Retro POY '93-94 (Voting Complete)

[ronnymac2]

Right now, I have Hakeem at one. And that sure as hell won't change.

I have Shaq over Robinson, mainly because the problems I have with Shaq, which I may go into later, are still less of a problem for me than Robinson's problem this year.

I think Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are not getting enough high mention. Right now, I have both Malone and Barkley above Shaq and Robinson.

The only guy who entes the equation outisde of these five is Patrick Ewing. I could see him leapfrogging Shaq- or at least Robinson.

Scottie Pippen is getting overrated here. Can anybody who has voted for him really say that in his prime, he was a better basketball player than Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, and Ewing?


In these last few threads, I've learned some things about Patrick Ewing and David Robinson that will make me reconsider who I think is the better basketball player peak vs. peak.

[ItsMillerTime]

Probably my final rankings

1. Hakeem
2. Robinson
3. Shaq
4. Ewing
5.Karl Malone

[TrueLAfan]

Mod comment—Easy on the “my way is the best/only way!” comments and innuendoes, and the cheesy complaining about disagreeing. People are going to rate and weight postseason play in different ways, and have different ideas of what makes a player “good” and/or “valuable.”

(My personal feeling is that people are spending way, way, way too much times crunching numbers as opposed to discussing what they saw on the court. But that’s my opinion, and I’m not slinging mud at people who operate differently.)

1. Hakeem. Obvious.
2. Shaq. Personally, I thought this was a good year for Shaq’s..better than 95, the best for the next five or six years best years. The Magic were a really lopsided team; little rebounding or defense. Shaq and Penny were analogous to West/Baylor on the Lakers teams of the 60s (except the Laker teams were even more off kilter). Shaq hadn’t quite moved into Big Ego mode, and he was more of a leader than he would be at any time until the late 90s/earlu 00s. But he also got bounced by Rik Smits, who always gave the young Shaq problems.
3. Drob. You either think that Drob led a team of misfits that didn’t fit well together, or you think he folded. I thought the Spurs were pretty well constructed…Drob and Rodman on the inside, Ellis, Anderson and Del Negro on the wings. I understand that Rodman was a disruptive force, but part of being a leader is to deal with that. Robinson was worse than Shaq at that.
4. Malone. Good year, good playoff year. I don’t think there’s a whole to choose from between 4 and 7.
5. Ewing. Collapsed against Hakeenm…but that’s why Hakeem is #1 andf Ewing is #5. Very good season.

HM: Pippen, Payton (wasn’t his fault that Shawn Kemp folded up like a wet tortilla in the postseason).

I could easily change #2 and #3, as well as #4 and #5, or move one of the HMs up. That type of year for me.

[Silver Bullet]

Do you guys have something against avatars ?

[semi-sentient]

Scottie Pippen is getting overrated here. Can anybody who has voted for him really say that in his prime, he was a better basketball player than Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, and Ewing?

What separates Ewing, Malone, and Shaq from Pippen offensively speaking?

Ewing and Malone have a tiny edge in terms of TS% (which is disappointing, actually), and their advantage in scoring is quickly negated by the fact that Pippen is the superior play-maker.

Shaq has a pretty signifigant edge as far as scoring and TS% is concerned, but again, the gap isn't that big when play-making is factored in.

As I mentioned, Pippen's role was bigger in that he had to be the primary scorer as well as the play-maker for the Bulls, so offensively speaking, I think he has the edge on all three of those bigs (some more than others, especially Malone who had Stockton).

The defensive side of the house is what makes it interesting, as Ewing and to a lesser extent Malone have a bigger impact. Shaq? It's hard for me to know, because quite frankly, I don't recall him being that great of a defender back then, and the Magic were a below average defensive team. Pippen is one of the best perimeter defenders ever though, so I don't like the big vs. small argument here, at least not in a sense that we should easily disregard a wing player as we normally would. Pippen had a pretty big impact defensively, and I also think he was a way better leader than any of those guys. Little things like that matter to me.

