Retro POY '93-94 (Voting Complete)

[Sedale Threatt]

You can call David a lot of things, but selfish is not one of them.

You can argue that he was in that particular instance -- I wouldn't; he went for a personal achievement with the full support of his team -- but that is not one of his defining qualities.

Indeed, he's one of the most generous benefactors in basketball. You won't find too many players who run their own private school for disadvantaged youth.

So I'll cut him some slack for that. Not for getting his ass kicked in critical moments, but definitely that.

[kaima]

You can call David a lot of things, but selfish is not one of them.

You can argue that he was in that particular instance -- I wouldn't; he went for a personal achievement with the full support of his team -- but that is not one of his defining qualities.

Indeed, he's one of the most generous benefactors in basketball. You won't find too many players who run their own private school for disadvantaged youth.

So I'll cut him some slack for that. Not for getting his ass kicked in critical moments, but definitely that.

My point is not so much the selfish act -- in many ways, we celebrate and gravitate to that as fans of these guys -- but the fact that he is afraid to own it.

It's a character flaw. It's a lack of interest or ability in being the top dog, and taking the flack that goes with that.

David, in my opinion, was afraid to be a villain. Yet the villains of the 90s have names like Jordan, Malone, Barkley, et cetera.

Were they nice? No. And that's an arguable reason why they were so great.

[lorak]

I'm speechless on what you did to Olajuwon. Just...come on.

I’m one of Robinson’s supporters but here I totally agree with kaima.

[Silver Bullet]

Once again - I don't get the Hakeem love.

D-Rob had a historic, once in a decade type season.

1. David Robinson
2. Shaquille O Neal
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Scottie Pippen
5. Karl Malone

HM: Patrick Ewing

I don't see how Hakeem could not be a unamnimous #1 here. He won League MVP, DPOY and Finals MVP.

And I don't see how you could put Shaq #2 when he lost in round 1 with HCA.

He won DPOY with 1 vote.

Mutombo and Robinson were right there with him. If that one guy votes for Robinson instead of Hakeem, D-Rob is the DPOY.

So they were tied defensively and Hakeem was a furlong behind Shaq and Robinson offensively.

Robinson won 55 games while having literally no one on his team. You might as well put 5 guys from the stands on that team and he might still come up with 50+ wins.

Meanwhile Shaq put up 30-13 and 3 in the regular season. Wins 50 games goes to Indiana, put up 24-20-3-5 and Hardaway, Anderson and Scott combine to shoot something like 20% from the field.
Game 2, Shaq is in foul trouble the whole time, never gets going.
Game 3, puts up decent line, Anderson and Scott do the usual choke job going 7 for 28.

I'm not gonna penalize him, because he had two of the biggest chokers in league history on his side. Specially now that we know that the guy has no problem performing in the playoffs.

[Sedale Threatt]

My point is not so much the selfish act -- in many ways, we celebrate and gravitate to that as fans of these guys -- but the fact that he is afraid to own it.

It's a character flaw. It's a lack of interest or ability in being the top dog, and taking the flack that goes with that.

David, in my opinion, was afraid to be a villain. Yet the villains of the 90s have names like Jordan, Malone, Barkley, et cetera.

Were they nice? No. And that's an arguable reason why they were so great.

I don't know about the "not owning it" part. Not being an alpha, however, I agree with completely.

Character flaw as an athlete, in this very narrow, specific designation, for sure. That's what we're talking about here, so he should be criticized for that. He didn't have that cutthroat, slaughter-everyone-in-his-path mentality that it usually takes to win.

That will to dominate is the No. 1 reason, way more than innate athletic ability, why guys like Kobe and Jordan were great.

But off the court -- again, which isn't what we're talking about -- that's anything but a character flaw. Robinson is a generally great human being. As compared to someone like Mike, a textbook bastard who comes across as pretty miserable to me.

[kaima]

Once again - I don't get the Hakeem love.

D-Rob had a historic, once in a decade type season.

