2010 NBA Draft Thread: Nets Select Derrick Favors

[vincecarter4pres]

I think you're way too harsh on Cousins.
He is amazingly skilled.
He's insanely dominant.
He's disgustingly efficient.
He's an elite and top notch prospect like we haven't seen in years.


You ever see him play in high school? See any footage of him?
He has a face up and perimeter game, he has a really good handle for a big man and is a very good passer. In college he was asked, or told even, to stay in the low post.
He was also in a running offense and seemed just fine.


It is being entirely disingenuous and unfair to compare him to Eddy Curry or Sean May.

You can see a dramatic and obvious difference in their body types compared to Cousins and it's not even close and I'm talking about a high school or first year Curry and a North Carolina Sean May compared to a current DeMarcus Cousins. Google it.

Cousins is built more like a football player then a basketball player.

Also, these guys can't hold a candle to Cousins as a prospect. They aren't in the same league, they aren't in the same breath.

May was never considered a big time prospect. The allure with him here on the NJ Board had more to do with our craving for a dominant big and our complete lack of one with very little resources to get one, along with the fact he was possibly going to fall to us at a mid round pick. He was never talked about as a high lotto pick. He wasn't that level of prospect, nor player and that's a flat out fact. Our eyes got big. This is not the case, with Cousins, or with Favors. These guys are elite level top prospects.
No comparison except the easy to crack fat boy jokes.

Curry was part of the high school hype that was still going on and if you looked at him deeper it was screamingly obvious he was fatally flawed. He was not heralded by all, he had a severe amount of doubters and detractors, rivaling that of Cousins by far and that was without the red flags of attitude concerns. I was never a fan and many would agree.
Curry was a terrible rebounder, even on the high school level while surrounded by what would be considered dwarfs. He was a terrible passer and had a low BBIQ. People were just enamored by his wide body and post scoring, yet he didn't even dominate in high school and if I recall correctly, he actually digressed his senior year. He was never even an elite defender or shot blocker, even at that paltry level of competition.


I wish there was somewhere to get body fat percentages on a few guys in particular from when they were drafted, those being Pau Gasol, Nene Hilario, David Lee, Zach Randolph, Jermaine O'neal, Eric Dampier, Al Jefferson and Charles Barkley. I bet they were all similar. Lower, but similar and then you have to put that in relation to this kid's total weight.

One guy I found that is right about even with him that was a higher pick and has been reasonable successful is Chris Kaman and Cousins blows him out the water as a prospect.

You can say that's an isolated incident, or an anomaly, but how many truly elite level prospects have ever come out with that high a % either? You can come up with all these so called busts that had a bad body fat percentage similar to Cousins and Kaman, but the fact is most of these guys were C level prospects at best, likely just big bodies that were slated to go late 1st round, to late 2nd.
I'm honestly not trying to put a spin on it, but it's true.
I mean obviously this speaks volumes for his work ethic in a negative light, but it's not like you can just point at body fat percentages with no context and say, "Look, he's fat like these guys, he's going to bust!"

His weight and body fat percentage certainly scares me, but you're taking it to a different extreme and looking over, if not completely disacknowledging one of the most dominant and efficient college big men in such a long time, with freaky physical measurements, a fiery attitude and a mind blowing skillset.


People like to call him a product of John Wall, but truth be told, he was arguably Kentucky's best player, so wouldn't it be equally insulting to then turn around and call John Wall a product of DeMarcus Cousins?

I would have loved to see Favors in the picture perfect set of circumstances that Cousins wound up in, but alas that isn't feasible, so just the same as we almost make that an excuse for Favors, that being the poor guard play and redundant player next to him, are we to take away all of Cousins' accomplishments, his production and potential because of it?


I can understand the dismay for Cousins to an extent, but I think you really have to look deeper at him and at the same time look at the raw ability and results, the obvious beast in front of you and maybe stop worrying so much about what if he balloons up, and what if he gets injured, and what if he doesn't improve his conditioning, just the same way you look at Favors in a positive spin, almost assuming he will dramatically improve every facet of his game not including rebounding and shotblocking and gifting him the result of hitting his ceiling.

Maybe if we're going to be so critical of all the, "What if's?", with Cousins, we should start identifying all the massive, "What if's?", with Favors and be honest with ourselves to all his short comings and what is the most realistic scenario for his short term and long term.

Or maybe to be in a more positive light, we should look at Cousins in the same way we have embraced Favors, and instead of putting him under the microscope, exposing all his faults and flaws, we begin to examine all the pro's, while keeping in mind and staying aware of the con's?