The Bulls also won 71% of their games with Pippen in the lineup and were below .500 without him. They were also 7-5 without Horace Grant, although I didn't bother to check who the competition was.

Shaq, with a healthy Penny and Anderson, won 60% of the time.

Malone, with a healthy Stockton and Hornacek, won 65% of the time.

Pippen had nowhere near that kind of support, and yet he led his team to a better win percentage. In the post season, he led his team in PTS, REB, AST, STL, and FTA. Can ANY of those other players make that claim? Clearly he was the most important piece, and there wasn't a very close second, and yet he still managed to take his team farther than the Magic, which I admit is why I put Shaq behind him, not to mention the fact that his numbers fell dramatically in his series against the Pacers. Pippen meanwhile damn near got the Bulls past the Knicks, taking them to 7 games.

Ewing, at least, won the same percentage of games as Pippen and I don't think he had all that much help offensively either, but I don't think what he did on offense is all that impressive anyway. His defense? The Knicks were great, but was that all Ewing? Apparently the media/coaches didn't think so because he got no votes for DPOY, and no recognition on the All-Defensive team. My memory might be wrong here, but I always thought he was a slow footed center that didn't have nearly the impact of guys like Hakeem and Robinson. Kind of like an Andrew Bynum with much better instincts. I'll admit, I don't really remember him all that well, but that's how I do remember him.

Malone wasn't better than Pippen in the RS, IMO, and while he was better in the playoffs, I don't think he had anywhere near the responsibility that Pippen had, so despite having better numbers, I have him on the same pedistal as Ewing.

Positions 3-6 are difficult to rank though, and even the tiniest of arguments can have me completely shuffle the rankings, so my votes aren't set in stone. I might just be overlooking Barkley as well, although having played in only 65 games (and his numbers being worse than Malone, Ewing, Shaq, and Pippen in the RS) makes me wonder if what he did in the PS was really enough to get recognition over those guys. I'll need to give it more thought.

Sorry if this post is confusing and all over the place. Kind of in a hurry.

[kaima]

Scottie Pippen is getting overrated here. Can anybody who has voted for him really say that in his prime, he was a better basketball player than Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, and Ewing?

As I mentioned, Pippen's role was bigger in that he had to be the primary scorer as well as the play-maker for the Bulls, so offensively speaking, I think he has the edge on all three of those bigs (some more than others, especially Malone who had Stockton).

The Bulls definitely had a better overall roster than Utah in 94.

Malone, Stockton and Hornacek are great together, but the rest of the roster is again pretty ugly.

And it's not just that Malone played better than Pippen in the playoffs, he also played better while Stockton slid. Malone was the overwhelming reason Utah beat both the Spurs and Nuggets to make the WCF.

Game 5, for instance, had Malone foul out before OT. Utah lost, and it was a scenario where they couldn't seem to run anything effectively without Malone's presence. I really thought Utah had that game by the throat...until Malone got tossed. Stockton, uncharacteristically, even bounced the ball off his foot at one point; with Malone gone, the whole team looked shell-shocked.

They looked the same in game 7. Look at that first half. Malone almost literally has to outscore the Nuggest by himself because everybody else looks too ****.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL8dbDAXKVU[/youtube]

Ewing got his team to the Finals. And that's with John Starks' questionable shooting as a major contributor.

The Bulls also won 71% of their games with Pippen in the lineup and were below .500 without him. They were also 7-5 without Horace Grant, although I didn't bother to check who the competition was.

I think Pippen was a great facilitator, much like a great PG.

But how do we consider that value next to a dominent frontcourt player? I think you get better results out of Cs and big forwards than out of swingmen at the 3. We saw that in 94. We even see it today with LeBron versus Dwight.

I'm not truly comfortable with team result being used unless I can very directly trace the difference in outcome between the players discussed, however. I don't know if that's the case here. But I did think this was worth responding to as standardization.

That Jazz roster was just awful if you minus out Malone.

Pippen had nowhere near that kind of support,

Bulls were deeper than both the Magic and Utah.

