Retro POY '93-94 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '93-94. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1994.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1994.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1994.html

Topics for '93-94

-Jordan vacates the throne.
-Hakeem and the Rockets squeak into it.
-Big man domination

[Gongxi]

Pretty confident in my top 4. Alphabetically, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Pippen, Robinson. Not sure how I'm gonna have them shake out quite yet, and that 5th is way up in the air right now: Ewing, Malone, Barkley,KJ, Payton, Stockton, etc. Maybe a Derrick Coleman sighting for fun.

[JordansBulls]

1993-1994

1. Hakeem Olajuwon - Won League MVP, Finals MVP and DPOY, 1st Team ALL NBA and Defense

2. David Robinson - Finished 2nd in MVP voting. Led the league in Win Shares, and WS per 48 minutes and PER and PPG. 2nd Team all NBA and Defense

* Got upset in Round 1 (I'm not so sure on this pick, dude was a beast in the season, but was terrible in round 1 against Malone again. I'm just not sure if Malone's playoff was good enough to offset Robinson's dominant season.)

3. Shaquille O'neal - Finished 4th in MVP voting, was 2nd in Win Shares and Win Shares per 48 minutes, Was 2nd in PPG and 2nd in PER on the season.

* Got upset in Round 1

4. Patrick Ewing - Led Team to the Finals, Finished 2nd in Win Shares

5. Scottie Pippen - Finished in 5th in Playoff PER, 4th in season Win Shares, 1st Team ALL NBA and Defense

HM: Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, Reggie Miller

[kaima]

Another season, another Robinson collapse.

This time he again loses with homecourt, while losing 9 points -- NINE POINTS -- off of his league-leading regular season average.

With Malone defending him, he averages 20 points for the playoffs. Karl drops 29 a game on the Spurs. Malone takes Utah to the WCF while averaging 27 and 12 over 16 games.

In the worst way, Robinson was making matchup basketball into something epic from 94-96.

If Robinson gets credit for all those regular season wins, then he should get equal credit for another playoff ouster that involved him playing terribly.

I've gotta take off. I'll go more in-depth on this matchup, as well as stuff like the Sonics, Barkley, Suns-Rockets, some Jazz-Rockets, Knicks-Bulls, and maybe some Knicks-Rockets later.

[Gongxi]

What is your obsession with David Robinson? Did you go to West Point or something?

If Robinson gets credit for all those regular season wins, then he should get equal credit for another playoff ouster that involved him playing terribly.

But the regular season and playoffs aren't equal sample sizes, so why would you weigh them equally?

[lorak]

Because of small sample (only 4 games) averages don’t tell a lot.

The fact is Robinson had two very good games:
G1 – 25, 8, 7, 3 blk, .529 FG%
G4 – 27, 12, 4, 2 blk, .524 FG%; Stockton was amazing in that game.

one decent:
G3 – 16, 11, .381 FG% ( 8/21 FG); it was a blowout, no other Spur even show up, so Robinson still was the best Spurs player.

and one awful:
G2 – 12, 9, 5 blk, .143 FG% (2/14 FG), but Malone had 7/25 FG so if Robinson defended him (I don’t know, didn’t saw this game) we should give him credit for that.

Similar story is with Shaq – two very good games and one bad.

BTW,
Malone had .505 TS% against Hakeem. For example year earlier Robinson had .553 TS% and they both score at similar volume. And of course one of them had Stockton = at least 1-2 extra easy field goals.

My early ranking:
1. Hakeem
and that’s all what I’m sure this year

[Sedale Threatt]

No, by his standards (30 ppg, 11 rpg, 5 apg, 3 bpg, 51 FG%) that's one average game, one below average game, and two games ranging from bad to horrendous. It was not a good series for David, no matter how you slice it.

[ItsMillerTime]

Hakeem at No.1 is a definite for me (and hopefully everyone else). After that, I know Shaq and Admiral will make my list, but the last two spots are up in the air. Malone, Pippen, Kemp, Ewing, Barkley, and Payton all have good arguments. This is a pretty tough season to rank, excluding Hakeem at 1.

[lorak]

No, by his standards (30 ppg, 11 rpg, 5 apg, 3 bpg, 51 FG%) that's one average game, one below average game, and two games ranging from bad to horrendous. It was not a good series for David, no matter how you slice it.

So in 1994 PS Hakeem had about 10 below average games... but that doesn't change the fact that most of them were still very good.