1. David Robinson
2. Shaquille O Neal
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Scottie Pippen
5. Karl Malone

HM: Patrick Ewing

I don't see how Hakeem could not be a unamnimous #1 here. He won League MVP, DPOY and Finals MVP.

And I don't see how you could put Shaq #2 when he lost in round 1 with HCA.

He won DPOY with 1 vote.

Mutombo and Robinson were right there with him. If that one guy votes for Robinson instead of Hakeem, D-Rob is the DPOY.

What did Robinson really do in the playoffs defensively?

So they were tied defensively and Hakeem was a furlong behind Shaq and Robinson offensively.

This is the problem with the efficiency argument and meme. There's no way that Robinson was close to Hakeem as an offensive player. No way.

Hakeem had the greatest footwork in the game, was great at reading doubles and finding a shooter, and had a very nice 15-foot jumper.

Robinson...was athletic.

Robinson won 55 games while having literally no one on his team. You might as well put 5 guys from the stands on that team and he might still come up with 50+ wins.

And he played like one of the crowd in the post-season.

There was a game where Dennis Rodman outscored him.

Malone treated this guy like a disrespectful squirrel.

[Silver Bullet]

Wait.

Robinson clearly didn't choke in 99-00... in fact for a guy that was past his prime, he had a fairly dominant finals.

He did not choke in 89-90, when he dominated Phoenix in a loss.
didn't choke in 90-91 when he dominated the Warriors in a loss.

In 94 against Utah, he had his best game of the series in game 4 and had a pretty good game 1 - that is opposite of what you'd expect a choker to do.
Game 2, his 2nd option, Dale Ellis scores a grand total of 3 points.
In Game 3, his 2nd option, Dale Ellis outdoes his game 2 performance and scores 5 points.
Game 4, Ellis wakes up, but the rest of the supporting cast disappears.

Look, David Robinson had no business winning 55 games this year, or 59 games the year after. He had pathetic supporting casts. If he had won 43-44 games and gotten swept in the first round, he'd be getting the Kevin Garnett treatment, people would be saying, he had no support, he did everything possible but couldn't get it done, and look when he finally got help in Duncan, he won a ring. That is exactly how we've treated Kevin Garnett in this project.
But we in a way end up holding his success against him - because he overachieved in the regular season.

Swap Horry, Cassell and the Jet for Del Negro, Ellis and Elliot or whoever... and this is not even a point of conversation. One guy had a supporting cast that we now know, lives for the playoffs. The other guy has a supporting cast that goes 2-17 in big games. Of course he's gonna look bad.

[kaima]

Wait.

Robinson clearly didn't choke in 99-00... in fact for a guy that was past his prime, he had a fairly dominant finals.

In 99-00 the Spurs lost 1-3. And David Robinson had trouble shooting against smallball Phoenix Suns lineup.

As far as anything post-Duncan, I tend to agree that Robinson was better when he wasn't the team's best player. This is not a compliment when considering what we're analyzing in this thread.

In 94 against Utah, he had his best game of the series in game 4 and had a pretty good game 1 - that is opposite of what you'd expect a choker to do.

You're changing the subject, or trying to subvert it.

Robinson was a lacking player compared to competition. That doesn't necessarily relate to choking, as it wasn't something he could correct. Malone was just better.

Which is a far worse indictment in this context.

Further, for all the talk about Robinson's defense, Malone went for 29 per on the Spurs, with 36 in game 1 and 34 to close them out.

I watched Mutombo shut down the entire Sonics team. Robinson couldn't check one superstar post player. The same post player that took David Robinson's "historic season" and strangled it to death in four games.

Look, David Robinson had no business winning 55 games this year, or 59 games the year after. He had pathetic supporting casts. If he had won 43-44 games and gotten swept in the first round, he'd be getting the Kevin Garnett treatment, people would be saying, he had no support,]

The supporting cast argument has trouble flying when the guy you're defending with it played like a member of that selfsame group of duds.

Robinson did this crap three years in a row. His three best years. Malone owned him. So did Hakeem.