More support as far as another star? Shaq and Malone had that. But one through ten I like Chi's roster a lot better.

Malone wasn't better than Pippen in the RS, IMO, and while he was better in the playoffs, I don't think he had anywhere near the responsibility that Pippen had,

Take Malone off Utah's roster.

Uh...wow, that is a bad team.

If that team does anything without Malone hypothetically, then Stockton should be top 5 every season.

I'm still looking closely at Malone, Ewing, Barkley and Shaq.

It looks to me like it was again a power player's league. So it is without MJ.

[kaima]

Mod comment—Easy on the “my way is the best/only way!” comments and innuendoes, and the cheesy complaining about disagreeing. People are going to rate and weight postseason play in different ways, and have different ideas of what makes a player “good” and/or “valuable.”

(My personal feeling is that people are spending way, way, way too much times crunching numbers as opposed to discussing what they saw on the court. But that’s my opinion, and I’m not slinging mud at people who operate differently.)

Good points. Good mod.

I'll say this, judge people on their standards, not yours. Meaning, we should try keeping each other honest between threads.

That's where the real debate comes in. If I'm being unfair to a player based on my previously stated standards, or if that's felt by another member, then I think I should be called on it.

HM: Pippen, Payton (wasn’t his fault that Shawn Kemp folded up like a wet tortilla in the postseason).

Really? I just watched parts of game 5 again. I thought Payton was worse, or at least as bad. Kemp, like the rest of the Sonics, was dealing with a monster at the rim in Mutombo. They all looked shaken by it.

I'm gonna watch more of 3&4 and analyze who was better between these two.

[mysticbb]

I'll say this, judge people on their standards, not yours. Meaning, we should try keeping each other honest between threads.

That's where the real debate comes in. If I'm being unfair to a player based on my previously stated standards, or if that's felt by another member, then I think I should be called on it.

Well, it is hard to judge someone by his standards when there is only a very limited example of your standards. Actually I would LOVE to see your rankings in the 00's. Especially when your focus is on matchups and ppg.

Anyway, just want to point out that my number crunching takes me about 10 minutes, I spend much more time to read some articles I can find about those years and watching youtube videos (or from other sources).

Regarding the Jazz support: Adding Hornacek to the team in that midseason trade helped them offensively. He had a big impact on offense, something Jeff Malone wasn't able to do anymore.

We even see it today with LeBron versus Dwight.

Really? We can see that in this example? What has Howard achieved so far what James didn't?

[kaima]

I'll say this, judge people on their standards, not yours. Meaning, we should try keeping each other honest between threads.

That's where the real debate comes in. If I'm being unfair to a player based on my previously stated standards, or if that's felt by another member, then I think I should be called on it.

Well, it is hard to judge someone by his standards when there is only a very limited example of your standards.

Granted.

But I'm saying when there's a deviation, it should be called out.

It's hard to keep track of all the arguments, so some people might get away with more than others.

Actually I would LOVE to see your rankings in the 00's. Especially when your focus is on matchups and ppg.

I could dig up a couple of the threads. But it's hard to split my focus.

Regarding the Jazz support: Adding Hornacek to the team in that midseason trade helped them offensively. He had a big impact on offense, something Jeff Malone wasn't able to do anymore.

Jeff Malone, in my opinion, was always a square peg trying to be pushed through a round hole.

He didn't complement the two stars in the right ways, no matter his stats from night to night. His range was way too limited, for one, as was the case for just about everyone but Stockton.

[ronnymac2]

What separates Ewing, Malone, and Shaq from Pippen offensively speaking?

Ewing and Malone have a tiny edge in terms of TS% (which is disappointing, actually), and their advantage in scoring is quickly negated by the fact that Pippen is the superior play-maker.

Shaq has a pretty signifigant edge as far as scoring and TS% is concerned, but again, the gap isn't that big when play-making is factored in.

As I mentioned, Pippen's role was bigger in that he had to be the primary scorer as well as the play-maker for the Bulls, so offensively speaking, I think he has the edge on all three of those bigs (some more than others, especially Malone who had Stockton).