[ronnymac2]

I believe Karl Malone had the flu in games 3 and 4 of the WCF. I watched game 5 recently, and the announcers said he was suffering from the flu in those two games but was feeling better. He played very well in gm 5.

He actually played okay in games 3 and 4 overall, but his shooting slumped down a bit. I credit the heart and the rebounding, but I'm not sure if I'll dock him for that. Do I count it as an injury?

Payton isn't there. Stockton was never a top 5 player in the league, and this year is no exception. Penny was just a rookie. Jordan left completely.

Anybody know what happened to Clyde Drexler this year? He doesn't seem himself this year- at least statistically.

No order....Olajuwon, Malone, O'neal, Robinson, Barkley, and Ewing are on my list right now. Scottie Pippen had one hell of a year, too. He's going to at least get an honorable mention. Maybe he can sneak into my top 5.

[Sedale Threatt]

So in 1994 PS Hakeem had about 10 below average games... but that doesn't change the fact that most of them were still very good.

He had about eight games where he failed to reach his major averages, and only two tor three that I would consider flagrantly crappy. That's as many in an entire playoff run as David had in one series.

[An Unbiased Fan]

So Hakeem is clearly #1. MVP, Finals MVP, DPOY, All-NBA/All-D 1st, that pretty much says it all.

Other guys in the mix for #2-#5: Pippen, DRob, Stockton, Malone, KJ, Barkley, Kemp, Shaq, Ewing

Pippen is going to be hard to place. Much of his impact isn't reflected statistaclly. So comparing him to someone like Shaq, who had great stats, but not the same level of leadership on the court, nor defense of Pippen will be tricky.

[Doctor MJ]

No, by his standards (30 ppg, 11 rpg, 5 apg, 3 bpg, 51 FG%) that's one average game, one below average game, and two games ranging from bad to horrendous. It was not a good series for David, no matter how you slice it.

So in 1994 PS Hakeem had about 10 below average games... but that doesn't change the fact that most of them were still very good.

Eh, I tend to think people go a little crazy against Robinson, however, this "it's still a good game for most players" is not a good argument. Robinson's not being compared to most players, he's being compared with other superstars.

[shawngoat23]

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. David Robinson
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Patrick Ewing

Turned out to be exact order of the MVP voting, but not intentionally.

[lorak]

No, by his standards (30 ppg, 11 rpg, 5 apg, 3 bpg, 51 FG%) that's one average game, one below average game, and two games ranging from bad to horrendous. It was not a good series for David, no matter how you slice it.

So in 1994 PS Hakeem had about 10 below average games... but that doesn't change the fact that most of them were still very good.

Eh, I tend to think people go a little crazy against Robinson, however, this "it's still a good game for most players" is not a good argument. Robinson's not being compared to most players, he's being compared with other superstars.

I agree, but games
25, 8, 7, 3 blk, .529 FG%
and
27, 12, 4, 2 blk, .524 FG%;

are good for superstars in playoffs. Not great, not amazing, but very good.

In 1994 post season only Hakeem (6 times), Malone (2 times), Barkley and Ewing (both one time) had games like that: at least 26 pts, 10 rbs, 2 blk and .520 FG%

[Doctor MJ]

So in 1994 PS Hakeem had about 10 below average games... but that doesn't change the fact that most of them were still very good.

Eh, I tend to think people go a little crazy against Robinson, however, this "it's still a good game for most players" is not a good argument. Robinson's not being compared to most players, he's being compared with other superstars.

I agree, but games
25, 8, 7, 3 blk, .529 FG%
and
27, 12, 4, 2 blk, .524 FG%;

are good for superstars in playoffs. Not great, not amazing, but very good.

In 1994 post season only Hakeem (6 times), Malone (2 times), Barkley and Ewing (both one time) had games like that: at least 26 pts, 10 rbs, 2 blk and .520 FG%

Hmm. You can make a group look more select than it is by having exact requirements like that. Let's look at games in those playoffs where Robinson's 2nd best game score (according to b-r.com - 21.1) got equaled or surpassed:

Hakeem - 15 (16 of 23)
Malone - 9 (of 16)
Barkley - 5 (of 10)
Ewing - 9 (of 25)

Now the number of times these guys beat his best game (24.7):

Hakeem - 11
Malone - 6
Barkley - 3
Ewing - 5

Then keep in mind that in Robinson's other two games he was totally horrendous. Seems pretty clear that from a generic stat comparison, Robinson was playing worse than Hakeem, Malone, and Barkley. Now you can argue that Robinson's non-box score impact puts him ahead of people, but no, Robinson wasn't putting up numbers like a top tier guy in the post-season.