[Silver Bullet]

I don't see how Hakeem could not be a unamnimous #1 here. He won League MVP, DPOY and Finals MVP.

And I don't see how you could put Shaq #2 when he lost in round 1 with HCA.

He won DPOY with 1 vote.

Mutombo and Robinson were right there with him. If that one guy votes for Robinson instead of Hakeem, D-Rob is the DPOY.

What did Robinson really do in the playoffs defensively?

So they were tied defensively and Hakeem was a furlong behind Shaq and Robinson offensively.

This is the problem with the efficiency argument and meme. There's no way that Robinson was close to Hakeem as an offensive player. No way.

Hakeem had the greatest footwork in the game, was great at reading doubles and finding a shooter, and had a very nice 15-foot jumper.

Woah....

He caught fire a couple of times in the post season and people remember him as automatic from mid-post - a guy who couldn't be guarded or stopped. A guy who's dream shake was un guardable and who belongs in a all time great passing big conversation.

There were just as many times where he went 9 of 25, 9 of 26, 9 of 22, 9 of 23 8 of 25... there were weeks when his jumper was nowhere to be found. There were days when the guy would have a triple double because of double digit turnovers. I think he must've lead the league in the 90's in terms of having more turnovers than assists games. So no, he wasn't this el-magnifique passer you guys remember either. You guys remember the 94 post-season, and you remember that as the Hakeem Olajuwon that played all the time. He wasn't.
That's like remembering Pierce from the 08 Finals and thinking he's always that player. He's not.

[kaima]

Woah....

He caught fire a couple of times in the post season and people remember him as automatic from mid-post - a guy who couldn't be guarded or stopped. A guy who's dream shake was un guardable and who belongs in a all time great passing big conversation.

There were just as many times where he went 9 of 25, 9 of 26, 9 of 22, 9 of 23 8 of 25... there were weeks when his jumper was nowhere to be found.

You're again using the efficiency argument as a smokescreen.

Fact is, Hakeem was at another level on skillsets, thus allowing him to peak how he did. And Robinson's lack in this area is what caused him to fail so miserably when checked by Hakeem and Karl Malone.

Robinson V Hakeem is another prime example of how efficiency is often worth less than skill.

As for the rest of it, I notice you'd prefer to avoid direct debate.

I'd still like to know how Robinson's value can be so high when he got dominated so directly by other stars in the playoffs. The only way, is if you ignore these events.

[Optimism Prime]

He won DPOY with 1 vote.

Mutombo and Robinson were right there with him. If that one guy votes for Robinson instead of Hakeem, D-Rob is the DPOY.

What did Robinson really do in the playoffs defensively?

So they were tied defensively and Hakeem was a furlong behind Shaq and Robinson offensively.

This is the problem with the efficiency argument and meme. There's no way that Robinson was close to Hakeem as an offensive player. No way.

Hakeem had the greatest footwork in the game, was great at reading doubles and finding a shooter, and had a very nice 15-foot jumper.

Woah....

He caught fire a couple of times in the post season and people remember him as automatic from mid-post - a guy who couldn't be guarded or stopped. A guy who's dream shake was un guardable and who belongs in a all time great passing big conversation.

There were just as many times where he went 9 of 25, 9 of 26, 9 of 22, 9 of 23 8 of 25... there were weeks when his jumper was nowhere to be found. There were days when the guy would have a triple double because of double digit turnovers. I think he must've lead the league in the 90's in terms of having more turnovers than assists games. So no, he wasn't this el-magnifique passer you guys remember either. You guys remember the 94 post-season, and you remember that as the Hakeem Olajuwon that played all the time. He wasn't.
That's like remembering Pierce from the 08 Finals and thinking he's always that player. He's not.

Olauwon had one double-digit turnover game in the 90s. Not sure if there's a way to look for the "more turnovers than assists" but he was fifth in the league in the 90s with games of <5 ast and >5 tos. Behind Kemp, Ewing, Mourning, and Malone.

I'm one of his staunchest defenders, but I'll never claim he was a great passer. However, his footwork was impeccable.