The defensive side of the house is what makes it interesting, as Ewing and to a lesser extent Malone have a bigger impact. Shaq? It's hard for me to know, because quite frankly, I don't recall him being that great of a defender back then, and the Magic were a below average defensive team. Pippen is one of the best perimeter defenders ever though, so I don't like the big vs. small argument here, at least not in a sense that we should easily disregard a wing player as we normally would. Pippen had a pretty big impact defensively, and I also think he was a way better leader than any of those guys. Little things like that matter to me.

The Bulls also won 71% of their games with Pippen in the lineup and were below .500 without him. They were also 7-5 without Horace Grant, although I didn't bother to check who the competition was.

Shaq, with a healthy Penny and Anderson, won 60% of the time.

Malone, with a healthy Stockton and Hornacek, won 65% of the time.

Pippen had nowhere near that kind of support, and yet he led his team to a better win percentage. In the post season, he led his team in PTS, REB, AST, STL, and FTA. Can ANY of those other players make that claim? Clearly he was the most important piece, and there wasn't a very close second, and yet he still managed to take his team farther than the Magic, which I admit is why I put Shaq behind him, not to mention the fact that his numbers fell dramatically in his series against the Pacers. Pippen meanwhile damn near got the Bulls past the Knicks, taking them to 7 games.

Ewing, at least, won the same percentage of games as Pippen and I don't think he had all that much help offensively either, but I don't think what he did on offense is all that impressive anyway. His defense? The Knicks were great, but was that all Ewing? Apparently the media/coaches didn't think so because he got no votes for DPOY, and no recognition on the All-Defensive team. My memory might be wrong here, but I always thought he was a slow footed center that didn't have nearly the impact of guys like Hakeem and Robinson. Kind of like an Andrew Bynum with much better instincts. I'll admit, I don't really remember him all that well, but that's how I do remember him.

Malone wasn't better than Pippen in the RS, IMO, and while he was better in the playoffs, I don't think he had anywhere near the responsibility that Pippen had, so despite having better numbers, I have him on the same pedistal as Ewing.

Positions 3-6 are difficult to rank though, and even the tiniest of arguments can have me completely shuffle the rankings, so my votes aren't set in stone. I might just be overlooking Barkley as well, although having played in only 65 games (and his numbers being worse than Malone, Ewing, Shaq, and Pippen in the RS) makes me wonder if what he did in the PS was really enough to get recognition over those guys. I'll need to give it more thought.

Sorry if this post is confusing and all over the place. Kind of in a hurry.

I have a problem with the leadership thing. Wasn't this the season where Scottie refused to enter a playoff game against NY at the end because PJ designed a play for Kukoc? Scottie obviously wasn't psychic, because I believe Kukoc hit the shot. That's not being a leader. He can't get points for leadership over Ewing, O'neal, or Malone, especially since those guys didn't have any black marks on them as leaders this season.


I agree with the part regarding Pip's worth on the Bulls that season. Leading in all those categories is something only three or four people have. The list is something like Dr. J, KG, Lebron, and Scottie. That is very impressive. Considering he was the all-important base on the Chicago structure, you make a great case for him being Most Valuable Player. Not Player of the Year though. Because then, you are essentially docking other players for potentially having A.) better teammates (or) B.) a team that isn't necesarily built around them properly, but can afford to withstand that player being replaced with an inferior player (or injury).

Scottie held the Bulls together. Possibly more than Ewing, Malone, Robinson, and O'neal for their respective teams. That doesn't make him better, just like it doesn't make Patrick automatically better because NY got farther than Chicago (Ewing is better imo, but that isn't the reason why). It shouldn't go both ways.


Just a technical thing about Scottie's game....as a wing, he shot 66% from the free throw line (to be fair, he shot 89% in the playoffs, on slightly lesser volume per game). One supposed advantage of being a wing is reliable free throw shooting at the end of a game. Does Scottie have as big of an edge here?