Keeping in mind that Robinson just barely beat that threshold both times, and his two bad games

[Optimism Prime]

[


So in 1994 PS Hakeem had about 10 below average games... but that doesn't change the fact that most of them were still very good.

Eh, I tend to think people go a little crazy against Robinson, however, this "it's still a good game for most players" is not a good argument. Robinson's not being compared to most players, he's being compared with other superstars.

I agree, but games
25, 8, 7, 3 blk, .529 FG%
and
27, 12, 4, 2 blk, .524 FG%;

are good for superstars in playoffs. Not great, not amazing, but very good.

In 1994 post season only Hakeem (6 times), Malone (2 times), Barkley and Ewing (both one time) had games like that: at least 26 pts, 10 rbs, 2 blk and .520 FG%

And Robinson had one. The first game you listed was under the points and rebounds requirement.

[Baller 24]

What Pippen did this season is great, but slightly overrated IMO, Karl Malone was easily the better player compared to him when you factor in everything, including the playoff dominance.

The easy four: Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, O'neal (Olajuwon being one, the others being in no order yet from me), then you've got Malone and Pippen to worry about as the final two-spots IMO.

Malone: 25/4/11/1.5/1.5/TSP 55%, Utah won only 53 game that season, and went all the way to the WCF losing to the Rockets, facing a tough stretch of games against Robinson's Spurs (who he completely annihilated and made a fool of, with no HCA), took the upset Nuggets to 7 games, and finally the WCF where his team lost the Rockets, while throughout the playoff stretch he did 27/12/3 on TSP of 53% The Jazz had two-all-stars including Malone, and in the playoffs Stockton's numbers DECLINED (significantly shooting the ball at just 45% including 16% from behind the arc)

Pippen on the other hand was solid, but again slightly gets overrated for this particular season, his playoff numbers decline (especially when it comes to shooting the rock), he was playing in a system that was coming off of a championship season, most of the players that season stepped up their overall game, they found a way to replicate a little bit of the offensive success they had in the previous season by not just using the best of Pippen, but also the rest of the players. They had three all-star players that season, Horce Grant was enjoying career highs of 15pts/11reb/3.4ast/1.1stl/1.2blk and he enjoyed his first and only all-star trip. BJ Armstrong was a starter in the all-star game that season, him too was enjoying his only trip to the all-star game, while setting career highs in almost every department. Was solid in the playoffs too.

It's looking like Malone to me right now, unless I get persuaded.

EDIT: Malone is definitely in actually, he could even make an argument for 3rd, if we're really taking the playoffs into account, because Robinson failed, measurably in the playoffs to Malone, with home-court advantage. O'neal was solid too, but again in the playoffs not so good. Malone could make a case as high as third for me.

[TMACFORMVP]

Yeah, I'm not so sure if Pippen is a lock for the top five spot.

Hakeem is obviously first, was the MVP, DPOY, and Finals MVP. He was dominant in regular season, and devastating in the playoffs. I don't see an argument for anyone else to be honest. I also feel Robinson had the better individual season, he was statistically more impressive, and just as imposing defensively, if not better (averaged 30/11/5 with nearly two steals and over 3 blocks is absolutely ridiculous).

In the regular season, you could make the claim he was better than Hakeem, but playoffs once again become a factor when Robinson shoots 41% from the field, and lose in four games to the Jazz with Malone doing roughly 29/12 in the series on just over 48%. In the next series against the Nuggets, Malone aside from Game 4 was dominant as well including a 31 point, 14 rebound, and 6 assist performance in the decisive Game 7. In the WCF he didn't shoot the ball as efficiently, but in terms of volume wasn't too far off from his production.

On the season, Karl averaged 25/11/4 on roughly 50% and a career high in blocked shots. I'm trying to see if that would be enough to put him over Ewing, or even Robinson.

Ewing went to the finals, and had a monster Game 7 in the ECF against the Pacers. And IIRC, it included what would in turn be the game saving/winning basket to change the fortunes for the Knicks. But on the other side he shot a paltry 43% from the floor in the playoffs, and was terrible against the Rockets (offensively) in the Finals. I mean, when we look at in that respect, Malone lost to the same team in the WCF, and performed more admirably than Ewing did. To be fair, Ewing was a definite force defensively in that series, especially on the weakside. In the regular season, he anchored an absolutely elite defense, but statistically didn't do much to separate himself from Karl. In fact, they'd be near identical, Ewing possibly having the slight edge due to his considerably better shot-blocking numbers.