I'm just sayin'...

[enetric]

Before they were drafted:

Anthony Randolph
Weaknesses: A high risk, high reward type pick at this stage of his career. He's got a chance to be special, but in turn a higher than average chance of being a bust as well ... Still very skinny, and may always be on the skinny side ala Tayshaun Prince ... His arms in particular need bulking up ... His NBA readiness isn't quite at the level of some other draft hopefuls ... Must get stronger and tougher both physically and mentally ... Must gain confidence and not get discouraged when things aren't going well ... Still prone to cold nights shooting the ball ... He's a very shy, quiet kid, and the year in Baton Rouge has been great for him but he could really use a second year to continue his maturity and off court development before taking on the bright lights and distractions that exist at the next level. Unfortunately that appears unlikely, as Randolph is said to be leaning towards entering the draft one-and-done ... Maturity question marks will need to be answered in the evaluation process leading up to the draft. ... Shows a solid shooting stroke, but really need to develop more range. The three ball isn't currently in his repertoire (11% on the year with just two makes) ... Will need to tighten his handle and become less turnover prone ...


Al Horford
Strengths: Runs extremely well, able to beat most forwards down the court Is blessed with an NBA ready body and good strength Defensively Horford is a very strong post defender able to use his body strength to disrupt opposing players from setting up Solid shot blocker thanks to his timing and great anticipation skills Attacks the basket with aggression and power A surprising ball handler and passer for his size This enables him to pass out of double teams with relative ease Is physical in the low post and does a good job of drawling fouls from opposing defenders Usually he is able to use his upper body strength and finish after contact Really makes a big impact on the glass where he uses his body strength to box out Has proven to be a very coachable player with a solid work ethic Possesses a calm presence, doesnt let his emotions get the best of him Shows good court awareness, rarely does he try moves that are beyond his skill level Has shown the ability to hit the 12-15 foot jumper from mid-range Maintains good body control and balance absorbing contact well from opposing post defenders Rarely bobbles or fails to catch passes thrown into the post thanks to his soft hands

Weaknesses: Offensively, Horford lacks consistent shooting from mid-range and the perimeter Defensively Horford tends to get into foul trouble at times due to his aggressiveness Although his back to the basket skills are greatly improved, they are still in need of refinement Post footwork can be choppy. By improving this, Horford will become a lot more effective post player Has a tendency to defer to his teammates instead of establishing his presence in the game Still hasnt played with the consistency that you except with someone of his talent Can drift at times during games. Will have one dominating game followed by several so-so performances fails to get rebounds out of his position the way he should Below average free throw shooting prevents him from taking full advantage of the foul shots he creates

Other guys who I can think of that were pretty raw on draft day...

Bynum
Josh Smith
David Lee
Dwight Howard

[enetric]

vc4pres...

First off...you arent going to make a saving grace with body fat % by pulling out every white player you can come up with. Not comparable.

Next, your assesment of the kid is against boys. He is a house. Do I think he is the level of prospect you think he is? No. Do I think he is skilled? Yes. I have said all of that. Nothing I have said says bum. Cant make it...or is any way too harsh.

I have said simple facts. You get told get in shape coming out of HS and you ADD 26 pounds your freshman year while playing at an elite program?

You show many you have a crap attitude? As in...doesnt listen. Easily frustrated?

You are often seen during this so called impressive season litteraly taking plays off and NOT running back down the court???

These are not just dismissing the guy for being too fat for NBA basketball. Its being lazy too. Its being a combo of things that screams...he is his own worst enemy.

He may make it. No doubt. But do not be shocked if this guy drops down the board below several players. Why? BECAUSE HE DESERVES TO!

When you simply dont care enough to do anything about it. When you come to the combine and you are not interested in doing even the basic drills let alone the stuff the agents tell them to sit out. When you do nothing to quiet the rumors, you DESRVE every bit of criticism.

As for best in years...if I had $100 for every college kid you got wood for over the years at draft time...I could pay off the mortgage. You do this EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

Talented? Yes. Worth taking a shot on with THIS COMBO of NONSENSE? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Too harsh on him...ABSOLUTELY NOT. And the point of Sean May was to respond to the comment about how many guys from Kentucky will be drafted and how big time program players get over rated in these conversations. How people LOVE to ignore all the scouting and think...magical genius on every single big name guy they have heard of. I agree Cousins is more gifted than May. But compared to Curry? You just compared him to the Curry you KNOW over a washed up career that never blossomed. But compared to the Curry who came in from HS? ABSOLUTELY a GREAT comparison. He had great footwork, a huge body, excellent post moves. And people kept waiting for him to put it all together.