I won't comment on Stockton's worth to Malone because I don't want to have a Stockton discussion in this thread, but Penny wasn't the Penny we saw in 95 and 96. Not close. He averaged over 6 to's per game in the playoffs, and was second in total to's during the season. All this while only sharing pg duties with a good pg in Skiles. He was a rookie on defense, and his shooting wasn't where it would be. Nothing indicates he's a star.

The more I think about it...TrueLaFan is correct in saying this might be Shaq's most impressive regular season for a while. With no bench, no HoGrant, a bad coach, a rookie Penny, and merely good players at the other positions, he did a good job dragging that team to 50 wins. Hell, I probably would have put O'neal over Pip in MVP rankings, let alone POY rankings.


So it comes down to who the better player is. Let's just say that Scottie is better on defense than Malone, O'neal, and Ewing. I don't agree (especially with Ewing), but let's just say. The gap can't be too big. The gap is rather large on offense though, with Pip coming in last. The only one he is close to is Ewing. Malone and Shaq are a lot better as offensive players.

Scottie played so well, and this is his absolute peak, so he will surely get an HM from me. There is no chance he was a better player than Robinson, O'neal, Malone, Ewing, or Barkley.

[mysticbb]

But I'm saying when there's a deviation, it should be called out.

Well, I don't think calling out is necessary at all. The overall argumentation must be consistent (I'm not saying yours is not, it seems consistent to me). For me it was just with too much emphasize on specific matchups. Even though I agree that the playoffs can expose some players and should have a larger per game weight. But I probably look at that from a different perspective. Imho it is a good indicator in terms of greatness, if a player can increase his level in the playoffs in comparison to the regular season. That's what players like Duncan or Olajuwon seperates from players like Robinson or Ewing.

[semi-sentient]

I have a problem with the leadership thing. Wasn't this the season where Scottie refused to enter a playoff game against NY at the end because PJ designed a play for Kukoc? Scottie obviously wasn't psychic, because I believe Kukoc hit the shot. That's not being a leader. He can't get points for leadership over Ewing, O'neal, or Malone, especially since those guys didn't have any black marks on them as leaders this season.

That's true, and yeah, that was the season. I kind of forgot about that... lol. That was an extremely poor decision on his part, but it was one mistake that ultimately didn't cost his team. When I think of a leader, I generally think of someone that sets an example throughout the course of the season and keeps his guys mentally focused on the court, as well as challenged. I've never seen that from guys like Malone, Shaq, and Ewing, and even though that was a big time goof up, I don't think he was any less of a leader for that one play. It was a heat of the moment brain fart that I thought was uncharacteristic.

As for the rest of what you said, those are all things I have to take into account, and it's why I'm not 100% certain of my rankings just yet. I generally start heavily revising things just before the deadline as I read more opinions, so there's no real guarantee that Pippen stays above guys like Shaq and Malone.

Barkley is a guy that I didn't consider due to games missed, but giving him a second glance, he played great in the PS despite having kind of a forgettable RS. I don't think it's enough, to be honest.

So it comes down to who the better player is. Let's just say that Scottie is better on defense than Malone, O'neal, and Ewing. I don't agree (especially with Ewing), but let's just say. The gap can't be too big. The gap is rather large on offense though, with Pip coming in last. The only one he is close to is Ewing. Malone and Shaq are a lot better as offensive players.

Generally, I do agree that they are better offensive players, but where they really better for this particular year? Pippen produced more for his team than did Malone when factoring in scoring, assists, efficiency, etc. At least in the RS. Malone was better in the PS. I think that Pippen was the better defender of the two, and so he holds a slight tie-breaker. He was better than Ewing in the RS and PS as far as offensive production goes, but I don't believe he was the better defender, so again, it's pretty close. He was more productive than Shaq in the PS, although that's a pretty small sample to go by, and it's largely why I'll probably end up moving Shaq to #3 and at a minimum, Pippen down to #4.

I'm going to post these again so that I don't sound completely crazy though.