27/12 in the post season for 16 Games on 47% versus 22/12 in the post season for 25 games on 44% from the field...

I'm leaning Karl, but Ewing's defensive impact is still swaying me back and forth on that one.

Barkley had a nice season, and had a huge impact, but it was clearly in decline from 93, and did miss 17 games in the regular season (in which the Suns went 8-9). And in the playoff series against the Rockets, he shot poorly from the field on the road, including two games under 41% and a Game 5 clunker going 7 for 21.

Shaq is the other guy. The thing about him is that he got swept in the playoffs, so he's in a similar boat with Robinson with dominant statistics, even better than Hakeem on raw value, but not enough post-season success. Shaq was dominant though, 29/13 with 3 blocks on 60% from the floor. That's absolutely ridiculous. But in the playoffs, his FG% dipped (51% for him is a 9% decrease), and as did his volume barely averaging 21 PPG. And he had Penny, whom while was a rookie, was an impressive 19/7/7 in that series against the Pacers. That's sort of concerning in that the Magic won 50 games, 5 games less than the Bulls despite Pippen playing in nine less games.

Then of course is Pippen, he had an amazing season, leading the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan, and what many believe a bad call away from reaching the NBA Finals. He did miss 10 games though, but it's partly made up in the respect that the Bulls went 4-6 in that stretch. He did roughly 22/9/6 with elite defense all while shooting 49% from the floor. That's impressive. In the playoffs however, he shot only 43% from the floor and 26% from distance. Granted the likes of Shaq, and D-Rob underperformed in the playoffs, it seems OK that at least Pippen was able to maintain the same volume of production, roughly 22/9/5.

I do think his cast gets underrated though, Grant's impact was felt immediately after he left the next season, and did 15/11 on the season. And BJ Armstrong was sort of a past day Mo Williams with that all-star berth. Kukoc was also good coming off the bench, putting up nearly 16/6/5 PER36 minutes (11/4/3 in 20 minutes). Not a terrific supporting cast, but not terrible like some make it out to be to try to pimp out Pippen's value to diminish Jordan's.

Is this enough though to go over the likes of Shaq, Robinson, Malone, and Ewing?

I'll be straight, and tell you I'd take all four over him in general, but did they all have the better seasons?

Malone, I feel was comparable enough in the regular season (not as many wins, and I'm not sure impact), but Malone was considerably better in the playoffs (27/12), and advanced further as well losing to the champs.

Ewing is in the same boat, I feel they were comparable enough in the regular season, the Knicks actually winning more games, while Ewing was the better of the two when they faced off (note: I understand they didn't guard each other, but in terms of who pushed their team more):

Scottie Pippen

Code: Select all

Game One: 24/4/7 on 7-19 from the field.
Game Two: 22/4/2 on 5-15 from the field.
Game Three: 25/7/4 on 10-20 from the field.
Game Four: 25/8/6 on 10-21 from the field.
Game Five: 23/4/4 on 8-18 from the field.
Game Six: 13/11/5 on 5-16 from the field.
Game Seven: 20/16/5 on on 8-22 from the field.

21.7 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 4.7 APG on .404 from the field.

Patrick Ewing

Code: Select all

Game One: 18/12/3 on 7-16 from the field.
Game Two: 26/9/3 on 9-12 from the field.
Game Three: 34/9/4 on 14-19 from the field.
Game Four: 18/10/2 on 7-14 from the field.
Game Five: 20/13/1 on 9-21 from the field.
Game Six: 26/14/1 on 9-18 from the field.
Game Seven: 18/17/6 on 7-17 from the field.

22.8 PPG, 12.0 RPG, 2.8 APG on .529 from the field.

Another note: Both of them actually shot roughly the same percentage from the floor in the regular season, so Ewing in fact stepped up his game, while Pippens efficiency dropped greatly.

I think I'd take Ewing.

Now, Shaq, and D-Rob didn't fare as much team success as Pippen, but is those extra 6-7 games worth more than how much more dominant Shaq and DRob were in the regular season. I want to say it's closer in the regular season, especially considering Pippen's team fared such great heights without Jordan, but I can't. DRob and Shaq were 30/13 big men that had big impacts defensively, especially Robinson.

I have these five over Pippen, but now it's the order.

I think I'd have Robinson over Shaq, due to defense and passing. But could it potentially be argued that Malone was better than the both of them? More team success than the both of them, and definite better play in the post-season as well. I think I might have Karl over Shaq because of the defensive defensive impact being not as large as it is between both Robinson and Malone.