Maybe this guy will get out of his own way, grow up, and live up to the talent. But we have seen huge cant miss talents go bust before and we will see it again. Sometimes teams get wise to it before draft day...see Chris Taft. Sometimes they dont....see MANY.

At the end of the day...for me...I would take at least 6 guys out there over him, not to be bothered wasting our time on him. If he blows up rather than balloons up...will I regret it? No. I have seen enough to think he doesnt have the make up worth risking a high draft pick on. If Danny Granger can drop to #17 for fear of a knee issue...wouldnt be shocked to see this kid drop several spots due to MANY issues.

As for Favors...I see some skills, and lots of athleticism...where Howard isnt a half bad comaprison at this stage. Would I be shocked to see him fail? No. But without question, I have seen enough good and bad from both to agree with the scouts, and critics on this one. Take Favors and let the chips fall where they may. At this stage? I am fine taking Wes Johnson too. And personally if I were one of the teams after us looking for a big...I would take Monroe over him as well.

Now there is still a month left until the draft and team workouts are coming. Lets see if he climbs or drops. If he loses any weight. If he makes no progress, if he starts dropping on draft charts, if you read more of the same...are you still going to be on his jock and think everyone else who is seeing him in the flesh is a moron?

If he improves his stock, impresses...then great. Lets start focusing on his skill set more. But right now...I do not believe anything I have said has been too harsh or unfair.

[enetric]

One other thing...how can you be so dismissive of a guy who is out of shape saying...I dont like to work out and declining to do the bench press?????


OR the fact that he had the 4th slowest sprint of all players tested? That he had the 5th worst no step vertical tested. The 3rd worst Max vertical?

You arent seriously concerned that he wont be able to get up and down the court 30 minutes per let along get through NBA practices???? That this winded guy who relies on his size wont be able to beat the elite atheltes of the world to rebounds? Or to the spot to be able to be an effective shot blocker at this level without becoming a foul machine?

Liking his array of post moves against college kids is one thing. But this is the NBA we are talking about. You see many awful athletes from an aerobic stand point in this sport?

[enetric]

Looking closely at the draft express numbers comparing Favors and Cousins to top 15 draft picked bigs that have been logged over the years...

Favors compares most to Dwight Howard.
Cousins compares most to Diop.

There is of course a lot more that will factor in here...but how this doesnt alarm you more is shocking to me.

[enetric]

Mock Draft Consensus Still (Mostly) Favors Favors

Rod Thorn says simply "I would be shocked if that were not the case," when asked whether John Wall and Evan Turner will be taken 1, 2 in the Draft, now only three weeks away.

The draftniks agree. In NBA.com's latest consensus of 12 top mock drafts, that's the way 10 of the 12 see it. Only ESPN and HoopsWorld have Derrick Favors moving into Philly's #2 spot. Favors, who's been seen as the overwhelming choice for the Nets on the mocks, continues to hold that position, with nine of the 12 saying Thorn takes him. ESPN and HoopsWorld have the Nets taking Turner and only Inside Hoops predicts DeMarcus Cousins will be a Net.

The NBA.com consensus only lists lottery selections, but in a deeper dive, there's little consensus on who the Nets take late.

Oklahoma's 6'4" SG Willie Warren gets four votes and West Virginia's 6'7" SF Devin Ebanks gets three...but those two were specifically cited by Dave D'Alessandro as players the Nets are not interested in. "So if you see the names of Willie Warren or Devin Ebanks in one of those spots, scratch them," Dave D wrote.

Of those D'Alessandro wrote the Nets like--Tiny Gallon, Avery Bradley, Larry Sanders, and Craig Brackins, Gallon, a 6'10" PF out of Oklahoma, is projected at #27 by ESPN, and Bradley, a 6'3" SG out of Texas,is projected, also at #27, by RealGM, . In other draft news, Terrico White, 6'5" SG out of Ole Miss, will join the previously named group working out on June 8.

[Rockice_8]

Here are a few per 40 min #'s to chew on.