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player  GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
==================================================================
D-Rob   80  40.5  29.8  .577  10.7  4.8  1.7  3.3  3.2  20.0  30.7
Ewing   79  37.6  24.5  .551  11.2  2.3  1.1  2.7  3.3  13.1  22.9
Shaq    81  39.8  29.3  .605  13.2  2.4  0.9  2.9  2.7  16.9  28.5
Malone  82  40.6  25.2  .550  11.5  4.0  1.5  1.5  2.9  13.4  22.9
Pippen  72  38.3  22.0  .544  8.7   5.6  2.9  0.8  3.2  11.2  23.2

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player  GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
==================================================================
D-Rob   4   36.5  20.0  .471  10.0  3.5  0.8  2.5  2.3  0.3   22.0
Ewing   25  41.3  21.9  .495  11.7  2.6  1.3  3.1  3.3  3.2   20.6 
Shaq    3   42.0  20.7  .517  13.3  2.3  0.7  3.3  3.3  0.3   20.1
Malone  16  43.9  27.1  .531  12.4  3.4  1.4  0.8  2.1  3.1   24.6
Pippen  10  38.4  22.8  .521  8.3   4.6  2.4  0.7  3.7  1.2   22.8

I left out Hakeem because he was a straight pimp, and while I still have D-Rob at second place, I wanted to show that Pippen even outdid him in the PS. Of the above, the only guy who played better in the PS was Malone, but he was worse in the RS (as was Ewing), which is why I gave Scottie the edge. Of all the above guys, Pippen is the only one that went against that great Knicks defense as well.

I also want to mention that I always factor in awards, and Pippen shined there more than any of the others. Outside of Hakeem and Robinson, he was the only other player that was recognized for every award. He finished higher in MVP voting and DPOY voting than all the others, and making both All-NBA and All-Defensive 1st teams doesn't hurt his case, particularly when the others were nowhere to be found in some cases. I don't weigh this too heavily, but it's something I definitely factor in.

Awards Recognition

Code: Select all

Player  MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense
============================================
Hakeem  1       1      1st       1st
D-Rob   2       2      2nd       2nd
Ewing   5       -      ---       ---
Shaq    4       -      3rd       ---
Malone  7       -      1st       ---
Pippen  3       4      1st       1st

[bastillon]

1.Hakeem
2.Malone
3.Ewing
4.Pippen
5.Robinson

[Optimism Prime]

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. David Robinson
4. Patrick Ewing
5. Karl Malone

HM: Pippen

I'd forgotten about the Kukoc shot argument. Had Pippen at 5 before that was brought up--sorry, you're not my POY if you're gonna throw a hissy fit like that.

Rest is pretty self-explanatory. This was Hakeem's year; Shaq was great; Robinson played great until the postseason; Ewing nearly got his team to the ring--but even if he had, I don't think he would've overtaken Hakeem in my eyes this year; Malone was his usual steady self.

[lorak]

What is argument for Shaq above Robinson?
Because Robinson had better RS and they both had very similar post season so it's unreasonable to put Shaq higher.

[An Unbiased Fan]

1) Hakeem
2) DRob
3) Pippen
4) Ewing
5) Malone

[ronnymac2]

To Semi-Sentient- First things first....that was a damn good game 1.

Scottie is one of those good all-around, versatile offensive types. He can shoot from the outside a bit, post up, slash, and is a menace in transition. He's an excellent point forward- we're not talking Nash's creativity, but he definitely makes plays for others.

However, in the halfcourt, he is limited if he is the first option. Halfcourt basketball is a staple of the NBA playoffs, so this is important. Scottie just wasn't somebody who was going to make for a reliable offensive anchor as the first option in the playoffs (really, not many players are). His iso ability isn't amazing, he's not a dominant offensive rebounder, his 3-point shooting is just good, and he doesn't get to the free throw line nearly as much as a predominantly slashing offensive player should. He wasn't really a clutch, last-second type of guy. His free throw shooting was suspect.