[Gongxi]

No time to explain, sorry. Most of you guys know how I come to my conclusions anyway:

1- David Robinson
2- Hakeem Olajuwon
3- Shaquille O'Neal
4- Scottie Pippen
5- Patrick Ewing

I think this is the first time Malone's been off my list in forever, and it was close. Barkley would've been there if he was healthier.

[kaima]

Olauwon had one double-digit turnover game in the 90s. Not sure if there's a way to look for the "more turnovers than assists" but he was fifth in the league in the 90s with games of <5 ast and >5 tos. Behind Kemp, Ewing, Mourning, and Malone.

I'm one of his staunchest defenders, but I'll never claim he was a great passer. However, his footwork was impeccable.

He wasn't necessarily a great post-passer. I'd say Malone was better. Barkley was an underrated passer as well during that period. Vlade gets a mention.

But. The key is that he was very good at making reads, quickly. Is that the same as great passing? While it's a part of it, not automatically, no.

The effect that his reads had on the game was huge, however.

[Baller 24]

lol just wow

[kaima]

You guys remember the 94 post-season, and you remember that as the Hakeem Olajuwon that played all the time.

Shouldn't that be a huge standard-bearer for this season?

It seems that because Hakeem peaked in 94, you're saying that he shouldn't be ranked accordingly. The level of heterodoxic illogic you're passing off here is stunning.

Your argument now is that because Hakeem had years where he wasn't as good, we should rank him lower in a vote that's all about the year where he WAS that good.

Ridiculous.

[CellarDoor]

1. Dream
2. Shaq
3. DRob
4. Ewing
5. Pippen

[sp6r=underrated]

I guess I should vote.

1. Hakeem: The middle year in his trilogy. He was the best player in the NBA from beginning to end.
2. Ewing: Best defensive player on a historically great defensive team. Ewing was also the only consistently competent player on offense for He turned in a great playoff run before the disaster of the NBA finals.
3. Robinson: just an awful first round series against Utah does mar his RS campaign the same way Dirk's campaign against GSW helped undermine his play in 07.
4. Shaq: similar season to Robinson
5. Pippen: His play really was of high quality this year. In absolute disruptive force on defense combined with great play-making abilities this year.

[semi-sentient]

Guys, when Gervin and Thompson scored like crazy on last day of season it was “good”, but when Robinson did it it’s “bad”? Or when great Larry Bird scored 60, when he was fighting for his 60 to last seconds despite game was already over, we are talking about is as something “good”. But whatever Robinson has done it’s “bad”? It shows that he was selfish? Rally?

Robinson has never been a selfish player, except for in that game. His intent was clearly to take the scoring title away from Shaq, and the entire team was in on it (much like Wilt's 100-point game). I have no respect for stuff like that. It's stat-padding, and it's lame. I thought it was lame back then, and I still think it's lame now.

Having said that, I can understand how fans of the team or player wouldn't see it that way, but I've never been either despite having lived in San Antonio most of my life. I always respected Robinson and liked him as a player, but I really didn't like him doing that. I probably would have felt differently if this game came in the middle of the season or something, but it didn't.

Whatever. It doesn't change my rankings for this season and would never penalize a player for that in any of these rankings. D-Rob is still my #2 -- I just don't like that he did that.

On a hypocritical side note, I didn't have much problem with the Lakers force-feeding Shaq against the Clippers when he dropped 61 on his b-day. Heh. On the other hand, he didn't steal away an accomplishment from another player with his performance.

[kaima]

I don't fully understand why Malone isn't ranking more.

Top 5 regular season, no less than top 3 post-season. Took it to Robinson who, if he's as good as being argued by many, should mean quite a lot. Speaks very well of his post defense. Carried Utah offensively in the post-season.

Good team success.

I don't see how he ranks below the top 5.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I can't see anyway Robinson is ahead of Hakeem. Hakeem was the MVP, Finals MVP, DPOY, All-NBA/All-D 1st. That's like a perfect season award-wise. DRob was 2nd best in everything, and lost in the 1st round with HCA.