Favors
FG attempted - 12 (per 40)
True shooting % - 62
FG % - 61
FT% - 63
Free throw att - 6 (per 40)
Pts - 18 (per 40)
Rbs - 12 (per 40)
TO - 4 (per 40)
Assits - 1 (per 40)
Blocks - 3 (per 40)
Fouls - 4 (per 40)

Cousins
FG attempted - 17 (per 40)
True shooting % - 58
FG% - 56
FT% - 60.5
Free throw att - 12 (per 40)
Pts - 26 (per 40)
Rbs - 17
TO - 3
Assists - 2
Blocks - 3
Fouls - 5

Cousins was the featured player for one of the best teams in the country while playing with the best PG/player in the country. Wall hooked him up with a number of easy baskets/easy putbacks. Favors was a complimentary player with Lawal in front of him and was never really able to show what he could do. He still put up impressive numbers with such limited touches. The numbers a pretty close even with Cousins being featured much more. Favors actually played more min per game because which clearly shows me that Cousins had trouble staying on the court with his lack of stamina.

[orecchio14]

Maybe if we're going to be so critical of the, "What if's", with Cousins, we should start identifying all the massive, "What If's," with Favors

I think this is a key point. Every player is going to have flaws. Cousins will never be an elite level athlete...and the chances of Favors being an elite level low post scorer are slim.

But, what it comes down to is at the end of the day which of these two players will end up being the better Basketball player?? Cousins with the right coach in the right system can shed 20-30 lbs before season one even starts. Favors? We are talking years before we see any semblance of a low post game from this kid.

As for Cousins not being able to guard 4s in the NBA...how do you think Amare Stoudamire or Carlos Boozer will fare defensively against a 6'11" bull who is potentially still growing?? It goes both ways there. And the fact that he hasnt touched a weight yet?? Certainly a red flag there...but imagine this kids physique if he hits the weight room for 3-4 months this off-season with an NBA level training staff?

[Preludepunk27]

Nobody is gonna sell me on Cousins anymore by the way. I'm done with kids with his kind of attitude. He is EXACTLY what Zach Randolph was coming out of college. I can just see "offensive black hole" written all over him. You don't win championships with players like that. When Zach was on the market, why wasn't every team in the NBA drooling over trading for a 20-10 player? It's very telling of the type of player he was. I pray I'm wrong if we draft him, but I'm telling you he IS the 2nd coming of Zach Randolph. Cousins probably won't "get it" until he's in his late 20's and by that time won't be on our team. If I couldn't have Turner or Favors, I'd basically throw whatever it took at Minny for Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio and let them deal with Demarcus Cousins. I'm not negative on the kid now that I'd freely give them #3/fillers if we had no other choice but to draft Cousins. I'd rather take a chance Favors, who isn't as raw as some of you make him out to be, and hope he develops than take the mistake from the get-go in Cousins.

[vincecarter4pres]

One other thing...how can you be so dismissive of a guy who is out of shape saying...I dont like to work out and declining to do the bench press?????


OR the fact that he had the 4th slowest sprint of all players tested? That he had the 5th worst no step vertical tested. The 3rd worst Max vertical?

You arent seriously concerned that he wont be able to get up and down the court 30 minutes per let along get through NBA practices???? That this winded guy who relies on his size wont be able to beat the elite atheltes of the world to rebounds? Or to the spot to be able to be an effective shot blocker at this level without becoming a foul machine?

Liking his array of post moves against college kids is one thing. But this is the NBA we are talking about. You see many awful athletes from an aerobic stand point in this sport?

All these certainly concern me and are very, very legitimate.
I still have Favors going to us in my mock and feel his is probably the right choice.
I just feel like Cousins is getting completely written off and I think he should be getting more attention and consideration even if we ultimately go with Favors, which we likely will.
I would like to say, I take everything Thorn says right now with a grain of salt and I also don't think he is the best drafter, but if you dig up numerous recent articles, he has talked up Cousins farely strong. he really likes this kid.
I was comparing Curry as a prospect coming out of high school as well, I made that blatantly clear and painfully obvious that I wasn't looking at NBA Curry in hindsight.
Coming out of high school Curry was a hideous rebounder, horrid passer, low BBIQ, with lame defense and shot blocking. These are facts, not opinions and Cousins has shown to be the exact opposite of all these things.
You can keep comparing them as prospects, but I don't know why, it's a very poor comparison. They have nothing in common other then being out of shape and having very large frames.

In the end I share most of your concerns and doubts though, I just think a lot of people go overboard with their criticisms of him and forget how skilled and talented he is, that's all.