But I also can't help the fact that Malone dominated Robinson in the playoffs once again. As previously mentioned, 29/12 in that series on roughly 49%. I mean when Robinson played well, the Spurs won, or in the case of Game 4 were close. In the two games (2 and 3), in which he shoots 10-35, they get blown out.

I mean, I didn't come into this thread expecting to strongly consider Malone for the #2 spot after Hakeem, but honestly, I'm not sure I'd be opposed to that, in fact, he might BE my #2 guy. Then what about Ewing, all these guys are so close, I'm just beginning to rant.

Check out Ewing's stats PRIOR to the finals:

Code: Select all

23.0 PPG, 11.4 RPG on .473 from the field.

So as I was sort of generalizing, or downplaying Ewing's post-season run, he was far more efficient prior to getting shat on by Hakeem. While it's obvious those finals should count in his overall statistics, that's a better post-season run than guys like Shaq/D-Rob, while being better in the playoffs.

I think all these guys right now are too close for comfort with me.

I'm leaning towards Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Malone, and Shaq as a sort of order, but honestly the last four can be switched. But considering defensive impact and team success in Ewing's case, it's looking more and more like Shaq will be 5th on my list (which is ridiculous considering the sort of regular season he had - arguably better than #1 Hakeem). But then I go back to "Robinson should be right next to Shaq," but it seems weird putting both Ewing and Malone over both when they were not the better players in the regular season. Ugh, back to the same place I was in before.

So now, I have only for sure, Hakeem being #1. I'll refrain from voting right now, but Robinson will be over Shaq (should only be one spot), while Ewing could/should conceivably be over Malone due to the defensive impact, and similar play throughout three rounds of the playoffs. Neither are the better players than Shaq or Robinson, but team success, and better post-season play counts as a large factor as well. Sort of leaning Ewing, Malone, DRob, and Shaq, but will refrain for right now.

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2.
3.
4.
5.

[Baller 24]

Don't have much time during the day anymore, I've been super busy, but with the last post by TMACFORMVP, I think I've got my top 5, I know this is a tad bit early, but I don't necessarily have the time to keep coming here and checking the thread 5-6 times a day like I usually have been.

1) Olajuwon
2) Ewing
3) Malone
4) Robinson
5) O'neal

-- Olajuwon is an easy one I think, there's really not much explanation needed as many have posted their valid reasoning.

-- Ewing was solid, like TMACFORMVP stated, he anchored one of the more solid and physical defenses throughout the 90s, his impact defensively was absolutely huge. His efficiency has dropped, but if you look at the finals, the guy did a fantastic job on Olajuwon, even though he himself was solid, the Knicks were honestly a John Starks "good" shooting performance away from winning the finals. Ewing was absolutely solid from an impact standpoint, and has some huge rebounding/defensive efforts throughout his playoff standpoint. I'm giving him the nod here, despite how "good" O'neal and Robinson were in the RS, their playoff campaigns weren't necessarily there.

-- I've said enough on Malone I think, another standout season, and he up-ed his game when it came to the playoffs, threw Robinson around, played well against the Nuggets, and didn't disappear against Olajuwon, BTW he did this while the show-called 2nd option in John Stockton dropped his production when it came time in the playoffs, significantly when regarding efficiency.

-- Robinson and O'neal are interchangeable, but IMO Robinson had a better RS, more impact filled from a defensive standpoint, while O'neal was solid in the same reguard, getting swept hurts his case a lot, and while he was young and not the same kind of player, it wasn't his best playoff performance to say the least.

I've said a lot about Pippen, don't think he's on the same level as the guys mentioned above IMO, gets a tad bit overrated for the season. Pippen was himself just like any other season, just because the Bulls had good team success he gets looked at so highly, because of course there's no Michael Jordan. Still though, I'll say it again, many factors played into the Bulls winning 55 games in '94, and although Scottie Pippen was a big part of it, he wasn't the main reason(s) for it. Grant and Armstrong arguably had the best seasons of their careers, Phil Jackson was running the team on the same system and style that won the championship the prior season. There's obviously going to be some adjusting going on with arguably the greatest player in the history of the NBA leaving at the time, but adjustments were made by a genius coach, and they played great, but obviously not dominant ball. Like I said, Pippen just doesn't belong in the same group of guys as Malone, Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, and Barkley, he's definitely an honorable mention here, but every one of these players were better throughout the RS, did more, and for some (Ewing and Malone) helped their teams a lot more throughout the playoffs.