exactly!! Malone was on a 60 win team that went down in round 1 and Robinson had already finished higher in MVP voting anyway.

[JordansBulls]

Drexler was huge in that Utah series. I actually have Game 5 vs Utah in round 1 that year and Game 7 vs Phoenix in the next round that year.

Both Hakeem and Clyde scored 40 in game 4 and in game 5 both scored over 30 on the road.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 50HOU.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 70UTA.html