[treiz]

Nobody is gonna sell me on Cousins anymore by the way. I'm done with kids with his kind of attitude. He is EXACTLY what Zach Randolph was coming out of college. I can just see "offensive black hole" written all over him. You don't win championships with players like that. When Zach was on the market, why wasn't every team in the NBA drooling over trading for a 20-10 player? It's very telling of the type of player he was. I pray I'm wrong if we draft him, but I'm telling you he IS the 2nd coming of Zach Randolph. Cousins probably won't "get it" until he's in his late 20's and by that time won't be on our team. If I couldn't have Turner or Favors, I'd basically throw whatever it took at Minny for Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio and let them deal with Demarcus Cousins. I'm not negative on the kid now that I'd freely give them #3/fillers if we had no other choice but to draft Cousins. I'd rather take a chance Favors, who isn't as raw as some of you make him out to be, and hope he develops than take the mistake from the get-go in Cousins.

If we couldn't have Turner or Favors, we'd get Wall, screw trading!

[Preludepunk27]

Haha I think you knew what I meant, but you're right. If we couldn't have Turner or Favors, it'd be because they went 1/2...leaving wall all to us lol.

[Morthello]

Nobody is gonna sell me on Cousins anymore by the way. I'm done with kids with his kind of attitude. He is EXACTLY what Zach Randolph was coming out of college. I can just see "offensive black hole" written all over him. You don't win championships with players like that. When Zach was on the market, why wasn't every team in the NBA drooling over trading for a 20-10 player? It's very telling of the type of player he was. I pray I'm wrong if we draft him, but I'm telling you he IS the 2nd coming of Zach Randolph. Cousins probably won't "get it" until he's in his late 20's and by that time won't be on our team. If I couldn't have Turner or Favors, I'd basically throw whatever it took at Minny for Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio and let them deal with Demarcus Cousins. I'm not negative on the kid now that I'd freely give them #3/fillers if we had no other choice but to draft Cousins. I'd rather take a chance Favors, who isn't as raw as some of you make him out to be, and hope he develops than take the mistake from the get-go in Cousins.

This. After all the things ive heard about his attitude and lack of willingness to do whats asked of him; i will be VERY wary going into next season and beyond if we draft Cousins. With our team being as young as it is and developing i just dont have the patience to consider bringing in a potential head case with poor work ethic. Favors is the TOTAL opposite in terms of attitude. Some say he sounds like an idiot in his interviews. I see a young kid that still has room to grow and add to his frame at 18years old who will work hard and do whats asked of him PERIOD. That attitude + the natural tools he has at only 18= deadly combination in my eyes. I'd be surprised if Cousins makes it through a full 82 games. Hearing about the "i dont lift" just totally dropped this guy off my radar and this team doesnt need that crap at this point. Draft Favors and dont look back.

[enetric]

Maybe if we're going to be so critical of the, "What if's", with Cousins, we should start identifying all the massive, "What If's," with Favors

I think this is a key point. Every player is going to have flaws. Cousins will never be an elite level athlete...and the chances of Favors being an elite level low post scorer are slim.

But, what it comes down to is at the end of the day which of these two players will end up being the better Basketball player?? Cousins with the right coach in the right system can shed 20-30 lbs before season one even starts. Favors? We are talking years before we see any semblance of a low post game from this kid.

As for Cousins not being able to guard 4s in the NBA...how do you think Amare Stoudamire or Carlos Boozer will fare defensively against a 6'11" bull who is potentially still growing?? It goes both ways there. And the fact that he hasnt touched a weight yet?? Certainly a red flag there...but imagine this kids physique if he hits the weight room for 3-4 months this off-season with an NBA level training staff?

1- Just saying...hey lose 20-30 pounds like it is a reasonable request when he was told to do that in HS when he weighed 270? HE GAINED 26 POUNDS AT KENTUCY!!!!! AND HE REFUSES TO LIFT WEIGHTS!!!!


2- The guy is one of the absolute slowest guys in this draft among COLLEGE KIDS. When he gets to the NBA...you are out of your mind if you think he is a 4. Not at 296, Not at 270.

3- We are NOT the right system. We have a center who cant guard 4's who desperately needs a guy who can. Who can do the little things defensively. That and shooting by far the worst issues on this team. I do not advocate taking players by position. But when you have mostly bigs in the draft and you have a very specific big in place for the next decade...why bother with this guy?

4- There are a vast majority of NBA bigs WITHOUT a legit post game. Many of them all star caliber players including Dwight freakin Howard. Its not the end all be all.

5- Your argument defending him sounds more and more like Eddy Curry every day.