You brought up a good point that he was the only one facing the historic Knicks defense in those playoffs. Considering that, his numbers are all right against NY. Something like 22 points and 5 assists with 3 to's on 40%. Still, is that first option material as an offensive anchor? It WAS against an amazing defense, but....I don't like how he ended that series. In the last three games, he went for 19 points and 5 assists with 4 turnovers on 38% shooting while getting to the line a little over 4 times per game. This just doesn't scream out offensive anchor to me.

Malone and O'neal on the other hand do. Especially Malone (which is why I am leaning towards Malone as my number two for now). Malone was a force inside. At this stage of his career, he was posting up with his back to the basket more than in 97 and 98. He was very good at finding cutters and shooters (yes, he assisted Stockton, too). He had moves inside, was awesome on the pick-n-roll, and could shoot. He was a constant force on offense. O'neal, too, though I penalize him for his passing a bit. He was unselfish and creative- just not technically proficent yet. Better than his rookie year, but still not that great. But he was a phenom scoring the ball, in transition (from all the clips I've seen from this year- and there are precious few- this was his best year ever running the floor), and on the offensive glass.

Ewing comes down closer to Scottie on offense because of his average passing and limited scoring skillset (though he could produce points like Pip). I'm not sure who I'd pick there. Patrick is also a guy I always think of as a second option on offense. But Patrick was a monster on defense. His mentality was the backbone of NY's toughness, and his shot-blocking helped, too. He was sharing the boards with all-star Oakley and Mason, too. I think Pip is the best perimeter defender ever, but Ewing's defensive impact was just awesome and underrated all-time since he played with Eaton, Olajuwon, Robinson, Deke, and Zo. 94 may have been his peak defensively.

You can make the argument that Pip was better than Shaq and Malone defensively this year, but they were still forces. Both were dominant low-post defenders and rebounders. Shaq got 3 blocks per game and Malone averaged 1.5 steals and 1.5 blocks per game this season (Yes, Malone averaged 1.5 blocks). Both offered wings something to think about venturing into the paint with their physicality. They aren't THAT far off from Pip on d. Pip is pretty far away from them on offense.

The Bulls weren't that hot as far as defensive rating went in the playoffs either. This despite playing a limited offensive team for 70% of their games that post-season. That's not my favorite thing to use in an argument though, so if you disregard it, it's cool.

[ronnymac2]

Looking that that IND-ORL series, Shaq played really well in game 1. 24/19(8 o-boards)/5. He made Smits extremely inefficient.

Shaq again shut down Smits in game 2, but he was in foul trouble himself. A paultry 3 field goal makes is the damning thing. That's a bad game.

In game 3, he does 23/14 with 9 makes. Much better. He outplayed Smits, too.

I really wish one of those games was available so I could see what was really going on. The stats indicate two excellent games and one bad game. He was never really outplayed by the opposing center, who was good and flanked by the Davis tandem at forward. IND was a slow, methodical team, and those were fairly slow games according to pace (which I don't exactly trust, but it is all I have).

Malone has a slight edge on Shaq for now. That and Robinson vs. Ewing are the big comparisons for me (edge to Robinson).

[Barstool Blues]

Pippen was definitely top 5. What Pippen did that Malone for one never did was make players around him better. People throw that around a lot but Scottie Pippen actually is one of those few players that raised the game of those he played with. Grant and BJ and career years because Pippen knew that he couldn't do it all by himself with that line up and the 94 Bulls became a much more team oriented group with Pippen keeping everyone involved. If you really want to see team basketball at it's best watch those 94 Bulls and it was Pippen's all around stellar excellence at every facet of the game and leadership skills that got the best out of everyone on that team.

[lorak]

The stats indicate two excellent games and one bad game.

So Robinson also had two excellent games in PS.
Shaq: 24.1 and 14.7 game score
Robinson: 24.7 and 21.1 game score

So again - why you guys are choosing Shaq above Robinson? Because of one more bad game? C’mon, Robinson was better during whole regular season… In this project that should count for more than one game.