The guy has skills. But there are more than enough reasons to believe that his ifs wont be realized because...quite honestly he is showing he doesnt care at all. Hungry and athletic, still growing counts more in this league than talented and lazy. Either could be busts. But go back. Career wise you take Tyson Chandler over Eddy Curry and never think twice if you know what you know now. Howard over Okafor. Kmart over Marcus Fizer. I am not expecting a go to guy here. I am expecting a glue player in Favors. A Josh Smith, Horford, Marion, Kmart, Camby, etc. You need these guys. And if we get the free agent we HOPE to get...no question You would rather have a guy with great soft hands to catch and shoot for easy dunks, who will run the floor in trnasition, who will play D on someone away from the basket, then some guy who wont be able to run back down the floor who would destroy any fast break situation, who would clog the middle.

I wish this kid well. I hate to see talent wasted and I would love to see him become a good player in the NBA. But at the moment..I am simply not seeing that he has what it takes to make it at the next level.

[vincecarter4pres]

Maybe if we're going to be so critical of the, "What if's", with Cousins, we should start identifying all the massive, "What If's," with Favors

I think this is a key point. Every player is going to have flaws. Cousins will never be an elite level athlete...and the chances of Favors being an elite level low post scorer are slim.

But, what it comes down to is at the end of the day which of these two players will end up being the better Basketball player?? Cousins with the right coach in the right system can shed 20-30 lbs before season one even starts. Favors? We are talking years before we see any semblance of a low post game from this kid.

As for Cousins not being able to guard 4s in the NBA...how do you think Amare Stoudamire or Carlos Boozer will fare defensively against a 6'11" bull who is potentially still growing?? It goes both ways there. And the fact that he hasnt touched a weight yet?? Certainly a red flag there...but imagine this kids physique if he hits the weight room for 3-4 months this off-season with an NBA level training staff?

1- Just saying...hey lose 20-30 pounds like it is a reasonable request when he was told to do that in HS when he weighed 270? HE GAINED 26 POUNDS AT KENTUCY!!!!! AND HE REFUSES TO LIFT WEIGHTS!!!!


2- The guy is one of the absolute slowest guys in this draft among COLLEGE KIDS. When he gets to the NBA...you are out of your mind if you think he is a 4. Not at 296, Not at 270.

3- We are NOT the right system. We have a center who cant guard 4's who desperately needs a guy who can. Who can do the little things defensively. That and shooting by far the worst issues on this team. I do not advocate taking players by position. But when you have mostly bigs in the draft and you have a very specific big in place for the next decade...why bother with this guy?

4- There are a vast majority of NBA bigs WITHOUT a legit post game. Many of them all star caliber players including Dwight freakin Howard. Its not the end all be all.

5- Your argument defending him sounds more and more like Eddy Curry every day.

The guy has skills. But there are more than enough reasons to believe that his ifs wont be realized because...quite honestly he is showing he doesnt care at all. Hungry and athletic, still growing counts more in this league than talented and lazy. Either could be busts. But go back. Career wise you take Tyson Chandler over Eddy Curry and never think twice if you know what you know now. Howard over Okafor. Kmart over Marcus Fizer. I am not expecting a go to guy here. I am expecting a glue player in Favors. A Josh Smith, Horford, Marion, Kmart, Camby, etc. You need these guys. And if we get the free agent we HOPE to get...no question You would rather have a guy with great soft hands to catch and shoot for easy dunks, who will run the floor in trnasition, who will play D on someone away from the basket, then some guy who wont be able to run back down the floor who would destroy any fast break situation, who would clog the middle.

I wish this kid well. I hate to see talent wasted and I would love to see him become a good player in the NBA. But at the moment..I am simply not seeing that he has what it takes to make it at the next level.

Yeah, have to agree with this and this is what keeps me coming back to Favors as the pick.

It's easy to say, "No we have to take the big risk on the massive talent, screw the safe pick!", but in all reality, most GM's will be like, "Fat chance!", and go with Favors.
(Yeah that's right, cheesy fat jokes and big puns intended. )

[enetric]

All these certainly concern me and are very, very legitimate.
I still have Favors going to us in my mock and feel his is probably the right choice.
I just feel like Cousins is getting completely written off and I think he should be getting more attention and consideration even if we ultimately go with Favors, which we likely will.
I would like to say, I take everything Thorn says right now with a grain of salt and I also don't think he is the best drafter, but if you dig up numerous recent articles, he has talked up Cousins farely strong. he really likes this kid.
I was comparing Curry as a prospect coming out of high school as well, I made that blatantly clear and painfully obvious that I wasn't looking at NBA Curry in hindsight.
Coming out of high school Curry was a hideous rebounder, horrid passer, low BBIQ, with lame defense and shot blocking. These are facts, not opinions and Cousins has shown to be the exact opposite of all these things.
You can keep comparing them as prospects, but I don't know why, it's a very poor comparison. They have nothing in common other then being out of shape and having very large frames.

In the end I share most of your concerns and doubts though, I just think a lot of people go overboard with their criticisms of him and forget how skilled and talented he is, that's all.

First off, I am not writing the kid off. I am ripping him for what he deserves to be ripped for.

Next, I think Curry is an excellent comparison. The only thing I am convinced of about this guy at the NBA level is that he is house, is in terible shape, is slow, doesnt get off the floor and relies on his length.

Add that together...and you may not have a great NBA rebounder just becaue you were a strong college rebounder. Positioning and timing are why short guys like a Marion can dominate rebounding the way he did.

As BBIQ...I am sorry but if you are tabbed as "not coachable" as a rook??? Going to be hard to teach him much.

He has good foot work , and has a strong understanding of his post game. He relies on his size, not positioning and smarts from what I see on D and under the glass.

How you dont see that this is very similar to Curry surprises me. Add that to his combine numbers looking like a carbon copy of Curry...its a really good comparison. And I am hardly tohe one who made it. Look around its every where.

As for Rod...glad you are taking my advice and taking what he says with a grain of salt. But, I still think you are reading only what you want. Of the top 10 players have you ready anything worse that "he is out of shape and needs to work out"? I havent read one bad comment on anyone from Rod. All he has done is state the obvious and say he lieks everyone. that is the message he wants out there.

As for drafting record...I tell you every year...its not an exact science. You cant gripe about us not taking Granger when Wright was the guy we targeted all along, everyone feared Granger's knee, he has actually been very injury prone as a pro...and 15 other GM's also said no thanks.

Find me the team that gets it right every year. Luck, and development as well as opportunity play a huge role in stats you see later. If you are going to rember the pciks looking at the draft board later that ended up better and not recall what was happening that day...then you have to grade other teams the same way. Once you do that...you may realize...wow...we got it right and wrong as often as the majority..in fact perhaps even better than many when you come up with Brook Lopez, RJ, Kmart and a few others in there.

When we got Marcus Williams who everyone on this board felt was the best pure PG in the draft everyone felt we stole him. DId Rod draft the wrong guy because he was a bust? Or did he draft the rgith guy, and 20 something GM's were right...and it just didnt work out. Everyone ripped the Celtcis for taking Rondo one pick earlier. That isnt genius VS. bad drafting. Its the way it goes. A bit of luck, situation, hard work, good attitude, whatever. Cant just look at the picks after the fact and say bad job.

Looking back, last two were lottery more pressure on those picks. Lower you draft the more of a crap shoot it is, harder to hold managemnt accountable for not finding the needle in the haystack each draft.

2009- Twill was the right pick
2008 Brook absolute steal, then and now. Admittedly I wanted Bayless.
2008- Ryan Anderson good pick.
2007- S.Williams- everyone was ecstatic on this board. I wanted Rudy Fernandez. Still #17, so what.

2006- 22/23 Williams and Boone. I wanted Sergio was assured by many here I was wrong. I wasntbut either way...not terrible angy at Rod for this. Made the right moves that low. A seviceable big, and a flyer on a huge upside guy. Sometimes you get Granger, sometimes you get Taft.

2005- 15th Antoine Wright. Obviously the pick that hurts the most with us and 15 other teams getting it wrong on Gragner. Not going to be harder on our guy for that one, and its time oyu and many others around here do the same. It was not a screw up at Rod's feet. In fact this draft was a mess all the way through. Knicks take Frye over Bynum because Toronto took Villa over Frye in the lottery but get Nate and Lee late in the draft. Just a messy draft looking back.

2004-Late 1st round pick sold for cash. NOT ROD'S fault.
2003- 22- Planinic. Everyone loved that pick at the time. Again notice most of these picks are late picks? Josh Howard who has simply become overpaid overrated crap went later, Barbosa, Perkins went 27-29 to end the round.

2002- #24- Nenad Krstic. FANTASTIC PICK. Got hurt but knew what we had there.
2001- Widely regarded as Rod's best draft...i think it may have been his worst. Loved the trade of 1 pick for three later ones...then blew te picks. RJ at 13 is only validated if you get the picks right later. Collins was a serviceable big who fit what we needed. But over Zach at 19? I am not a huge Zach fan as that his game has many holes. Plus off court issues. But where you have Cousins #1 overall if he wasnt MR. Red Flag and he will got top 8 no matter what, Zach was on the board at 18 and you needed a big man. BAD PICK. And last..while 24 is a crap shoot pick...you take Brandon Armstrong over Tony Parker and Gilbert Acrapness. While Arenas is the very definition of a team cancer and the worst contract in the NBA, that was a terrible pick when you were SCOUTING PG's!!!! Worht noting, Dalembert, Gerald Wallace and another PG I hate but is stil better than Armstrong...Tinsley were all still on the board.

2000- Rods 1st draft I believe, Kmart #1 overall. Got the pick right and this is the hardest one to GET right. No wiggle room and there were 7 bigs taken in the lottery. This draft bar none the worst NBA draft in history. What an ugly class of talent.

Overall, not as awful as you make it sound considering how low most of the picks were and add in a few picks where he exceeded expectations.

[enetric]

Nobody is gonna sell me on Cousins anymore by the way. I'm done with kids with his kind of attitude. He is EXACTLY what Zach Randolph was coming out of college. I can just see "offensive black hole" written all over him. You don't win championships with players like that. When Zach was on the market, why wasn't every team in the NBA drooling over trading for a 20-10 player? It's very telling of the type of player he was. I pray I'm wrong if we draft him, but I'm telling you he IS the 2nd coming of Zach Randolph. Cousins probably won't "get it" until he's in his late 20's and by that time won't be on our team. If I couldn't have Turner or Favors, I'd basically throw whatever it took at Minny for Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio and let them deal with Demarcus Cousins. I'm not negative on the kid now that I'd freely give them #3/fillers if we had no other choice but to draft Cousins. I'd rather take a chance Favors, who isn't as raw as some of you make him out to be, and hope he develops than take the mistake from the get-go in Cousins.

This. After all the things ive heard about his attitude and lack of willingness to do whats asked of him; i will be VERY wary going into next season and beyond if we draft Cousins. With our team being as young as it is and developing i just dont have the patience to consider bringing in a potential head case with poor work ethic. Favors is the TOTAL opposite in terms of attitude. Some say he sounds like an idiot in his interviews. I see a young kid that still has room to grow and add to his frame at 18years old who will work hard and do whats asked of him PERIOD. That attitude + the natural tools he has at only 18= deadly combination in my eyes. I'd be surprised if Cousins makes it through a full 82 games. Hearing about the "i dont lift" just totally dropped this guy off my radar and this team doesnt need that crap at this point. Draft Favors and dont look back.

Neither guy is a rocket scientist. But I will take dumb and willing than slightly less dumb and stubborn, bad attitude.

[enetric]

Yeah, have to agree with this and this is what keeps me coming back to Favors as the pick.

It's easy to say, "No we have to take the big risk on the massive talent, screw the safe pick!", but in all reality, most GM's will be like, "Fat chance!", and go with Favors.
(Yeah that's right, cheesy fat jokes and big puns intended. )

So I take it you are back again from the dark side?? lol...

[vincecarter4pres]

Yeah, have to agree with this and this is what keeps me coming back to Favors as the pick.

It's easy to say, "No we have to take the big risk on the massive talent, screw the safe pick!", but in all reality, most GM's will be like, "Fat chance!", and go with Favors.
(Yeah that's right, cheesy fat jokes and big puns intended. )

So I take it you are back again from the dark side?? lol...

Haha, yeah.
I'll probably flip flop a couple more times, especially if by some crazy chance Cousins gets himself into good shape by the workouts, but I've still been leaning towards Favors for about a month now.

BTW, I am not one of the guys that craps all over Rod for his drafting, I just think he could be substantially better at times. That said, in general, your breakdown does put it in perpsective, especially for the guys that are on the silly "Fire Thorn" train.

I don't know if you visit the "other" site, but there is a decent amount of anti-Rod sentiment over there, lead by the ring leader, one of the admins. I was one of the guys standing up for Rod, in a reasonable, level headed manner, but some of it's crazy over there, just hair brained logic and making stuff up to benefit arguments and what not. Just making the point that I have never been anti-Thorn and have mainly supported his moves, although there are times I would have done some vastly different things.

[SpeedyG]

As Enetric have said, it is one thing to be out of shape or have a bad attitude...it's another to have both because having both is a volatile recipe that usually leads to bust.

I will say that from watching Cousins, he does have one saving grace, in that he seems like a guy who likes to play basketball and compete on the court. That could be his saving grace. He's probably going to be a guy who does just enough to be a serviceable-to-good big man, but fall flat of his true potential if he did everything in his power to be the best he can.